MA - Remains of 3 infants found, Erika Murray charged, Blackstone, Sept 2014

[SaucyGal]

I don't recall reading which floor the bathroom was on in any of the articles. I just recall them saying "alone, on a bathroom floor" and it being mentioned there was only a single bathroom. However, I could be very wrong since there have been varying reports. If you happen to remember or have a link to one/any that refer to an upstairs bathroom, will you post it? I'll admit I probably haven't read or seen nearly as many stories/articles as some of you so I may very well have missed it. TIA

 

[iamnotagolem]

I think it has always been stated there was only one bathroom on the main floor, which is why it seems so unlikely that RR would have been unaware of the state of the house and the birth of all of the children, since the family shared one bathroom in which she gave birth.

 

[wenwe4]

Only 1 bathroom on main floor? yet I have read articles that she gave birth in upstairs bathroom????

It was one of those Heslam reports that said upstairs bath IIRC. I thought that was very confusing at the time too because I was looking for info about the layout of the home from the different news reports. I think there was only 1 bath on the main floor and maybe they meant upstairs meaning not basement sort of thing - who knows.

So I am still trying to get the layout of this house straight in my mind - even with pictures. Oblio said stairs were straight ahead upon opening the front door. At top of stairs there is a room to the left and one to the right and a 3rd door straight ahead that is a closet.

From the pics Saucygal posted there were 2 bedrooms on the upstairs left side of the middle of the home (if facing the front door). What was on the upper right side of the home? Were there more bedrooms on the right main floor and right upper floor?

 

[iamnotagolem]

I'm wondering the bedroom situation, too. It was always my impression (opinion) that all 3 bedrooms were upstairs and none on the main floor. I thought the main floor consisted of the kitchen, dining room, living room, and bathroom (and stairway leading to 2nd floor).

 

[Oblio]

View attachment 61996

I'm pretty sure it's only one bedroom over the livingroom/kitchen/dining on the left of the house, then the closet in the middle, and the other bedroom to the right. That has to be a closet in the middle, as there is no gable or windows.

 

[Oblio]

Okay, this is what I'm picturing. Now I messed up, the front door should be more centered, and thus the stairs, as well. The teal area to the left of the stairs is what I'm not sure about. It was really unclear to me if that area was a room in the hallway itself, or if the bedroom butted up to the stairs. I'm thinking it might have been a walk through room or closet, and then with the other closet at the back, clearly torn up/drywall removed. Now downstairs on the right is where I was speculating the bedroom was, but as someone mentioned up thread, often garret bedrooms are not counted. Given how compact and symmetrical all the door and window placements are, this makes for an extra compact living/dining/kitchen/bathroom area. The space to the right of the stairs is nearly as big, so I do think there are indeed three (very small) bedrooms down stairs.

 

[sapofamily]

Yes, I'd say we are looking at 1 (large) BR to the left of the stairs, 1 BR to the right of the stairs (second floor), and a closet straight ahead at the top of the stairs. My grandparents had a Capecod that was built early in the 1900's and this was the layout of their house.

Looking at the main floor (from the back of the house), it appears that the (galley) kitchen has an exterior entry (FIRST PHOTO), bathroom shares a wall with the stove wall (SECOND PHOTO), then I think there's a master bedroom next to the bathroom. This is all speculation based upon the window sizes and it appears there's a television on a dresser in the 1st photo. The THIRD PHOTO shows same view as SECOND PHOTO before demo.


If entering the front door, I think the dining area (?) would be to the left of the stairs and the living room is to the right.
IMO, the stairs to the basement are directly across from the one and only bathroom...which would be between the kitchen and master bedroom.

 

[passionflower]

RR never once had to use the only bathroom while EM gave birth to 5 extra babies? babies come at any time of day not just while he was at work.
she cleaned up? gathered up everything and went upstairs? RR never heard any baby cries? and 2 little ones running around also?
RR never paid attention to EM body? her depression? her anxiety? Then he is either very low IQ or completely stoned 24/7 JMOO
I don't buy into he knew nothing in that tiny house! My own house is larger and I can hear someone sneeze upstairs even with the TV and washer going.............
No way could I even hide a puppy here...............

 

[wenwe4]

RR never once had to use the only bathroom while EM gave birth to 5 extra babies? babies come at any time of day not just while he was at work.
she cleaned up? gathered up everything and went upstairs? RR never heard any baby cries? and 2 little ones running around also?
RR never paid attention to EM body? her depression? her anxiety? Then he is either very low IQ or completely stoned 24/7 JMOO
I don't buy into he knew nothing in that tiny house! My own house is larger and I can hear someone sneeze upstairs even with the TV and washer going.............
No way could I even hide a puppy here...............

The 3 y/o and the 5 mo old were not running around this house at any time. The 3 y/o spent most of her life on her back, unable to use arms and could not walk. The 5 mo old should be just sitting up on her own and crawling if she were developmentally on task - which we know neither of these little girls were.

I had a co-worker with a cape cod style home looks to be the same layout as this home, except my co-worker installed a bathroom upstairs. There was one bedroom next to the bath on the main floor and adjoined wall to the living room (right side of front door). So is this a 1 bedroom on the main floor and 2 upstairs for a total of 3 bedroom home, or were there 2 more bedrooms on the main floor (albeit very small bedrooms)? Here's my question - where did the 13 & 10 y/o's sleep? Did they share a room? Did they sleep upstairs on the 2nd floor with dead and living babies?

 

[Oblio]

Yes, I'd say we are looking at 1 (large) BR to the left of the stairs, 1 BR to the right of the stairs (second floor), and a closet straight ahead at the top of the stairs. My grandparents had a Capecod that was built early in the 1900's and this was the layout of their house.

Looking at the main floor (from the back of the house), it appears that the (galley) kitchen has an exterior entry (FIRST PHOTO), bathroom shares a wall with the stove wall (SECOND PHOTO), then I think there's a master bedroom next to the bathroom. This is all speculation based upon the window sizes and it appears there's a television on a dresser in the 1st photo. The THIRD PHOTO shows same view as SECOND PHOTO before demo.

View attachment 62022View attachment 62023View attachment 62024
If entering the front door, I think the dining area (?) would be to the left of the stairs and the living room is to the right.
IMO, the stairs to the basement are directly across from the one and only bathroom...which would be between the kitchen and master bedroom.

Okay, this makes sense, as I hadn't even considered that that could be the living room. I bet you are right. Although it is a long walk to get there. And I figured there would probably be stairs to the basement within the house. Nobody wants to go through the snow to get to the basement, not to mention that isn't a full sized door in the back. I'm guessing that it is the legal access for emergency personnel.

Also, seeing the demolition, I feel a little bad. I understand the not wanting it and the horrors of it, but a nice old house like that could have been turned around. If you notice, it has a wrap and newer siding in the demolition. I bet structurally it was very sound. Some cheerful yellow paint and a beautiful garden in honor of the children would have been equally appropriate as tearing it down.

 

[iamnotagolem]

RR never once had to use the only bathroom while EM gave birth to 5 extra babies? babies come at any time of day not just while he was at work.
she cleaned up? gathered up everything and went upstairs? RR never heard any baby cries? and 2 little ones running around also?
RR never paid attention to EM body? her depression? her anxiety? Then he is either very low IQ or completely stoned 24/7 JMOO
I don't buy into he knew nothing in that tiny house! My own house is larger and I can hear someone sneeze upstairs even with the TV and washer going.............
No way could I even hide a puppy here...............

I'm not trying to defend RR b/c I, too, believe his IQ must be in the single digits to honestly have not noticed 5 additional pregnancies and 2 extra kids living in the house. BUT...what man in his right mind says "you've put on weight, are you pregnant?" Like how does a guy phrase that without imminent death awaiting?

But really, the mood swings, cravings, swollen breasts (he had to have noticed), the bloody aftermath? How did she get the cleanup done after giving birth? Babies wreak havoc on the ole vajayjay, was she not sore for a few weeks after? We are talking 5 additional pregnancies and subsequent births where she would have been in rough shape for a few weeks.

 

[sapofamily]

The 3 y/o and the 5 mo old were not running around this house at any time. The 3 y/o spent most of her life on her back, unable to use arms and could not walk. The 5 mo old should be just sitting up on her own and crawling if she were developmentally on task - which we know neither of these little girls were.

I had a co-worker with a cape cod style home looks to be the same layout as this home, except my co-worker installed a bathroom upstairs. There was one bedroom next to the bath on the main floor and adjoined wall to the living room (right side of front door). So is this a 1 bedroom on the main floor and 2 upstairs for a total of 3 bedroom home, or were there 2 more bedrooms on the main floor (albeit very small bedrooms)? Here's my question - where did the 13 & 10 y/o's sleep? Did they share a room? Did they sleep upstairs on the 2nd floor with dead and living babies?

IMO, the house isn't big enough to have 2 more bedrooms on the main floor. We may never know, but I feel confident in a hypothesis that there were 2 BRs upstairs and 1 on the main floor. As for where the 13 & 10 y/o's slept, it's possible they still slept on the couch in the LR (LEO reported that in previous visit) -- maybe they slept with EM, but their "assigned BRs" were most likely upstairs.

If the house layout I'm envisioning is accurate (based upon my grandparents' capecod), they had additional closet space (crawl space) the whole length of both upstairs' bedrooms towards the back wall. Additionally, they had their clothes closets at the front of the BRs (near the streetview, following roof line). Is it possible that the infant remains were in these "crawlspace closets"?

 

[wenwe4]

I hadn't seen this quote from her Atty previously:

"There are people who are skeptical of mental illness being raised as a defense in any criminal case, but if you don't believe that a woman who lives in the squalor that she lived in, a woman who decides to keep two children hidden from the world and who keeps not only the remains of three children in a bedroom closet, but the remains of family pets — if you don't listen to those facts and conclude that she is severely mentally ill, then there's no such thing as mental illness," Halpern said.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/article2931826.html##storylink=cpy

 

[wenwe4]

I am not sure if Trulia gathers info from the County Auditor for tax information on the parcel but often that info will only reflect information on the main floor living space with square footage, and how many bedrooms are there, but they usually count all of the baths in the home. (I used to work at a Title Insurance Co. and would give this info to Realtors all the time).

ETA: I looked up the county tax information and it says the main floor has 720 sq. feet, the 1/2 story (I assume the upstairs) has 432 sq. feet of living area for a total of 1152. This is a Cape Cod style with a slanted roof line - I imagine the upper portion of the home has alcoves on either side where the roofline slants. Maybe that is the "closet" or other door they forced open that emitted the horrendous stench.

Here is the link: http://data.visionappraisal.com/BlackstoneMA/findpid.asp?iTable=pid&pid=1051

I had to find it under RR's sister's name for property owner.

Quoting myself for the info on the home (if only there were a blueprint of the interior)

There is a sketch of the home stating unfinished basement, finished half story (432') and main floor is 30' long (front & back walls) by 24' long side walls to the exterior of the home.

 

[sapofamily]

This is a floor plan for a current capecod style home which is larger, but resembles the blackstone house. Two significant differences, besides sq footage, we know the 1 bathroom in on the main floor (and no attached garage) in place of "family room". Thoughts?



http://www.familyhomeplans.com/plan_details.cfm?PlanNumber=10286#image-slideshow

 

[Hoosgirl]

Great photos here (over 60 photos)..Some of them you can see the (sub?)floor. Others you can kind of get an idea of how the stairs were in relation to bedrooms. There are some shots of the wall next to a door frame that looks to have either mold or feces. :facepalm:

http://www.wcvb.com/news/home-where-babies-bodies-found-being-torn-down/29248926

From the second photo collection at bottom: Photos of dog only a glimpse of conditions at "House of Horrors" - one caption reads:

"Officials said at a press conference Sunday that crews needed up to 25 biohazard waste containers to remove materials from the home, includes walls covered with feces. Sources told NewsCenter 5 that it appeared children inside the home used piles of feces to leave handprints on some of the walls."

 

[wenwe4]

This is a floor plan for a current capecod style home which is larger, but resembles the blackstone house. Two significant differences, besides sq footage, we know the 1 bathroom in on the main floor (and no attached garage) in place of "family room". Thoughts?
View attachment 62123
View attachment 62124
View attachment 62125
http://www.familyhomeplans.com/plan_details.cfm?PlanNumber=10286#image-slideshow

Ha, looks like we were both researching cape cod style blue prints today! Good Work!

After seeing the square footage of this home, it seems doubtful to me that it could have more than 1 bedroom on the main floor. EM's home had a galley kitchen, central fireplace (which I assume opens in the living area straight across from the front door). The cape cod I am familiar with had the stairs in a hallway behind the fireplace in the living room.

EM's bathroom (the only one) shares a wall with the galley kitchen back near the stairwell I think (center rear of home) but I am not sure if the bathroom had a window). One bedroom rear right main floor (standing facing front door), living room includes front entry and to the right front main floor, dining area was left of front door adjoining galley kitchen.

Since this home was originally built in 1850, I went researching blue prints from that era. There were a lot of revivials of this style in the 30's & 40's. Here is a link to site that has the original blueprint from the 1700's . . . .scroll down about 1/2 page - shows a keeping room with 7 entrances. I think this part has changed - kinda like if you entered the rear entrance as the front door and including it into the family room. Bathrooms were added after these vintage designs.

http://www.oldhouseonline.com/original-cape-cod-cottage/


It would appear that this 1.5 story home has 3 bedrooms. 2 upstairs where infant & toddler found, 1 on main floor. Either 10 & 13 y/o's shared the one bedroom on main or they were upstairs with the living babies sharing a room with dead babies. EM & RR slept on couches in living room & basement?

This family doesn't exactly fit my image of "normal" families when it comes to sleeping arrangements.

 

[tlcya]

Ha, looks like we were both researching cape cod style blue prints today! Good Work!

After seeing the square footage of this home, it seems doubtful to me that it could have more than 1 bedroom on the main floor. EM's home had a galley kitchen, central fireplace (which I assume opens in the living area straight across from the front door). The cape cod I am familiar with had the stairs in a hallway behind the fireplace in the living room.

EM's bathroom (the only one) shares a wall with the galley kitchen back near the stairwell I think (center rear of home) but I am not sure if the bathroom had a window). One bedroom rear right main floor (standing facing front door), living room includes front entry and to the right front main floor, dining area was left of front door adjoining galley kitchen.

Since this home was originally built in 1850, I went researching blue prints from that era. There were a lot of revivials of this style in the 30's & 40's. Here is a link to site that has the original blueprint from the 1700's . . . .scroll down about 1/2 page - shows a keeping room with 7 entrances. I think this part has changed - kinda like if you entered the rear entrance as the front door and including it into the family room. Bathrooms were added after these vintage designs.

http://www.oldhouseonline.com/original-cape-cod-cottage/


It would appear that this 1.5 story home has 3 bedrooms. 2 upstairs where infant & toddler found, 1 on main floor. Either 10 & 13 y/o's shared the one bedroom on main or they were upstairs with the living babies sharing a room with dead babies. EM & RR slept on couches in living room & basement?

This family doesn't exactly fit my image of "normal" families when it comes to sleeping arrangements.

Some articles in past weeks have indicated that the dead infants were hidden in the children's' closets. If I am remembering rightly they said the oldest children's rooms, but given the state (reportedly) of the upstairs bedrooms, they may have been the older childrens' rooms until they became unlivable and then people started crashing in the living room in front of computer or tv. Just a hunch.

 

[wenwe4]

OK help me out here . . .
1) This home is RR's sister's home - gifted to her by another Rivera family member.
2) EM & RR moved into this home in 2006 or so
3) He knows the layout of the home quite well
4) The babies had a LOT of square footage in this tiny home

There's only 700 sq ft on the main floor another 400 upstairs, why would he not ever go to the 2nd floor? Wouldn't that be the logical space for storing Christmas decor' or seasonal things - even if they weren't using it as a living space? Who installed the air conditioner in the upstairs window?

How is it even possible that RR did not know that babies were living upstairs? I think he just denied knowing they were his children but he clearly knew they were living in this home in horrendous filth! (IMO)

C'mon Cap'n Obvious . . . . seriously?!?

Even if her own Mother hasn't been to the home, there was a fb post she wrote about thanking her Dad for his help (I was thinking he was fixing things around her home). It's been previously reported that EM's Father is a fixit Man of sorts and her Mom sells crafts. Wouldn't Grandma & Grandpa ever begin to wonder how the older kids were doing? Even if they didn't want to "intrude" on her "messy" home - certainly there has to be some thoughts about really checking in on their grandkids.

 

[sapofamily]

It is very baffling that RR still hasn't been charged with anything other than the marijuana-related charges. The only thing that could possibly excuse his ignorance to the conditions in that house is if he lived in another country. And I'm still curious where he's currently residing? If the older children are placed with his parent, where is RR staying?

Something new jumped out at me this morning when reading an old article from September 17th and if it's been discussed before, my apologies:

After police obtained a search warrant and discovered the remains of three infants as well as those of dogs and cats in the house, Ms. Murray was arraigned Friday in Uxbridge District Court on charges of concealment of fetal death out of wedlock, permitting injury to a child, witness intimidation, animal cruelty and violation of an abuse prevention order.

http://www.telegram.com/article/20140917/NEWS/309179856/0/FRONTPAGE

What abuse prevention order? Against RR? I don't recall reading anything about this before...is that why RR claims to be living in the basement?