MA - Conrad Roy, 18, urged by friend, commits suicide, Fairhaven, 13 July 2014

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The DA is rolling the dice with an emphatic yes.

Thank you. I'm asking because I'm fuzzy on the clarity of the law. I wish we had a clearer picture on the definition of the law. It has me thinking her attorney is trying to mixup the definition of the duty to rescue law with manslaughter. At least it is mixed up to me. Also, with new technology with cell phones, texting, video chat. Has the law caught up with technology making it like the person is there alongside a victim?

I keep coming up with more questions rather than finding answers in this case.
 
Even her perceived defense of her actions ie "I told him to get back in because I knew he would just do it at another time" doesnt cut it. She doesnt get to decide when it is time for someone to die or not. And yet she did. Because she didnt call anyone to rescue him.

For me it is just that simple.
 
Her parents defend her in this article by saying:
She is a quiet, kind, and sympathetic young girl.

Not according to her friends in the statements made by LE/DA. She is a needy, self-aggrandizing, bragging girl who cries wolf.


LINK HERE
 
I don't believe anyone should be charged for someone else's suicide. Suicide is a choice people make to end their own life. He did not have to do it and yet he did.

We have gone crazy to a point where no one is responsible for what they choose to do anymore.

I don't think anyone is trying to absolve Conrad of his role. Michelle's role however is similiar to that of an accessory or accomplice. She participated in the planning and execution of his suicide from steps a through z in all the planning entailed.

She'd be responsible if they planned on him murdering someone else, or if he killed someone during their commission of a felony crime. She bares some responsibility in their planning of his murdering himself. Murder is murder, whether one does it to themself or another.
 
Conrad had been rescued in his previous suicide attempt by a girl he was friends with, right? It is mind numbing to believe that if he had picked just about anyone else this time, perhaps, he would have been rescued again.
 
IF that was my son, this girl would be wishing ....just saying, so so so evil. SO disgusting.
 
IMO, if this goes to trial with a jury, it's going to come down to whether that jury follows the letter of the law or the spirit of the law. But, in either case, it's probable that new laws will be written because of the alleged actions of this girl.
BBM
I think you're right. I've been torn as to whether the girl is criminally responsible or not for someone else's suicide because there have always been mean people who do and say things to hurt other people. But I think technology/social media will change how hurtful words are viewed. I think that's the most astounding part of the charges against MC -- it is her words that incriminate her, they are accessible to LE and they cannot be erased. Thirty years ago, someone could have walked a person through a suicide over the phone and LE would not have knowledge of what was said.

I can think of at least two people I've known with personality disorders -- people who are mean and manipulative and especially target people who are vulnerable. Some people are more resilient to their attacks; others are not. I have a tendency toward depression (and mental illness runs in my family), so I try to avoid people who make me feel worthless when possible. I worked at a job for more than 12 years where there were several mean people (one who, IMO, definitely had a personality disorder and another had bipolar disorder). I was made to do physical work I wasn't supposed to do (I had already gone through vocational rehab 2x for a back injury) and they treated me like I was stupid (I was the most educated person there but had the most menial job). I really suffered physically for a few years (even lost weight when I was already underweight), but when the job became less physical I had a cheerier attitude -- which the mean people really hated! Then, they still criticized me for everything I did and said -- even for things I did out of courtesy. It only took one person to be mean, and others followed along because they thought it was funny! Ultimately, though, the physical work took a toll on me which threw me into depression and I had to go through counseling because my condition is irreversible and causes me a lot of pain. Fortunately (depends on the way you look at it), I lost my job at the time I was consulting doctors for treatment. They also targeted another woman who was going through a difficult divorce and custody battle.

After I was unemployed and did some research, I discovered that my coworkers fit perfectly into the description of workplace bullies and that the behaviors present in my workplace aren't that uncommon. We know how bullies in elementary school can affect young children, but bullying is not a behavior limited to childhood. Bullying becomes more serious and with more serious consequences in the teenage years and into adulthood because bullies have learned how to manipulate people's emotions and lives. Mean people do target people who are especially vulnerable and try to wear them down. I think MC was able to do so with Conrad because of social media. Although they lived an hour apart, she was able to bombard him with 1,000's of text messages. It wasn't like he could escape those messages unless he just ignored them. But, I think he was probably smitten with MC. She acted like she loved him and he believed her, and that made him feel good about himself. To MC, though, I guess Conrad was just a toy and she enjoyed playing with his mind. Some of her texts make me wonder if there were friends privy to what she was doing -- I think that has been mentioned before. As I read more on this thread and think of my own experiences, I do think there should be legal consequences for this type of behavior.
 
Some information on involuntary manslaughter in MA:

http://criminal.attorneywdkickham.com/involuntary-manslaughter.html

Involuntary Manslaughter is defined as: 1) An unlawful killing that was unintentionally caused as the result of wanton or reckless conduct that a defendant engaged in; <snip>. In the legal context, &#8220;unintentionally&#8221; means that while the defendant did intend to commit the act that ultimately caused the death of the victim, the defendant did not intend to actually cause the death itself.

<snip>

In order to obtain a conviction of Involuntary Manslaughter, the prosecution must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, the following legal elements:

  1. That the defendant caused an unlawful, while unintentional, killing. In other words, there was no legal justification for the killing (such as self-defense,) and the defendant intended to commit the actor conduct that ultimately caused the death. However, the prosecution does not need to prove that the defendant intended to cause the death that resulted from his conduct;
  2. That the victim&#8217;s death was caused by wanton or reckless conduct, meaning that the defendant's actions created a high degree of likelihood that substantial and serious harm would result to another person; and
  3. The wanton or reckless conduct that the defendant engaged in, in fact caused the victim&#8217;s death.

I think we have seen the above 3 with the planning together of using the generator, 'let me know when you are going to do it', 'get back in the truck'.

IIUC, duty to rescue is more civil than criminal? IF so, I believe MC had the legal responsibility to notify Conrad's parents she was in contact with him when she inserted herself into communicating with Conrads parents while they were looking for him.


This isn't going to get to court soon enough for me.
 
She wanted attention. She's got it now. I hope her life is miserable. I hope her parents realize what a sick, twisted person she is and get her some serious treatment before she harms others. If it's Munchausen's by Proxy, her future children are at risk. This particular tragedy with her boyfriend might not have been MBP, but the attention she got afterwards that she enjoyed very well could have ingrained MBP into her personality and put others at risk in her future.

I don't know if actually qualifies as MBP, but I thought the exact same thing when I first heard about this. Good point about her future children...isn't that a chilling thought?
 
MBP isn't just about getting sympathy. It's about getting attention. This girl relished the attention she received. She sought out the attention to the point of organizing a fundraiser in his honor. I'm not saying it's MBP. It's possible MBP, but it's most likely psychopathy. But you're right about nobody would even consider MBP if it was a male.

Well, that's because the vast majority of those afflicted with MBP are women.

The victim's mother was the perpetrator in 76.5% of the cases, the father in 6.7%.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Münchausen_syndrome_by_proxy#cite_note-sheridan-7

See source 7 in the bibliography
 
I am trying to remember another case besides the teens bullying the girl from England who committed suicide. I think the parents sued the aughter's high school teacher who influenced her while at college? I can't remeber the details. Does anyone know which case this was?

I am trying to see if the same/similar law was used in charging for all these cases. TIA
 
I highly doubt if she suffers from MBP.
But I would be looking at sociopathic tendencies, psychopathy, narcissism, or BPD.
I would think those should be investigated.

All moo.
 
BBM
I think you're right. I've been torn as to whether the girl is criminally responsible or not for someone else's suicide because there have always been mean people who do and say things to hurt other people. But I think technology/social media will change how hurtful words are viewed. I think that's the most astounding part of the charges against MC -- it is her words that incriminate her, they are accessible to LE and they cannot be erased. Thirty years ago, someone could have walked a person through a suicide over the phone and LE would not have knowledge of what was said.

I can think of at least two people I've known with personality disorders -- people who are mean and manipulative and especially target people who are vulnerable. Some people are more resilient to their attacks; others are not. I have a tendency toward depression (and mental illness runs in my family), so I try to avoid people who make me feel worthless when possible. I worked at a job for more than 12 years where there were several mean people (one who, IMO, definitely had a personality disorder and another had bipolar disorder). I was made to do physical work I wasn't supposed to do (I had already gone through vocational rehab 2x for a back injury) and they treated me like I was stupid (I was the most educated person there but had the most menial job). I really suffered physically for a few years (even lost weight when I was already underweight), but when the job became less physical I had a cheerier attitude -- which the mean people really hated! Then, they still criticized me for everything I did and said -- even for things I did out of courtesy. It only took one person to be mean, and others followed along because they thought it was funny! Ultimately, though, the physical work took a toll on me which threw me into depression and I had to go through counseling because my condition is irreversible and causes me a lot of pain. Fortunately (depends on the way you look at it), I lost my job at the time I was consulting doctors for treatment. They also targeted another woman who was going through a difficult divorce and custody battle.

After I was unemployed and did some research, I discovered that my coworkers fit perfectly into the description of workplace bullies and that the behaviors present in my workplace aren't that uncommon. We know how bullies in elementary school can affect young children, but bullying is not a behavior limited to childhood. Bullying becomes more serious and with more serious consequences in the teenage years and into adulthood because bullies have learned how to manipulate people's emotions and lives. Mean people do target people who are especially vulnerable and try to wear them down. I think MC was able to do so with Conrad because of social media. Although they lived an hour apart, she was able to bombard him with 1,000's of text messages. It wasn't like he could escape those messages unless he just ignored them. But, I think he was probably smitten with MC. She acted like she loved him and he believed her, and that made him feel good about himself. To MC, though, I guess Conrad was just a toy and she enjoyed playing with his mind. Some of her texts make me wonder if there were friends privy to what she was doing -- I think that has been mentioned before. As I read more on this thread and think of my own experiences, I do think there should be legal consequences for this type of behavior.

Sorry you had to endure that, Indy.

As a side note, most workplaces have incorporated strict policies through their HR Depts spelling out anti-bullying/harassment protocols & reporting procedures in recent years.
 
There was a dateline special with some guy who would go to suicide forums and pose as a person who wants to help others. He had different female names that he used to strike up conversation with different suicidal teens. Anyway he was coercing and urging them to kill themselves in front of the screen so he can see. One kid did it. Another girl at college that he was coercing to commit suicide decided she wanted to drown so she jumped off a bridge. Plus there was somebody else that tried but backed out. Anyway; after reviewing the forums and emails from the girl computer, they realized that this guy was acting like he was making a suicide pact with different teens and had them go first. Long story short; The feds caught him and could only charge him with minor stuff. But he was like the suicidal forum angel of death. That dateline special had me in tears btw.
 
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/38739087/ns/dateline_nbc/t/dangerous-connection/

His name was Melchert-Dinkel. The girl name was Nadia. He helped and trick 6 people to kill themselves. Some thought he was going to kill himself with them. Some people lived in different countries. He got no real time. Read the dateline transcript I posted and you will be amazed at this case. Him and MC can be related by how they was making sure people went through with the suicide. Shocking story.
 
FARIBAULT, Minn. - A former nurse in Minnesota who admitted to going online years ago and preying upon suicidal people &#8212; encouraging two to take their lives &#8212; must serve nearly six months in jail as part of a sentence handed down Wednesday.

William Melchert-Dinkel was sentenced to three years in prison in the deaths of an English man and a Canadian woman, but he won't have to serve the prison term if he complies with conditions of his probation that include the jail time.

In Minnesota, state prisons house serious offenders while local cells are for less serious offenders.

Melchert-Dinkel must report to jail on Oct. 24.

"I am sorry... for my actions and what I have done," Melchert-Dinkel said in court before he was sentenced. "I have repented."

The 52-year-old was convicted in September of one count of assisting a suicide and one count of attempting to assist a suicide in the deaths of Mark Drybrough, 32, of Coventry, England and Nadia Kajouji, 18, of Brampton, Ont..

The convictions came after the Minnesota Supreme Court narrowed the state's assisted-suicide law and reversed earlier convictions.

Kajouji jumped into a frozen river in 2008. She was a student at Carleton University in Ottawa at the time. Drybrough hanged himself in 2005.

__

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2014/10/15/ex-nurse-guilty-of-assisting-suicide-gets-jail/
 
His name was Melchert-Dinkel. The girl name was Nadia. He helped and trick 6 people to kill themselves. Some thought he was going to kill himself with them. Some people lived in different countries. He got no real time. Read the dateline transcript I posted and you will be amazed at this case. Him and MC can be related by how they was making sure people went through with the suicide. Shocking story.
He probably did something like this long before forums. MC could be the younger version of MD when he was just starting out.
 
From the wiki of Melchert-Dinkel, the following ruling could pose a serious problem for the Machechuttes case.

On July 27, 2012, the Minnesota Court of Appeals affirmed the conviction. The Minnesota Supreme Court subsequently agreed to review the case. On March 19, 2014, the supreme court reversed the conviction and remanded.[40] The high court held that the Minnesota statute under which Melchert-Dinkel had been convicted was unconstitutional in part. The court held that merely advising or encouraging suicide was speech protected by the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, and that those prohibitions were unconstitutional. It went on to hold, however, that speech which actually assisted a suicide was not protected.
Can you believe the bolded?

This means that even if Massachusetts convicts, she'll likely get off after she appeals to the state and federal superior courts. There's not only court precedence but the constitution angle too.

Well, at the very least her life will be ruined by the publicity. Until she marries, any college or employer or potential friend can google her name and find out all about her.
 
Note, it also says speech which actually assisted a suicide was not protected. Telling someone to get back in the truck knowing it was full of lethal poisonous gas assisted in Conrads death.
 
From the wiki of Melchert-Dinkel, the following ruling could pose a serious problem for the Machechuttes case.
Can you believe the bolded?
"On July 27, 2012, the Minnesota Court of Appeals affirmed the conviction. The Minnesota Supreme Court subsequently agreed to review the case. On March 19, 2014, the supreme court reversed the conviction and remanded.[40] The high court held that the Minnesota statute under which Melchert-Dinkel had been convicted was unconstitutional in part. The court held that merely advising or encouraging suicide was speech protected by the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, and that those prohibitions were unconstitutional. It went on to hold, however, that speech which actually assisted a suicide was not protected."
This means that even if Massachusetts convicts, she'll likely get off after she appeals to the state and federal superior courts. There's not only court precedence but the constitution angle too.
Well, at the very least her life will be ruined by the publicity. Until she marries, any college or employer or potential friend can google her name and find out all about her.

Good thought - checking further than the short newspaper articles about Melchert-Dinkel case.

Michelle Carter is charged w manslaughter under Massachusetts criminal law
................................not assisting suicide under Minn. crim law.

Q: Is that MN ruling a 'court precedence' applicable to Mass. case?
A: IDTS: Two diff st. laws, w two diff sets of elements of the crimes.

Q: Does MA case have same U.S. Constitution First A'mt angle - protected speech - as Minn. case?
A: IDK, imo, depends on language of Mass. manslaughter statute.

Not saying she is a model citizen. Imo, downright despicable, immoral, reprehensible, disgusting, & more.
I'm not sure (yet) if she committed criminal manslaughter, beyond a reasonable doubt.
JM2cts.
_______________________________________________________________________
IANAL and don't play one on TV either.
 
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