MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #6

[ForensicMass]

I can't seem to attach an image right now. But if you look up an arial view of mountain barn...you notice there is a big parking lot and a big one next door. There are also some homes across the street...some a bit more run down then most in town.

Depending on the ping accuracy could she have been in a vehicle in the parking lot? Or inside a house across the street?

I would say yes those locations could be possible locations for a ping that was reportedly "near the mountain barn restaurant". and I would certainly see those locations being more likely than the ping resulting from the location where she was found more than 5000 feet away.

 

[ForensicMass]

Too bad you couldn't turn off your wi-fi assist and see how far the circle fans out from another phone.
Think she may have turned that off to maybe save data? Hard to know if she still used the Map My Run, right?

There were runs recorded after her privacy settings were changed. I heard this direct from LE and forgot to mention it. But we don't know if it was in use on that day.

 

[ForensicMass]

So we DO NOT know if she was actually at said store?? I am so confused right now that my brain is getting mushy..

Don't worry it happens to the best of us I think it's a sign that you're on the right track Lol. it was reported that she "was believed to have been at the mountain side market around noon". But people at the store did not recall seeing her and seemed to indicate that police didn't see anything of use on their video surveillance- It is possible the police did see something on the surveillance and have kept it close to the vest. But in my discussion with people at the store the consensus there was that she may not have been there. We just don't know, but law-enforcement doesn't know one way or another because there is a security camera pointed directly at the door and if she was there law-enforcement does know it.

 

[ForensicMass]

What I mean by that is one way of getting her deeper in the woods and IMO could have been done quickly. Just a thought..

I raised questions earlier about whether this person was a gun owner, whether he may have had a gun, and if he did why he didn't use it.

Does anyone know the requirements in Massachusetts for a firearms license I'm sure they probably fingerprint everyone with a gun but do they take a DNA sample ? ( i'm sure this sounds completely ridiculous to anyone in Texas but up here in Massachusetts they make gun ownership a real chore )

If he had a gun and was trying to abduct her, would she have complied in getting into the vehicle? what would you do? On the one hand getting into the vehicle might be signing your death certificate but can you Actively fight someone who's got a firearm? And someone so filled with rage that they can strangle someone to death might have a problem with impulse control. A person like that with a gun in hand I would think would be likely to use it


A lot of speculation I don't have any concrete useful thoughts on this

 

[ThinkHard]

I raised questions earlier about whether this person was a gun owner, whether he may have had a gun, and if he did why he didn't use it.

Does anyone know the requirements in Massachusetts for a firearms license I'm sure they probably fingerprint everyone with a gun but do they take a DNA sample ? ( i'm sure this sounds completely ridiculous to anyone in Texas but up here in Massachusetts they make gun ownership a real chore )

If he had a gun and was trying to abduct her, would she have complied in getting into the vehicle? what would you do? On the one hand getting into the vehicle might be signing your death certificate but can you Actively fight someone who's got a firearm? And someone so filled with rage that they can strangle someone to death might have a problem with impulse control. A person like that with a gun in hand I would think would be likely to use it


A lot of speculation I don't have any concrete useful thoughts on this

You take a class. Meet with the chief of police in town. Need two letters of recommendation. They finger print you and run a background check.

 

[searunner]

He very well could have had a gun. Of course we have no clue, we may never. I can honestly say that if a gun was closely pointed at me, I would pretty much do what I was told. All JMO

You NEVER want to go anywhere more remote (like into a car or into the woods, to mention theories mentioned on this thread,) than you already are even if someone has a gun pointed at your head. Once you're somewhere more remote, you have close to 0% chance of making it out alive. At least if you fight when first confronted, you have a little bit of a chance.

This is one things ALL PARENTS should teach their daughters.

I think it's likely Vanessa knew this.

Emb72's response was in response to ThinkHard's comment:

It doesn't explain how he got her so far in the woods with no one hearing screaming though.

I am open to both the "she went voluntarily with him down the cartpath because she knew him" scenario that's been thrown out (though I do not think it is likely) AND the scenario about her being ambushed from behind and dragged into the woods, as well as others.

I don't think a strong man would have a problem surprising and quickly silencing a 5-2" slender woman who was probably distracted (possibly listening to music) and dragging her into the woods. Risky as heck, but possible. So, I do not agree that someone would have likely heard her in this latter scenario. As Rocky has said, he could have hit her over the head. He could have also just grabbed her from behind and had his hand very tightly over her mouth.

Even if she did manage to make some noise, this crime occurred in the middle of a heat wave. Occupied homes in the area were all likely shut up with ac going. This is an upscale area, so we can be sure the nearby residents have ac. Further, in my experience, many people who live in upscale areas have vacation homes. Even for those that don't, early August is peak summer vacation time. So the time of the year and the extreme heat even for this time of year worked in his favor.

One other comment - while I am a savor the silence (at times) type of person, I am all too well aware that most ( yes, I feel comfortable saying "most") people have their TVs on constantly as background noise.

ForensicMass asked about people's thoughts about guns....

I don't necessarily think he had a gun with him. But I do agree that someone this violent probably is a gun owner - unless he's quite young and this is first first very serious crime.

 

[searunner]

All LE needs to do is obtain a SW (search warrant) by convincing a Judge to sign off on one that would include a cellular tower dump for a particular time frame. For an unsolved murder, this would be expected. Does anyone know how to check for warrants filed within county records for this case?

GREAT exchange between you and liz b! This topic has been on my mind. DeDee's comment was in response to liz b who posted:

Is it possible for LE to obtain the cell phone info from any and all phones that were located and turned on in that small crime scene area during the time +- arnd noon ?

IF this murder was spur of the moment/not planned, the perp would likely have no reason to NOT have his cell phone activated BEFORE the crime. And, as DeDee said, LE would probably have no problem getting a warrant for cell phone records for the crime scene vicinity within, say, 12-3 pm.

Meaning IF LE has the cell phone dump already, it seems less likely to me that the murder (or at least some crime, like rape) was UNplanned. If this is the case, I think they might have their man by now. This isn't a big city or even a more typical suburb, but a rather rural area with houses on spacious lots and just occasional traffic on BSR and most other nearby roads. So while still a big job, it seems very doable to me that LE would be able to go through the cell phone records for the CS vicinity in the 12-3pm or so range (concentrating on the early part of the range) by now. Again, assuming they have them already, which they might not.

And ForensicMass (when talking about HER phone is correct) - that no matter the mechanism used for tracking, a phone's location can be either extremely to very accurately tracked. (Brief explanation below.) So, LE would be able to track HIS cell accurately, as well.

Caveat:

While just about everyone has a cell phone with them while driving or on their person while walking/running/biking, we can't 100% assume he had a cell on him. So, even if they have the cell dump or obtain those records in the future, we can't rule out the "unplanned" scenario because he might not have had a cell on him.

So, DeDee, I'd love an answer to your question about warrants for cellular dumps: Does anyone know how to check for warrants filed within county records for this case?

--

CELL PHONE TRACKING

"Pinging" and and cell phone triangulation are two different things. Pinging is a digital (GPS) process, triangulation is cellular.

Bottom line - both are supposedly able to pinpoint a location very closely - pinging (which is the method used by the Find my phone app) supposedly within a few feet and triangulation within about 100 ft, according to my (brief) research. I believe FM might have mentioned 300 ft. Either way - 100 or 300 ft is pretty close. So, we can be pretty sure that the ping or what was called a ping by Vanessa's aunt at Mt Barn at 2:25 did originate pretty close to Mt. Barn.

 

[Danyel]

Fwiw, my kids went to Bancroft for a shadow day four weeks ago and I asked how many families from princeton there are (We had a house under agreement in Princeton but not panning out so well) I was told 5 families.

I also did find iPhone at both mountain barn and BSR, both were almost exact to where I was. I had to use find iPhone for my daughters phone at wachusett mountain last night (with poor service) and it literally showed the phone going up the ski lift.

 

[searunner]

I've read VM website several times now and still have not found where the quote is they talk about a possible secondary crime scene...could you tell me where on the website this is?

Grrr.... I just wrote what didn't seem to be a post that took too long to write and the site timed out on me, even though I was still logged on. Didn't think I needed to copy and save as I have learned I sometimes need to do. (Not complaining, as I think the site's owner and admins do a great job.) So I don't have as much time now to be more clear for others or to go back and get Mainely's 12/22 post.

There was no ref to a secondary crime scene. Quite the opposite. Mainely said that based on the info on the website (said something like "Vanessa was killed in the woods near her mom's home") that we can probably rule OUT a secondary crime scene (paraphrasing her). I agreed.

I can vouch for the wording Mainely quoted. I didn't doubt her, but was curious about the site, so checked it out back then.

BUT the ref to her killing has been removed from the site. Checked it out after reading your post. My take is that the family removed it simply because it was incongruous with the stated intention of the site of focusing on Vanessa's life, not her death.

However, we certainly can not know for certainty what the motive was in taking out that wording.

Hope that helps.

 

[ThinkHard]

Grrr.... I just wrote what didn't seem to be a post that took too long to write and the site timed out on me, even though I was still logged on. Didn't think I needed to copy and save as I have learned I sometimes need to do. (Not complaining, as I think the site's owner and admins do a great job.) So I don't have as much time now to be more clear for others or to go back and get Mainely's 12/22 post.

There was no ref to a secondary crime scene. Quite the opposite. Mainely said that based on the info on the website (said something like "Vanessa was killed in the woods near her mom's home") that we can probably rule OUT a secondary crime scene (paraphrasing her). I agreed.

I can vouch for the wording Mainely quoted. I didn't doubt her, but was curious about the site, so checked it out back then.

BUT the ref to her killing has been removed from the site. Checked it out after reading your post. My take is that the family removed it simply because it was incongruous with the stated intention of the site of focusing on Vanessa's life, not her death.

However, we certainly can not know for certainty what the motive was in taking out that wording.

Hope that helps.

I went to the site right after the news conference on the day of the conference, I read the whole thing and did not see this quote. When mainly posted that quote I immediately went back to the website and went through all the tabs and all the pages and still did not find it then.

So I know manukau quoted something but i never saw it then (and trust me I looked) and as you say it's not there now.)

I'm not trying to doubt Mainely but it's hard to believe something if you can't read it with your own eyes...and honestly I have ZERO proof of where that quote came from and who actually said it.

so I give it no weight at all...without being able to read it from the source it supposedly came from....a sources despite extensive early digging could never actually find myself ... so part of me doesn't even believe it was there at all.

Where in her webpage was it located? I read every tab, everyword and never once saw it.

Not back then....and again not now when someone brought it back up.

 

[ThinkHard]

You NEVER want to go anywhere more remote (like into a car or into the woods, to mention theories mentioned on this thread,) than you already are even if someone has a gun pointed at your head. Once you're somewhere more remote, you have close to 0% chance of making it out alive. At least if you fight when first confronted, you have a little bit of a chance.

This is one things ALL PARENTS should teach their daughters.

I think it's likely Vanessa knew this.

Emb72's response was in response to ThinkHard's comment:

It doesn't explain how he got her so far in the woods with no one hearing screaming though.

I am open to both the "she went voluntarily with him down the cartpath because she knew him" scenario that's been thrown out (though I do not think it is likely) AND the scenario about her being ambushed from behind and dragged into the woods, as well as others.

I don't think a strong man would have a problem surprising and quickly silencing a 5-2" slender woman who was probably distracted (possibly listening to music) and dragging her into the woods. Risky as heck, but possible. So, I do not agree that someone would have likely heard her in this latter scenario. As Rocky has said, he could have hit her over the head. He could have also just grabbed her from behind and had his hand very tightly over her mouth.

Even if she did manage to make some noise, this crime occurred in the middle of a heat wave. Occupied homes in the area were all likely shut up with ac going. This is an upscale area, so we can be sure the nearby residents have ac. Further, in my experience, many people who live in upscale areas have vacation homes. Even for those that don't, early August is peak summer vacation time. So the time of the year and the extreme heat even for this time of year worked in his favor.

One other comment - while I am a savor the silence (at times) type of person, I am all too well aware that most ( yes, I feel comfortable saying "most") people have their TVs on constantly as background noise.

ForensicMass asked about people's thoughts about guns....

I don't necessarily think he had a gun with him. But I do agree that someone this violent probably is a gun owner - unless he's quite young and this is first first very serious crime.

Correction....just because this is an upscale town....no you can't be sure that everyone has ac....a lot of these houses are big old homes....this town is where people move to to get away from the hustle and bustle...people with money who want it quiet and simple...who have gentleman farms and enjoy the peace. This isn't upscale like greenwhich CT is upscale....it's not flashy, it's not fancy. It's beautiful and it's peaceful...but I think maybe people are taking it's mention of money and making assumption about the town that are not accurate. People with rare acception....don't have vacation homes elsewhere, or live in help, or high tech cameras....it's just not that kind of place.

We are people who grew up opening our windows in the summer. Yes some people have AC ... but many many people do not.

It is very very quiet in Princeton. When I was there the wknd after the murder...almost to the hour...I was sitting in chairs outside the market eating a sandwich....and what I couldn't help but notice was just how quiet it is. ... if a girl screamed even in a mile radius of where I was sitting, in the quite of the town, you would have heard her scream. If she in fact screamed.

 

[Kickoff61]

Grrr.... I just wrote what didn't seem to be a post that took too long to write and the site timed out on me, even though I was still logged on. Didn't think I needed to copy and save as I have learned I sometimes need to do. (Not complaining, as I think the site's owner and admins do a great job.) So I don't have as much time now to be more clear for others or to go back and get Mainely's 12/22 post.

There was no ref to a secondary crime scene. Quite the opposite. Mainely said that based on the info on the website (said something like "Vanessa was killed in the woods near her mom's home") that we can probably rule OUT a secondary crime scene (paraphrasing her). I agreed.

I can vouch for the wording Mainely quoted. I didn't doubt her, but was curious about the site, so checked it out back then.

BUT the ref to her killing has been removed from the site. Checked it out after reading your post. My take is that the family removed it simply because it was incongruous with the stated intention of the site of focusing on Vanessa's life, not her death.

However, we certainly can not know for certainty what the motive was in taking out that wording.

Hope that helps.

There is no proof there is not a secondary crime scene. Whether there is or not, I do not know, but it has been all speculation and there is no proof.

 

[Evey]

Leominster is more like a small city then a town. It's big and has nice parts and not so nice parts. There would be lots of stores...but that trip would take longer and I think her parents would notice a time difference of driving to the town center and driving to Leominster.

I wonder though if she headed out to get a drink or whatever...somehow ran into someone by chance, spoke face to face and agreed to meet up in a bit...meaning no paper trail, no digital footprint.

And perhaps they picked her up. BUT an old school mate in town before leaving for college. Maybe she met with often at some specific spot and said whatever excuse. Seems to me I hear getting a drink I think not going to the store for water or Gatorade I think she would have. As for the purse yes but i don't always bringing mine but keep money and my ID or my debit card and chapstick in my bra. Wonder if she did also. So they psychically saw we run down the road? Or did they assume so? If strangled could it be by her own earbuds? Or did she even have them for sure? I could see her running down the road out of her parents sight then getting into someone's car maybe a dark SUV some neighbors saw them in. Then he could have drove them to that area and drove down the road and yea. I mean maybe she ran into someone who she knew and he wanted to go running together and said he'd pick her up or meet her somewhere down where they wouldn't have noticed. I mean if she did track in school or had a marathon partner or someone she did those with a lot or ran track with then who's to say she didn't run into him.

 

[Evey]

And really let's say it's but the parents who the SUV lead came from and it's just someone they didn't know she was spending time with secretly or just not mentioning them that could make them think some weird SUV is lurking. She could even attended secret support groups for health things or to help people with addiction issues etc but just didn't tell anyone. I mean she wasn't just coming home that often for her parents no matter how much she loved them and I wonder if she even partied much or what. Also that is in no way judging her I'm just trying to think of places she could meet the person or reasons she would be hiding it

 

[Evey]

They never said they found DNA. They announced it was a male, likely with scratches. The deduction of course being they know this because male DNA was under her nails.

Police haven't given us a check list of their evidence and they won't. They have no reason too.

Telling us he's male and had scratches however might jolt someone's memory.

Announcing they have fingerprints doesn't do anything as far as the public and tips.

True. I just known some cases announce it some don't and well until they tell us this stuff if ever then we don't know. I always assumed DNA was via the nails but also if she had been assaulted like a first articles said but haven't seen mentioned since the start of the case.

 

[ThinkHard]

And perhaps they picked her up. BUT an old school mate in town before leaving for college. Maybe she met with often at some specific spot and said whatever excuse. Seems to me I hear getting a drink I think not going to the store for water or Gatorade I think she would have. As for the purse yes but i don't always bringing mine but keep money and my ID or my debit card and chapstick in my bra. Wonder if she did also. So they psychically saw we run down the road? Or did they assume so? If strangled could it be by her own earbuds? Or did she even have them for sure? I could see her running down the road out of her parents sight then getting into someone's car maybe a dark SUV some neighbors saw them in. Then he could have drove them to that area and drove down the road and yea. I mean maybe she ran into someone who she knew and he wanted to go running together and said he'd pick her up or meet her somewhere down where they wouldn't have noticed. I mean if she did track in school or had a marathon partner or someone she did those with a lot or ran track with then who's to say she didn't run into him.

She was 27...she had graduate college 6 years prior....who of her friends would be heading off to college?

 

[Evey]

If the store employee was working at noon, he/she would have known it was around noon.
I agree that LE wouldn't have just gone in and said we think she would have been here at some point.
I know one of the first things that I would have asked is "where are the cams around here?" The Mountain Side, being a store along one of her jogging paths would have been my first stop, having no clue where she was at that time.
They may have went in, showing an employee her picture, and asked if anyone saw her, and an employee may have said "Yes I saw her, she was here at 12 Oclock, buying a drink."
I am sure they did have the parents sit down, and take them through every step of her day. That would have been one of the first things, I would think. And I am not saying that's not the reason they went there, I am saying that it it's possible that it is not.
I don't think it was confusion either. Checking out cams along her route would be procedure.
I'm all out for exploring every angle. As I said in the past, although there are many scenarios any one could be true at this point. I am very open minded to any thoughts.
If you can get me past the "secret lover" leaving no electronic footprint by cell phone and email both, never mentioned once to any of vanessas' close friends, or co workers, never once seen with her by anyone, and never once gave her a gift that she told anyone about, I'll be right behind you.
The reason I ask, is because he would have been the 4th thing that LE would have checked out, after inner family, neighborhood cams, and any neighbor that lived anywhere close to the crime scene, and I'd be willing to bet on day one, her cell phone records were summoned.
Did they both have burner phones, where she carried two phones around with her? If so you have to get me past no electronic footprint on her p/c or cell phone. We don't know if LE has her phone or not, but, even if they don't, I think it's fair to say that her employer pulled all the stops and found that information quick.
I can't say for sure if the employees went over the video at the Mountain Side, but I'd bet my house that LE took those with them before that happened, or at least went through them before the employees did, and maybe FM can tell us more.

Well there's are ways. One is they met via being runners and ran together and had set meeting times and because maybe he's married or something they never discussed it or they left notes for eachother. Or he worked at where she would go to get her drink if she got one and they had a code phrase. My thing is like I said no reason to be visiting that often otherwise and she could turn off her running app being public to hide it. Maybe she had new routes even. Ine thing is odd is saying her bf isn't a serious one and his lack of media involved because if he is your bf he isn't nkt serious. Nobody starts those things not expecting them to be serious at our age. A friend with benefits would be one thing or someone she was dating but not a boyfriend. And how long were they a couple? Cause again the longer that was the whole odd part kf not serious. That's what my friends say about a gf or bf they're cheating on or who they aren't planning to stay with because someone else is on their mind. Now younger people sure but nobody I know who's over 24/25 sees someone they don't see as a serious bf because it's wasting our time and theirs and she's a busy person between mentoring visiting home on weekends etc so she doesn't seem worried about their relationship to me. So that makes me think if he lives in New York that's yet another's odd thing as far as for instance my bf only has weekends off and spends almost all of them(except some holidays with his family in another state) with me but if my gf ran off like she did each weekend that kid make me mad. To me it's all fishy as if she had someone else or hoped they've get together

 

[ForensicMass]

Fwiw, my kids went to Bancroft for a shadow day four weeks ago and I asked how many families from princeton there are (We had a house under agreement in Princeton but not panning out so well) I was told 5 families.

I also did find iPhone at both mountain barn and BSR, both were almost exact to where I was. I had to use find iPhone for my daughters phone at wachusett mountain last night (with poor service) and it literally showed the phone going up the ski lift.

Excellent work! So the phone was near mountain barn at 2:25. Most likely, I believe, it was with the killer at not VM at this time. I think she was already in the woods and he was making his escape. She wouldn't have been running past that spot at that time. Her pace was typically 10-11 mins/mile. If she left even at 1:15, she would have passed mountain barn by 1:50 whether she ran north or south on BSR. (All indications are that she ran north). ALSO, if she was some running at mtn barn at 2:25, she would be in a hurry to get back, as she would be on pace to arrive home around 3:10. THe accuracy of the iPhone data says a lot, I think. There are variabilities in the accuracy due to many many factors. But the fact that the user here reports it was very accurate at both locaTions should be considered weighty at this point.

 

[ForensicMass]

Correction....just because this is an upscale town....no you can't be sure that everyone has ac....a lot of these houses are big old homes....this town is where people move to to get away from the hustle and bustle...people with money who want it quiet and simple...who have gentleman farms and enjoy the peace. This isn't upscale like greenwhich CT is upscale....it's not flashy, it's not fancy. It's beautiful and it's peaceful...but I think maybe people are taking it's mention of money and making assumption about the town that are not accurate. People with rare acception....don't have vacation homes elsewhere, or live in help, or high tech cameras....it's just not that kind of place.

We are people who grew up opening our windows in the summer. Yes some people have AC ... but many many people do not.

It is very very quiet in Princeton. When I was there the wknd after the murder...almost to the hour...I was sitting in chairs outside the market eating a sandwich....and what I couldn't help but notice was just how quiet it is. ... if a girl screamed even in a mile radius of where I was sitting, in the quite of the town, you would have heard her scream. If she in fact screamed.

I have to
Disagree with the screaming hypothetical you made and here's why: I am in the thick woods in summer all the time, often treasure hunting or trail running with friends. When we are separated by a a few hundred feet or more it is pretty difficult to yell to one another. At 500', we often don't hear eachother and have to walk to find the other.

PART OF THE REASON ANY AREA SEEMS VERY QUIET IS BECAUSE ALL OF THE DENSE FOLIAGE IS ABSORBING THE AMBIENT SOUND. just because an area seems quiet, doesn't mean there are no sounds being made, it just means they're being absorbed before they reach your ear. Just as Someone sitting outside of a sound-proof insulated recording studio might think it's quiet when just on the other side of the wall there are blaring amps and banging drums.

When you're at that store eating a sandwich, and it's "dead silent" surely there are passing cars, lawns being mowed etc within a mile. And yet it's silent.

 

[Evey]

Some spot she went every time she got to town is where they could meet and likely had some code. Maybe the store maybe wherever her dad and her ate. My bestfriend never considered any dudes a serious bf since I knew her until a year ago because she was hoping a married man she had secret meet ups and company meetings and softball practices with would leave his wife loke he said and never did. And she could have threatened to tell her and he killed her then staged it to seem like a serial killer. But I don't think her love life is what caused it. But I'm just saying it's very odd her parents called her bf a not serious one and she spent all her time away in Princeton. Who knows maybe he's from there and had a friend obsessed with her who knew he wasn't in Australia and took his chance to do what he had obsessed over. And I no way am passing judgment on her if she had any secret things I just am saying it happens without papertrails sometimes and not common but it happens but most girls her and my age wouldn't do as I stated. And he could have been not serious about her and so she looked for love somewhere else it's just no way of knowing and nothing I would fault her on. But if she went to a store maybe she met the person left in his car are lr whatever hence no cellphone trail. I mean this dude to me planned most of this so why he dumb and text or msg her when he cluks run into her? Especially if he follows her snapchat and she mentioned heading to wherever because that makes stalking easy.