Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #20

[Scorpiette]

If MM died in the apartment, why did HCW release the pictures of a that random room asking people to come forward if they recognised the interior?

I hate saying this, but maybe the abuse happened after MM died on the apartment?

 

[Victoria Chambers]

Perhaps these things are info that only the perp could know.

My point was different though. Please consider a scenario where CB went into 5A with the intention to do some of the pervy weirdo stuff he is now infamous for. While doing this he is interrupted and has to leave in a hurry, leaving behind some of his apparatus.

If this did happen, the item would likely be something small and unremarkable not important enough to rule out GM and KM as the PJ still considered them suspects but something they have probably claimed doesn’t belong to them and has not been made public.

If he mentioned to HB that he left his X in 5A then that would be enough info to get OG to Greece and make CB the prime suspect that he is.

Does this make sense?

It makes perfect sense to be fair X

 

[Denis R Tandib]

The problem with that is how would we not know about a foreign item left in the apartment after all this time? During the initial searches by the McCanns, if they had spotted something that didn't belong there, they would have surely found that significant and have spoken out about it. Either as part of the appeals for information or subsequently.

If we assume that the McCann's never found it, but that the police did, why would they have kept quiet about it? Why not mention it to the McCanns or anyone? Given how much all the evidence in this case has been trawled over by various angencies, something like that would be considered significant. Something found in the apartment that didn't belong there, you'd think that information would have come out by now if it was true.

It also doesn’t feel like something CB would naturally mention in such a conversation to HB. He was bragging, whereas leaving something behind makes him look foolish. If he'd left evidence behind, it's something he'd be worried about IMO.

I understand your point. The same argument is equally valid if something was taken. I think it’s possible that something could have been discovered, lost or found, after it initially became apparent MM was missing - that would understandably be a panic situation. In this scenario, the decision to release the information is strategic i.e. does releasing it provide more benefit to the investigation than verifying a suspect at a later date.

In relation to him sharing the info with HB, what can I say, he was admitting to abducting a child, surely this demonstrates he could have said anything?

Everything we suggest is like trying to find a light switch in the dark but IMO the left behind item theory could explain a few things.

 

[Victoria Chambers]

Should investigation of the intruder theory consider other rooms also?

ALL rooms, thoroughly Inside and outside. A proper investigation, for what took place, should have involved the removal of every person from that property. It should of been a "NO ENTRY" zone from the get go. Family included X

 

[Newthoughts]

Interesting analysis.
BTW HCW sounds like IMO he may be unsure whether the "abused" section even happened. Let's hope it didn't.
My question is: if death-in-apartment is what happened, what would the intruder do next?

IMO taking the body would be his first and most sensible option as it would be a major piece of evidence. We already know from Tannerman and Smithman that nobody would really stop somebody carrying what would look like a sleeping child.

After that we're back to exactly the same issue that we have in all scenarios - what did he do next

In relation to evidence that may put CB in 5A and that only the perp could know. What if he didn’t see anything and what if he didn’t take anything. What if he left something in 5A which is information that has never been released to the public. What if CB shared this info with HB and HB shared it with OG.

There are a lot of ifs here but it would explain a few things.

Wouldn't that leave forensic evidence?

 

[mrjitty]

ALL rooms, thoroughly Inside and outside. A proper investigation, for what took place, should have involved the removal of every person from that property. It should of been a "NO ENTRY" zone from the get go. Family included X

It's interesting in some UK and US cases I have followed, the family has tended to occupy the crime scene for days afterwards, before a full forensic search has taken place.

 

[Chiatos]

I'm looking for those news items about GA -and a colleague of his- being involved in crooked business.
The items had been posted not so long ago.
Anyone?

 

[SuperdadV8]

I'm looking for those news items about GA -and a colleague of his- being involved in crooked business.
The items had been posted not so long ago.
Anyone?

Ex-cop who slammed Madeleine McCann's parents in Netflix doc is jailed for planning violent break-ins

 

[mrjitty]

IMO taking the body would be his first and most sensible option as it would be a major piece of evidence.

RSBM

I mean why does anyone stage a crime scene?

Staging is like a reverse arrow, showing how the perp sought to obscure linkages to themselves but often instead revealing them.

The usual reason to stage the body, is to obscure cause of death, or forensics. Perps who don't need to worry about that stuff, usually just dump the body.

It's why I find CB's rape interesting. He did not kill/hide the victim in order to obscure forensics.

Given we do have some forensic evidence in 5A, i do wonder if MM died there, but that wasn't CBs idea. But once he did it, he needed to stage the scene.

 

[enjy15]

I hate saying this, but maybe the abuse happened after MM died on the apartment?

Oh gosh that’s a terrible thought isn’t it but wouldn’t put anything past CB. If he recorded the abuse and that was the situation perhaps that’s why the German LE are certain she is dead if they have photos/videos of that.

 

[enjy15]

Ex-cop who slammed Madeleine McCann's parents in Netflix doc is jailed for planning violent break-ins

“a key player in an organised gang by giving accomplices information about victims and the target homes.“

“the guilty verdict yesterday he had been convicted of crimes including kidnapping”

I know this is extremely far fetched but could the PJ be somewhat implicit in the case, hence the apparent incompetence/crime scene blunders/heavy blame on the parents? Not saying they’re going the culprits but what if this was just meant to be a organised robbery but it went wrong and the PJ are covering something?

 

[SuperdadV8]

“a key player in an organised gang by giving accomplices information about victims and the target homes.“

“the guilty verdict yesterday he had been convicted of crimes including kidnapping”

I know this is extremely far fetched but could the PJ be somewhat implicit in the case, hence the apparent incompetence/crime scene blunders/heavy blame on the parents? Not saying they’re going the culprits but what if this was just meant to be a organised robbery but it went wrong and the PJ are covering something?

Two cops related to at least two disappearences in that area, writing books about blaming the parents or maybe brawling up them to get confessions and that are convicted of crimes later, seem more noticable than far fetched to me IMO.

 

[Lilly b]

It makes perfect sense to be fair X

I can't see that he went in just to do something, as parents kept coming back and not necessarily at set times, I think he went in to take her. Then took her to a different location, and has filmed something for gratification and who knows what else, he would of been in and out like a flash.
He could of gone in the night or 2 before to sus the place out, and that's when the neighbours heard crying, more plausible I think imo

 

[SuperdadV8]

I can't see that he went in just to do something, as parents kept coming back and not necessarily at set times, I think he went in to take her. Then took her to a different location, and has filmed something for gratification and who knows what else, he would of been in and out like a flash.
He could of gone in the night or 2 before to sus the place out, and that's when the neighbours heard crying, more plausible I think imo

Wasn't it reported, that the PJ/GNR sniffer dogs traced MM to (empty?) apartment 5J?

 

[peanutJelly]

I'm not suggesting there would have been any major trauma. If it went down in this way, the most likely method would have been suffocation or strangulation. You cannot examine a pillow for evidence of smothering. Even with a body, it's one of the hardest methods of murder to diagnose and is normally identified via pillow fibres being found in the air passages.

Not sure I accept your argument on the risk side of things either. Suffocating a small child in a concealed room where nobody is watching versus carrying an alive child out of that apartment, a child who could call out at any point. I know which one I think carries the lesser risk of being caught in the act. Yes, one of 2 or 3 people might have walked in on him in the apartment, but there are multiple people who could have come across him once he's leaving the apartment. There are obvious reasons why leaving with the girl dead would be easier to hide than with her alive.

Is it possible that MM was killed in the apartment and he took her with him, and that’s what gave him the idea discussed about years later in the chat room about taking someone for days? Maybe after how easy it was for him to take her away, and dare I say it with the associated adrenaline rush, he then thought about how possible it could be to take a child alive?

 

[snowpea666]

I'm not suggesting there would have been any major trauma. If it went down in this way, the most likely method would have been suffocation or strangulation. You cannot examine a pillow for evidence of smothering. Even with a body, it's one of the hardest methods of murder to diagnose and is normally identified via pillow fibres being found in the air passages.

Not sure I accept your argument on the risk side of things either. Suffocating a small child in a concealed room where nobody is watching versus carrying an alive child out of that apartment, a child who could call out at any point. I know which one I think carries the lesser risk of being caught in the act. Yes, one of 2 or 3 people might have walked in on him in the apartment, but there are multiple people who could have come across him once he's leaving the apartment. There are obvious reasons why leaving with the girl dead would be easier to hide than with her alive.

Could indeed be, and I'm not at all saying this is not plausible just wondering then what the concrete evidence that she is dead could be? how would LE really know she is dead, we were thinking vid or pics etc, if he was a lone wolf why LE looking to find the Russian brothers, and again what was the job he had to do ? OMO

 

[Newthoughts]

I can't see that he went in just to do something, as parents kept coming back and not necessarily at set times, I think he went in to take her. Then took her to a different location, and has filmed something for gratification and who knows what else, he would of been in and out like a flash.
He could of gone in the night or 2 before to sus the place out, and that's when the neighbours heard crying, more plausible I think imo

I agree with your opinion totally. IMO he knew they were coming back and forth to check. Why attempt something in the flat that takes time when you can just grab MM quickly and be gone. Greatest gain - lowest risk

Personally my hope is he accidentally killed her in the flat before she even had time to be scared because that now seems the least awful of the options. But IMO it was an abduction and who knows what afterwards.

The appt was such an easy location for someone like him. I do wonder if he'd checked out previous families.

 

[snowpea666]

The problem with that is how would we not know about a foreign item left in the apartment after all this time? During the initial searches by the McCanns, if they had spotted something that didn't belong there, they would have surely found that significant and have spoken out about it. Either as part of the appeals for information or subsequently.

If we assume that the McCann's never found it, but that the police did, why would they have kept quiet about it? Why not mention it to the McCanns or anyone? Given how much all the evidence in this case has been trawled over by various angencies, something like that would be considered significant. Something found in the apartment that didn't belong there, you'd think that information would have come out by now if it was true.

It also doesn’t feel like something CB would naturally mention in such a conversation to HB. He was bragging, whereas leaving something behind makes him look foolish. If he'd left evidence behind, it's something he'd be worried about IMO.

yes but I don't think they would put out an appeal for say, handcuffs etc, who if they took a child or anyone come forward to say oh yeh they are mine ?? and no one would mention it if it was a key item to nail the perp.

 

[SuperdadV8]

Wasn't it reported, that the PJ/GNR sniffer dogs traced MM to (empty?) apartment 5J?

Is that confirmed?

"At about 23.00 accompanied by a PJ inspector, the searches were begun. After Rex was given the girl's clothing to sniff, he began to search on the ground floor of block 5 and when he passed the door of apartment 5 A (the place the girl had disappeared from) according to his handler, officer Fernandes, the dog altered its behaviour, sniffing with greater intensity than he had done before. Apartment 5J of the same block was also checked as the dog had been more agitated than before as if there were a very strong strange odour there. It was stated that this apartment had been unoccupied for some time. Afterwards, the same kind of search was carried out using the dog Zarus which in general terms showed the same behaviour in the same places as Rex had done."

Documented Evidence - Page 5

 

[Newthoughts]

yes but I don't think they would put out an appeal for say, handcuffs etc, who if they took a child or anyone come forward to say oh yeh they are mine ?? and no one would mention it if it was a key item to nail the perp.

But he had time to take a child why would he leave anything?

Also the McCanns have spent years trying to find their child. Surely they'd have given details of anything that anyone could link to a suspect in that search. No matter how insignificant or dodgy - it could be a clue.

Likewise anything that MM was wearing or holding or that had gone that night could provide vital forensic evidence if found by a member of the public and therefore they would want it in the public domain. They would want the public to report finding it, be it pyjamas, trainer pants, blankets whatever

So I'm tending towards something that happened or that he saw - mainly because thats the only thing I can think of that wouldn't help lead to the perp.