MA - Remains of 3 infants found, Erika Murray charged, Blackstone, Sept 2014

[iamnotagolem]

I still wonder where she got the diapers from, she had no money and no access to money but there were piles of dirty diapers all over the house. If she had no money and the house was covered in feces & urine, why bother with the diapers? Diapering two children properly runs about $100 a month when using disposable.

Also for further clarification, the only bedrooms in the house were on the 2nd floor, correct? So basement = drug, main floor = kitchen, living, dining, bathroom, 2nd floor = 3 bedrooms?

 

[tlcya]

I agree iamnotagolem. What is puzzling is that if she did not drive, had no means to go buy the diapers herself, or formula, or onesies, etc. Where did those items come from? Friends and neighbors have stated that RR drove her to the store and places she needed to go. Neighbors report watching them bring home groceries, etc together. So how did all those foul diapers, several feet worth apparently, get into that house without RR knowing about it?

Yeah Yeah, I know, he was eventually told about the living young children but told EM was "babysitting" them. But before he allegedly knew of their existence did he not notice diaper purchases when accompanying her to store and helping her unload car? After he knew that EM was apparently perpetually "babysitting" these children, did he not wonder why his wife was purchasing their diapers and formula?

None of it makes any sense. Not one single thing adds up. When will this man be charged for crimes against the children in that household?

 

[wenwe4]

I wondered the same thing about diapers but someone told me they can be ordered online and delivered. I think she probably kept all the packaging upstirs with the diapers to not 'get caught'. The next question would be where did she get money? I know she had some sales of her craft items - maybe she had an allowance from RR (although her atty denies that). Formula is also quite expensive, but the neighbor child who cleaned maggots out of the bottle did make a bottle of formula for the infant while awaiting LEO response.

Maybe the Judge's comment about RR needing to hire his own atty was a stern warning of more to come! I think once all of the ME autopsy reports come back EM will be charged with more criminal acts. Meanwhile, I think LEO are putting timelines together and gathering facts to charge RR with Some sort of complacency and neglectful acts to at least ensure his oldest kids were safe in that home - let alone 2 more infants she was "babysitting".

 

[iamnotagolem]

He allegedly didn't know of the 3 y/o & 5 m/o existence until summer 2014, so she bought diapers for 3 years w/o his knowledge? Even if she ordered online, using a credit card that she obtained w/o his knowledge, he was never home when they were delivered? Never saw a diaper box or the shipping box? I mean those boxes are big and take up space. Did she just break them down and keep them piled for 3 years? Why go the formula route if trying to hide the babies? Why not nurse them? Free food for a few years, or would that initiate the bonding that she didn't want?

I'm still trying to understand how the 3 year old survived so long. Was she given other food besides formula and maggots? How underweight was she? Did the older kids sneak her food? Is that why she survived when the other 3 babies did not? Of the 3 that died, when were they born? All between the 10 y/o and 3 y/o or was there one between the 3 y/o and 5 m/o?

I'm assuming she never named the 2 little girls and the 3 dead ones? I can't wrap my mind around watching a beautiful infant who loves you unconditionally just suffer and die of neglect, or survive despite your neglect. I can't imagine not instinctively picking up that baby and cuddling, loving, nursing such a beautiful child.

Sorry, this case really bothers me. If RR so desperately didn't want more children, why not get a vasectomy? Use a condom? Get Erika on birth control? Have her tubes tied? Stop having sex?

 

[wenwe4]

Excellent questions Iamnot,
I was wondering about nursing the infants but I think she would fear his finding out she was lactating. That might have been easier to find than the boxes, wrappers & formula cans. She did name the 2 little ones - their names were listed in the initial police report - along with their dates of birth. Those things were scribbled out with blue ink but I think both little girls names started with "m".

There was one report in one of the links I linked yesterday (I think) quoting her atty who said the deceased infants were born between the 10 & 3 y/o's.

We know the nurturing didn't happen - the infant didn't know how to be held according to the neighbor. The 3 y/o couldn't use her arms or legs and could not feed self.

Brain neurons grow at an alarming rate in infancy and are dependent upon human interaction. Humans are 'hardwired' for relationship. Brain starts pruning out unused neurons at age 2 or 2.5 yrs. this is my biggest fear for the 3 y/o

I still can't wrap my brain around the bedroom situation. We know 2 br upstairs - one for each infant. EM & RR shared a br ( I assume) on main floor - although he may have slept downstairs sometimes too. Now the question is did 10 & 13 y/ o's share a bedroom or did they each have one? Either this house had 3 br total or maybe 3 on main floor & 2 or 3 upstairs. All of the reports contradict each other with regard to where the deceased remains were found. We know the one with hair was in an upstairs closet. The others were found in the older children's closet.

I wish a local news station would clear up the confusion since they were present during the hearing and heard testimony, instead of AP reports that people sometimes misinterpret

 

[iamnotagolem]

I'm not sure that he would have noticed lactating, if he honestly didn't notice 5 pregnancies, 5 additional children (3 of which that lived for a while then died in the house) and a child that lived there for 3 years. The 3 year old had to have cried prior to this summer, he had to have heard it. Has he been given a mental evaluation? I can't help but wonder if he has a profoundly low IQ that would keep him from understanding sex = pregnancy and pregnancy = children.

I haven't completely given up hope on the 3 y/o. I really think a warm, nurturing home would do wonders for her, just being loved, hugged, cuddled I would think she would progress at an accelerated rate. Birth to 5 years old is when children learn lots, which is why early intervention is vital for success in kids with special needs. I'm not an expert but I think that having only known abandonment and neglect, that she'd thrive with human interaction.

My son was diagnosed with autism at age 2, with nearly 3 years of early intervention under his belt the only delay he currently has is speech, which is literally improving daily.

While the 3 y/o will likely require physical therapy as well as other therapies, I really would like to believe that she could be ready for kindergarten in 2 years with the right interventions, therapies and lots and lots of love.

 

[wenwe4]

I appreciate your comments Iamnot - I truly hope she defies all odds and is able to achieve a normal life. I too dont give RR a pass. To be fair, I don't give either sets of grandparents, aunties, or uncles a pass either. It is one thing to allow a single adult to live and let live as long as they don't harm self or others. It is a whole different ball game when you know child, grandchild, or niece/nephew are living in uninhabitable conditions.

I saw one report that stated family & friends saw a big change in EM AFTER BIRTH OF 10 y/o. That was the time the family moved to this home. When was the last time any extended family or friends visited the home?

 

[Oblio]

I still wonder where she got the diapers from, she had no money and no access to money but there were piles of dirty diapers all over the house. If she had no money and the house was covered in feces & urine, why bother with the diapers? Diapering two children properly runs about $100 a month when using disposable.

Also for further clarification, the only bedrooms in the house were on the 2nd floor, correct? So basement = drug, main floor = kitchen, living, dining, bathroom, 2nd floor = 3 bedrooms?

I had someone once tell me that they liked Huggies because she only had to change her son three times a day. In the morning when he woke, again when he pooped, and once last time before bed. Somehow I doubt EM gave those babies even this level of care. But let's assume 3 a day, anyway. That's 180 a month between the two kids. Assuming a small size, 1-2, given the malnutrition, that's less than $1 a day with generics. I wouldn't be surprised if she only changed the kids once a day or less.

 

[sapofamily]

I saw one report that stated family & friends saw a big change in EM AFTER BIRTH OF 10 y/o. That was the time the family moved to this home. When was the last time any extended family or friends visited the home?

I'm certainly not a psychiatrist, but EM was 21 y/o when she had him and that's a typical age of onset for serious mental illnesses (e.g. Schizophrenia/Bipolar Disorder/Major Depressive Disorder). Whether she was ever treated for a SMI, possibly self-medicated, or maybe had acute postpartum disorder, all of the pregnancies without any medical treatment could've exacerbated any hormonal or chemical imbalances.

As sickening and saddening as this story is, it's my only rational explanation for the behaviors involved in this horrendous story that haunts us all.

It appears that in most cases, postpartum psychosis represents an episode of bipolar illness; the symptoms of puerperal psychosis most closely resemble those of a rapidly evolving manic (or mixed) episode. The earliest signs are restlessness, irritability, and insomnia. Women with this disorder exhibit a rapidly shifting depressed or elated mood, disorientation or confusion, and erratic or disorganized behavior. Delusional beliefs are common and often center on the infant. Auditory hallucinations that instruct the mother to harm herself or her infant may also occur. Risk for infanticide, as well as suicide, is significant in this population.

http://womensmentalhealth.org/specialty-clinics/postpartum-psychiatric-disorders/

As for the diapers/formula...if RR truly didn't notice her buying these things, my only other thought is that the 13 y/o went to a local store (most towns have a Dollar General type store) as part of her parentified life.

 

[wenwe4]

I do think PPD (postpartum depression) is a huge factor for the condition of the home . I once knew a woman with postpartum psychosis who started the kitchen curtains on fire with her infant nearby. She was in a true psychosis and did not know right from wrong in that very moment in time.

EM hid pregnancies, babies, skeletal remains, poopy diapers & dead animals from everyone. She even threatened or intimidated her oldest kids to keep her secrets from their own dad. She managed to keep a very normal and loving mother persona on fb and created another fb persona to Create an illusion of another mama, for whom she babysat. All of this she did over a long period of time. She knew what would be considered "acceptable" by the larger society and played that role for her older kids.

I think EM's behaviors show she was able to know right from wrong, but chose to keep her secrets.

 

[lawstudent]

I agree that she showed strong signs of rationality in terms of her ability to conceal the problem and get her kids to go along with it. So I think she will have a hard time trying to avoid legal repercussions. But that doesn't mean I think she truly had a good grasp on what exactly she was doing. She is severely mentally ill, and I don't think she is capable of being 'taught a lesson' in prison. I don't know if successful treatment is possible, because she seems so far gone, but at least she is not responsible for children or animals anymore. It's sad all around. I don't think she was processing what was going on - she was aware it was wrong, but detaching from it.

I've experienced detachment all my life, although fortunately nowhere near this extent. But sometimes I can do things like avoid cleaning for way too long because I simply feel overwhelmed and shut it out - it's difficult to explain why I don't just get it over with. It's a bizarre feeling. I can ignore a lot if no one is asking me about it. But then I snap out of it or at least force myself to do small tasks, so I never live in conditions anywhere near what went on in that house. When it's progressive, you get the trash hoarders.

 

[wenwe4]

Boston herald heslam just reported the infant with the hair lived for a few days before EM found the infant dead in a bassinet. This child was found upstairs in a backpack and one of the babies who was dresses in a onsie.

Another one of the deceased babies was found with umbilical cord and placenta still attached.

I'm on my iPad and sadly I dont know how to link.

 

[jnblsm]

Still trying to catch up with all this mess, so not sure if it's been brought up:
The 10yo & 13yo are boys, the 3yo & 5mo are girls. Do we know the sex of the babies that are deceased? Girls?

Oops. Just read the 13yo is female. That blows my theory.

 

[tlcya]

Still trying to catch up with all this mess, so not sure if it's been brought up:
The 10yo & 13yo are boys, the 3yo & 5mo are girls. Do we know the sex of the babies that are deceased? Girls?

correction, the 13 year old is girl, 10 year old boy, the 3 year old has been reported as a boy and a girl by various outlets, not sure if that confusion was ever resolved and the 5 month old is a girl. I have not read anywhere the sex of the 3 dead infants - I don't think that info has been released yet.

 

[wenwe4]

correction, the 13 year old is girl, 10 year old boy, the 3 year old has been reported as a boy and a girl by various outlets, not sure if that confusion was ever resolved and the 5 month old is a girl. I have not read anywhere the sex of the 3 dead infants - I don't think that info has been released yet.

The 3 y/o was originally thought to be a boy per the responding neighbor. News came out right away she is a girl - recent court hearing confirmed girl.

 

[sapofamily]

Boston herald heslam just reported the infant with the hair lived for a few days before EM found the infant dead in a bassinet. This child was found upstairs in a backpack and one of the babies who was dresses in a onsie.

Another one of the deceased babies was found with umbilical cord and placenta still attached.

I'm on my iPad and sadly I dont know how to link.

Here's a link to the article that wenwe4 referenced:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...e-were-told/FSAIXDdnWIRLdAlUCkrV8N/story.html

ETA: the above article is actually from the Boston Globe, but contains the new info that wenwe4 posted.

 

[wenwe4]

Interesting reading back at the beginning of this thread. EM continued to lie to her own parents about why the 4 children were picked up by CPS, telling them it was RR's fault for growing pot in basement. She didn't seem to believe cops were there to arrest her for the dead infants in the home.

It would seem that she had been living her secret lies for so long it became her. She lives in a sewage pit but makes crafts for home decor, that sold quite well. She bragged about her older kids on fb, but neglected the infants to death? She posted on fb "some people should not be parents" yet couldn't provide appropriate meals to her kids who ate cookies for breakfast.

Living on both edges of good and evil at the same time. I don't think she understands that even though she didn't do anything to cause the infant deaths, lack of doing what was needed lead to unhealthy children and quite possibly death(s). The level of neglect is extreme by any measure or standard IMO.

 

[wenwe4]

I wonder if the Me can tell much from skeletal remains, or even tox screens given the level of filth in the home

 

[sapofamily]

I must add her paradoxical concern for the cat who got outside that might not survive "out there"...while she didn't responsibly dispose of or bury the numerous other pets that were deceased in the home....and this:

 

[SthrnRaine]

I will be incredibly disappointed and absolutely disgusted if RR gets a free pass on what happened to those precious children. This man LIVED in that house of horrors for years. Those are HIS children too. Claims of 'I didn't know' about the dead babies (however ridiculous that is) does not negate the obvious neglect of the living children based solely on the horrendous conditions they lived in. Even a hermit without a sense of smell still has a moral and legal obligation to see that his children are raised in a proper environment, IMO. Also, MOO, he should be facing the same charges as EM on all counts regarding All those children. Ignorance and/or stupidity should not even be considered a viable defense when it comes to the welfare of innocent children.