Kyron's General Discussion Thread for 2012-13

[ami]

JMO, but since I have family in the area...I think this investigation was botched from the beginning and LE too quickly focused on one person and ignored other leads. Thats why the civil case was dropped against TMH. Maybe, Desiree is beginning to see other possible perps. Just speculation on my part since I don't see how TMH could have disappeared KH so quickly and so thoroughly that he has not been found. MOO

Then why would she say she dropped the suit so it wouldn't interfere with the ongoing criminal investigation? Do you think Desiree's legal team lied, or do you think they're for some reason hiding their secret beliefs that it could be someone else?

It seems like there has to be a string of really unlikely circuitous stories to explain any way that TMH is not guilty. Either the story is straightforward (she either killed him or passed him off to someone else) or it's extremely convoluted and coincidental, with all of her behavior accidentally coinciding with a crime she knew nothing about. And then if innocent of the Kyron crime, she would have to also coincidentally not really care enough about him to grieve, but party and do booty calls and innocently buy and then throw out burner phones right after he's gone? I mean if she's innocent, she was hideously unlucky in her accidental sketchiness and escalation of behavior before he left, and her coincidental lack of grief after he's gone.

As far as her "limited evaluation" (http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/08/terri_horman_agrees_to_limited.html)

"Husband took it upon himself to essentially terminate Wife's primary parental role with [K]," the filing states. "Wife anticipates that an evaluation will support her contention that Husband's actions were not in [K's] best interests."

I love that now, 3 years later, she starts to think that maybe she should open the door to the idea of trying to see her former-baby. Good mom.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

Terri Horman agrees to limited evaluation for parenting time with daughter | OregonLive.com http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/08/terri_horman_agrees_to_limited.html

snip
Terri Moulton Horman agrees with her estranged husband's request that an expert should evaluate whether she should have any parenting time with the couple's 4-year-old daughter, Kiara, court papers say.

But Horman, who has been a focus of the criminal investigation into the June 2010 disappearance of her stepson, Kyron, would seek limits on such an evaluation, her attorney Peter Bunch wrote in a filing earlier this month in the Hormans' divorce case.

:seeya: Thank You, freefallzzzz, for this update.


This snippet from above link says it all about TH, IMO :

"So far she has chosen her privilege against self-incrimination over a relationship with her daughter," Kaine Horman's lawyer, Brett Engel, wrote."

Obviously IMO, she has "something" to hide about Kyron :banghead:

:moo:

 

[dog.gone.cute]

JMO, but since I have family in the area...I think this investigation was botched from the beginning and LE too quickly focused on one person and ignored other leads. Thats why the civil case was dropped against TMH. Maybe, Desiree is beginning to see other possible perps. Just speculation on my part since I don't see how TMH could have disappeared KH so quickly and so thoroughly that he has not been found. MOO

BBM: LE was a great disadvantage from the get-go : LE was notified approximately 7+ hours AFTER Kyron was last seen at the school ... that is a significant amount of LOST TIME, which may have led to finding Kyron ...

JMO but Terri "got lucky" that no one from the school reported Kyron "missing" from school or class, or even the talent show that day ...

Again JMO, but that is why she allegedly drove around for almost 2 hours -- supposedly trying to put the baby to sleep in the car -- just in case she got a call from the school that Kyron was not there !

:doh: The so-called doctor's appointment "according to Terri" ... but a doctor's appointment should not have taken all day and Kyron should have been back at the school at some point ...

I truly believe that LE investigated anything and everything, which turned up nothing ... everything led BACK to Terri ...

:moo:

 

[human]

What kind of self incrimination would make it so you choose not to see your child?

Yup, she is innocent----NOT!

 

[ami]

What kind of self incrimination would make it so you choose not to see your child?

Yup, she is innocent----NOT!

I've honestly spent a lot of time wondering about this over the years. From the hypothetical standpoint of Terri being innocent, in the beginning when she chose not to speak with police to avoid incriminating herself but with the result of losing her daughter temporarily, I could kind of see how an innocent person would make the painful choice to lose the ability to see their baby **in the short term** to ensure they would NOT lose their parenting rights in the long run. However it's now been 3 years. And she hasn't been engaged in constant legal battles to win her rights back.

At this point I can not think of a single reason an innocent mother would lose 3 years of their baby's life - what could she possibly fear MORE than that, when it may turn into a lifetime without her daughter even if she's not in prison? It doesn't seem like the original "short term loss to avoid long term loss" applies anymore. It's no longer short term. Now her compromise is "long term loss of my child to prevent long term loss of my freedom" -- she's giving away her daughter to stay out of jail, banking on this standoff lasting forever.

Could she seriously be innocent of the crime, but have completely innocent information to share **through her lawyer** that would nevertheless frame her for a crime she didn't commit? What words, ideas, thoughts, activities could an innocent TMH have that would make her appear guilty and give LE that extra piece of evidence they needed to ensure a guilty verdict? It makes no sense that way.

Let's say she's guilty of perjury. Let's say she's innocent of the crime, but under stress she lied about something related to Kyron's disappearance to avoid looking guilty. At this point, making a deal with LE to share the innocent but potentially harmful truth - in exchange for getting her daughter back? Seems like a no brainer. So it can't be that.

Playing devil's advocate that TMH is innocent but an unfortunate victim of coincidental circumstance relating to Kyron's disappearance - what information would an innocent TMH AND her attorney be so insistent to keep from LE that the sacrifice of her motherhood is the best option?

 

[human]

I've honestly spent a lot of time wondering about this over the years. From the hypothetical standpoint of Terri being innocent, in the beginning when she chose not to speak with police to avoid incriminating herself but with the result of losing her daughter temporarily, I could kind of see how an innocent person would make the painful choice to lose the ability to see their baby **in the short term** to ensure they would NOT lose their parenting rights in the long run. However it's now been 3 years. And she hasn't been engaged in constant legal battles to win her rights back.

At this point I can not think of a single reason an innocent mother would lose 3 years of their baby's life - what could she possibly fear MORE than that, when it may turn into a lifetime without her daughter even if she's not in prison? It doesn't seem like the original "short term loss to avoid long term loss" applies anymore. It's no longer short term. Now her compromise is "long term loss of my child to prevent long term loss of my freedom" -- she's giving away her daughter to stay out of jail, banking on this standoff lasting forever.

Could she seriously be innocent of the crime, but have completely innocent information to share **through her lawyer** that would nevertheless frame her for a crime she didn't commit? What words, ideas, thoughts, activities could an innocent TMH have that would make her appear guilty and give LE that extra piece of evidence they needed to ensure a guilty verdict? It makes no sense that way.

Let's say she's guilty of perjury. Let's say she's innocent of the crime, but under stress she lied about something related to Kyron's disappearance to avoid looking guilty. At this point, making a deal with LE to share the innocent but potentially harmful truth - in exchange for getting her daughter back? Seems like a no brainer. So it can't be that.

Playing devil's advocate that TMH is innocent but an unfortunate victim of coincidental circumstance relating to Kyron's disappearance - what information would an innocent TMH AND her attorney be so insistent to keep from LE that the sacrifice of her motherhood is the best option?

It seems like most parents would move heaven and earth to see their child.

TMH supporters have tried to portray TMH as a loving mother.

Desiree says there are hateful emails.

People have given instances of abusive behavior.

I hope people come forward with that info.

We know from other narcissistic examples that they never see themselves in the wrong. Maybe she thinks she can beat the system at this point.

She may want to move ahead in her life. Boyfriend, job, gym, whatever, but the stigma of uncaring mother is over her head.

My guess is that she will not allow much in an eval. She will say she tried, but Kaine made it impossible.

See? Good mother, but nothing to be done through no fault of her's.

 

[ami]

This line from the article (really from the filing) angers me:

"Husband took it upon himself to essentially terminate Wife's primary parental role with [K]," the filing states.

There was a court hearing! Kaine had to file something to do this - HE didn't terminate her rights, the courts did, and Terri had the right to fight this and chose not to.

 

[ami]

By the way, in the comments of that article there is a link to the actual documents. I'm not sure how to get a copy that isn't through some sketchy website, so I'll just leave it at that unless a mod ok's it or someone sleuthier than me can find a legit copy.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

This line from the article (really from the filing) angers me:

"Husband took it upon himself to essentially terminate Wife's primary parental role with [K]," the filing states.

There was a court hearing! Kaine had to file something to do this - HE didn't terminate her rights, the courts did, and Terri had the right to fight this and chose not to.

:seeya: Glad you posted this ... I agree : it was the court who terminated Terri's rights, NOT Kaine ...

:waitasec: Actually, it was Terri herself ... KWIM ?

:moo:

 

[JoCoKSEyes]

I started out very much in the "Terri did it" camp. Not anymore. It's all rumor and innuendo. There is no evidence. Innocence is to be presumed in our country.

 

[ami]

I started out very much in the "Terri did it" camp. Not anymore. It's all rumor and innuendo. There is no evidence. Innocence is to be presumed in our country.

So then no one is guilty, right? If the public isn't privy to the evidence, then every human is innocent of killing and/or kidnapping him. No one did it. Kyron was never murdered.

 

[MissJ]

Then why would she say she dropped the suit so it wouldn't interfere with the ongoing criminal investigation? Do you think Desiree's legal team lied, or do you think they're for some reason hiding their secret beliefs that it could be someone else?

It seems like there has to be a string of really unlikely circuitous stories to explain any way that TMH is not guilty. Either the story is straightforward (she either killed him or passed him off to someone else) or it's extremely convoluted and coincidental, with all of her behavior accidentally coinciding with a crime she knew nothing about. And then if innocent of the Kyron crime, she would have to also coincidentally not really care enough about him to grieve, but party and do booty calls and innocently buy and then throw out burner phones right after he's gone? I mean if she's innocent, she was hideously unlucky in her accidental sketchiness and escalation of behavior before he left, and her coincidental lack of grief after he's gone.

As far as her "limited evaluation" (http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/08/terri_horman_agrees_to_limited.html)



I love that now, 3 years later, she starts to think that maybe she should open the door to the idea of trying to see her former-baby. Good mom.

No I don't think DY's attorneys lied. I just think there is a lot we don't know.
Maybe TMH is guilty. I'm just not sure. JMO

 

[sarah7855]

I've honestly spent a lot of time wondering about this over the years. From the hypothetical standpoint of Terri being innocent, in the beginning when she chose not to speak with police to avoid incriminating herself but with the result of losing her daughter temporarily, I could kind of see how an innocent person would make the painful choice to lose the ability to see their baby **in the short term** to ensure they would NOT lose their parenting rights in the long run. However it's now been 3 years. And she hasn't been engaged in constant legal battles to win her rights back.

At this point I can not think of a single reason an innocent mother would lose 3 years of their baby's life - what could she possibly fear MORE than that, when it may turn into a lifetime without her daughter even if she's not in prison? It doesn't seem like the original "short term loss to avoid long term loss" applies anymore. It's no longer short term. Now her compromise is "long term loss of my child to prevent long term loss of my freedom" -- she's giving away her daughter to stay out of jail, banking on this standoff lasting forever.

Could she seriously be innocent of the crime, but have completely innocent information to share **through her lawyer** that would nevertheless frame her for a crime she didn't commit? What words, ideas, thoughts, activities could an innocent TMH have that would make her appear guilty and give LE that extra piece of evidence they needed to ensure a guilty verdict? It makes no sense that way.

Let's say she's guilty of perjury. Let's say she's innocent of the crime, but under stress she lied about something related to Kyron's disappearance to avoid looking guilty. At this point, making a deal with LE to share the innocent but potentially harmful truth - in exchange for getting her daughter back? Seems like a no brainer. So it can't be that.

Playing devil's advocate that TMH is innocent but an unfortunate victim of coincidental circumstance relating to Kyron's disappearance - what information would an innocent TMH AND her attorney be so insistent to keep from LE that the sacrifice of her motherhood is the best option?

ITA with everything you said. Wish I could thank this post 100 times!!

 

[dog.gone.cute]

I started out very much in the "Terri did it" camp. Not anymore. It's all rumor and innuendo. There is no evidence. Innocence is to be presumed in our country.

1st BBM: The public has not been made privy as to what evidence LE does have ...

JMO but I do believe they have "some" evidence against Terri and that her "stories" do not fit the evidence and/or statements of others ...

However, I think LE and the DA have not "charged" TH -- and/or her accomplice(s) which JMO I think she had -- because they do NOT have a body or a "crime scene" ...


2nd BBM: I totally agree that a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty ...

However, in this case, Terri did NOTHING to help find Kyron :banghead:

TH's and her BFF DDS "actions" speak louder than words, IMO ...

:moo:

 

[JoCoKSEyes]

So then no one is guilty, right? If the public isn't privy to the evidence, then every human is innocent of killing and/or kidnapping him. No one did it. Kyron was never murdered.

Yea, that's exactly what I was saying.

 

[Donjeta]

Jmo the right to be presumed innocent means that the state has to present convincing evidence in a court of law before you can be convicted of a crime and punished. It does not mean that absence of evidence proves that you didn't do it. There are plenty of guilty parties out there who get away with it.

Still, she supports the idea of reviewing possible ways she could see her daughter, the filing states. K has been living exclusively with her father, Kaine Horman, for the past three years.
"Husband took it upon himself to essentially terminate Wife's primary parental role with Kiara Horman," the filing states. "Wife anticipates that an evaluation will support her contention that Husband's actions were not in K's best interests."

Okay so why does she think of this now, three years later, when Kaine has filed a request for an evaluation? Why didn't she file one? She could have fought to see her daughter but chose not to. What about her daughter's best interests?

 

[human]

I don't know how it works there, but where I live if you have had a child removed, you have to work to be able to get the child back.

Going to chemical dependency treatment. Taking parenting classes. Having supervised visitation so that you can be evaluated about your interactions.

If, and to me it is a big if, she does get some kind of visitation, I hope it is with conditions.

I would think her hateful emails about a missing child would enter into her suitability evaluation.

<modsnip>. Sorry, no link

 

[ami]

Jmo the right to be presumed innocent means that the state has to present convincing evidence in a court of law before you can be convicted of a crime and punished. It does not mean that absence of evidence proves that you didn't do it. There are plenty of guilty parties out there who get away with it.

Okay so why does she think of this now, three years later, when Kaine has filed a request for an evaluation? Why didn't she file one? She could have fought to see her daughter but chose not to. What about her daughter's best interests?

It's amazing how many people seem to believe that a legal presumption of innocence means that a crime wasn't committed. Like someone could commit murder, but wiping another human life off the earth never really happened until the US court system finds them legally responsible. Wish the US court system could bring Nicole Brown and Caylee Anthony back to life since apparently no one ever murdered them.

 

[CanManEh]

Iam predicting a lot of news on this case coming up real soon..I can feel it.

 

[MissJ]

Iam predicting a lot of news on this case coming up real soon..I can feel it.

I'm thinking the same thing.JMO