Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #21

[mrjitty]

New podcast from Mark Saunokonoko discussing CB evidence if anyone interested

They've Taken Her - They've Taken Her - Omny.fm

I must say I find Wolter's comments highly unconvincing on the cell tower

He doesn't know about the radius?

How can he be speaking in the way he is, if he doesn't know the spectrum of where that call places the suspect?

Or is he just talking crap here?

And there is no "ocean club tower" and even if there was, how does it place CB at OC?

This feels all very light weight, unless he has another very heft piece of evidence he is not telling us about.

But then he asks for videos/photos - which leads me to believe he does not already have the same ...

 

[Denis R Tandib]

The door at GMs check is a weird one because it doesn't seem to have been unusual enough to have alarmed him but did make him check MM was in bed? Or would he have done that anyway? Nothing else alerted him at all to anything untoward so part of me wonders who shut the door when they left for dinner at 8.30 and how open it had been. Part how much do you think you noticed in retrospect when looking for any detail that might help. I'm unsure about it's significance

I agree totally about GM being relaxed and having had a drink or two against someone in high alert. That could have contributed to him ignoring the door perhaps? I also keep in mind that this was towards the end of an uneventful holiday where any misgivings about the system would have long gone lulling them into a false sense of security. But because their only worry was their children waking up so I think he'd been a parent long enough to be quiet

MO's check noted the twins but not MM so I assume the door still not fully opened but probably more than slightly ajar. But I remain sceptical about how much notice he took and his knowledge of how it should look.

So I'm unsure about the door but I think they'd have noticed if someone was there. But my opinions are coloured by my feeling that CB would be best off getting in and out as quickly as possible

I think the point in your last paragraph is an important one for you to think about. It comes down to intention. If CB went into 5A with the sole intention of abducting MM, then I think it’s fair to assume a planned process where a quick in and out makes sense.

I favour a situation where CB entered the apartment to be a weird pervert because it’s an unequivocal fact that that is what he was ... he had no prior convictions for abducting children and has had none since. This obviously doesn’t guarantee that he didn’t abduct MM or IG but it’s aligned to his known, proven history which IMO makes the pervert intention more likely.

So far as the door is concerned, GM and KM have mentally reviewed it countless times. It’s a small, seemingly unremarkable fact but it is a fact. Their nighttime routine was to leave the door just slightly ajar. On GM’s check it was half open. Again, this could have been a mistake, perhaps when they left for dinner on the 3rd it was left more open than normal. In my mind though, if we are coming up with theories, it makes more sense to have one that explains all the facts not just some of them.

 

[Chiatos]

According to news, Christian Bruckner is in hospital due to broken ribs.

In Dutch:
DPG Media Privacy Gate

According to news, Christian Bruckner is in hospital due to broken ribs.

In German:
Christian B. soll sich in Zelle zwei Rippen gebrochen haben - Maddie-Verdächtiger in Notaufnahme

Seems like, that our suspect has been a bit careless, in his solitary confinement....

Hopefully, that he will get well soon, not to jeopardise the investigations.

Wow, CB must have tripped on his shoelaces. How unfortunate.

 

[Dlk79]

Maddie suspect's ribs broken in cell as he's seen in public for first time

A few more details in the UK press, still very unclear what happened.

 

[peanutJelly]

Thanks, Peanut. Bookmarked. Those have been so interesting. Looking forward to having a listen.

Yes I’m looking forward to what you all think. I enjoyed the previous episodes too.

 

[peanutJelly]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

We also need to bear in mind that PF was a resident rather than a tourist , and at the time of MMs disappearance I was surprised how many parents had done the same as her parents (I have children the same ages so it always stayed with me, having never done the same either at home or abroad). So I think from PFs perspective this was at the time another family in a line of many others who had put the caution that they may have felt at home to the side while staying in what they felt was holiday freedom and security. IMO

 

[SuperdadV8]

According to that german report, there might have been one unfortunate collision with a staff member and also FF is meanwhile aussuming that MM is dead.

Braunschweig: Verdächtiger im Fall Maddie in Untersuchungszelle verletzt - WELT

 

[mrjitty]

Thanks, Peanut. Bookmarked. Those have been so interesting. Looking forward to having a listen.

It's most interesting for the interview with HCW. The journo pushed him quite hard and I think he was quite flakey on the cell tower. Though that could be because he simply does not want to discuss the evidence. I get the impression his case has nothing to do with the traditional evidence that has been discussed down the years. His case has nothing to do with 5A, dogs, smiths etc - rather he has something that comes after 10pm, which indicates not only death, but culpability of his suspect.

But then the strangeness. He is so definite on this - yet it's not enough to have high conviction of winning at trial.

I find the supposed conspiracy by the Met & HCW to close the investigation to be highly unlikely. Why would germany get involved in this fiasco to help them? This was not even a case germany had on its books.

 

[Ardoch]

Maddie suspect's ribs broken in cell as he's seen in public for first time

A few more details in the UK press, still very unclear what happened.

And The Mail
Pictured: Madeleine suspect is loaded into ambulance after he was 'assaulted' in prison | Daily Mail Online

 

[Denis R Tandib]

It's most interesting for the interview with HCW. The journo pushed him quite hard and I think he was quite flakey on the cell tower. Though that could be because he simply does not want to discuss the evidence. I get the impression his case has nothing to do with the traditional evidence that has been discussed down the years. His case has nothing to do with 5A, dogs, smiths etc - rather he has something that comes after 10pm, which indicates not only death, but culpability of his suspect.

But then the strangeness. He is so definite on this - yet it's not enough to have high conviction of winning at trial.

I find the supposed conspiracy by the Met & HCW to close the investigation to be highly unlikely. Why would germany get involved in this fiasco to help them? This was not even a case germany had on its books.

I think you previously mentioned that HCW keeps doing interviews for the UK Murdoch press. It seems more strange to me that he keeps doing interviews in Australia. By comparison, I haven’t seen him do any interviews in the US. I can’t think of any reason for this unless there is a connection to Australia that hasn’t been released. Any thoughts?

 

[Newthoughts]

I think you previously mentioned that HCW keeps doing interviews for the UK Murdoch press. It seems more strange to me that he keeps doing interviews in Australia. By comparison, I haven’t seen him do any interviews in the US. I can’t think of any reason for this unless there is a connection to Australia that hasn’t been released. Any thoughts?

My feelings are that his apparent constant interviews with UK press had more to do with them going to him to get a distraction from the mess out govt is making. A govt they support. However I was unaware of the Australian interest

 

[SuperdadV8]

And The Mail
Pictured: Madeleine suspect is loaded into ambulance after he was 'assaulted' in prison | Daily Mail Online

My goodness, he doesn't seem to look very good in his shabby clothes and the cuffs around his hand and feet. To me that looks like there is something about the theory, that he has been rioting in his cell. But why did he? Maybe FF told him before, that the appeal in the rape case has been rejected? The timeline from the last ECJ decision until now could fit.

Also interesting fact, that he seems to grow his hair and a beard. Typical behavior from a lot of suspects, that are kept in confinement just to make it harder to be recognized. MN did that by the end of his trial too.

So maybe he seems to be convinced, to spend some more years in prison IMO. Let's hope, he will make the decision to talk very soon. It has already become quiet about FF either....

 

[mrjitty]

I think you previously mentioned that HCW keeps doing interviews for the UK Murdoch press. It seems more strange to me that he keeps doing interviews in Australia. By comparison, I haven’t seen him do any interviews in the US. I can’t think of any reason for this unless there is a connection to Australia that hasn’t been released. Any thoughts?

This is what I don't understand about his media strategy

It makes sense to do structured media tours - e.g with UK media, to reach a certain audience. But why is he doing so many 1:1 exclusives with various outlets? Like is this a social media strategy or whats the point? I don't see how this interview helps at all.

 

[SuperdadV8]

The "SPIEGEL" is reporting a fight between CB and 2 members of staff by trying to put ankle cuffs on him, what he rejected and than felt down.

Fall Madeleine McCann: Christian B. verletzte sich bei einer Rangelei mit zwei Justizwachtmeistern - DER SPIEGEL - Panorama

 

[SuperdadV8]

Lots of Info:

ZEIT ONLINE | Lesen Sie zeit.de mit Werbung oder im PUR-Abo. Sie haben die Wahl.

"According to the prisoner Christian B. himself, the events took place quite differently. It is true that he smeared the cell with yoghurt and sunk the roll of toilet paper in the toilet. However, that was merely a reaction to the inappropriate behaviour of the judicial guards. So they would have provoked him on his arrival with sentences like: "Beautiful that you are back!" or "For you today we have a very special room, the suite number 2!" When he then asked if he was allowed to smoke, they had yourselves: "We determine here who smokes and who does not."

After his yoghurt protest, officials eventually came into his cell and put a belly belt on him and locked the handcuffs inside. Then they would have asked him to get down on his knees in front of them to put on the shackles. When he refused, they had "taken him off his feet." During this treatment, he had crashed his side onto the wooden couch and suffered the two broken ribs, which were confirmed by a doctor in the hospital. "The possibilities of a prisoner to injure himself in the presence of officials are limited," says Christian B.'s second criminal defense attorney Johann Schwenn. He added: "Unfortunately, an assault by the officers in the manner described by the client would not be an isolated case. The presumption of innocence sometimes struggles with the police and the judiciary – especially when it comes to an alleged sex murderer. That's where the inhibitions fall."

Exactly what happened must be determined by the Braunschweig Police Inspectorate. Christian B.'s hearing took place yesterday with a two-hour delay. He cannot expect an early dismissal. He is now back in Schleswig-Holstein. Since he had contact with several people, he is now in quarantine in the JVA Lübeck – in a high-security cell."

And also Schwenn's first public statement. Hopefully the case is developing some movement now!

 

[SuperdadV8]

JVA Lübeck is about 90 kilometers away from JVA Kiel.

That's bad for FF's precious and expensive time either.

 

[Anxala]

It's most interesting for the interview with HCW. The journo pushed him quite hard and I think he was quite flakey on the cell tower. Though that could be because he simply does not want to discuss the evidence. I get the impression his case has nothing to do with the traditional evidence that has been discussed down the years. His case has nothing to do with 5A, dogs, smiths etc - rather he has something that comes after 10pm, which indicates not only death, but culpability of his suspect.

But then the strangeness. He is so definite on this - yet it's not enough to have high conviction of winning at trial.

I find the supposed conspiracy by the Met & HCW to close the investigation to be highly unlikely. Why would germany get involved in this fiasco to help them? This was not even a case germany had on its books.

Well that was a very good listen. I do appreciate Mark S for the clear way he frames his questions, doing his best to leave as little possible room for ambiguity in the answers.

Re BIB ^ I'm of the same opinion, that what the LE must have as 'concrete evidence' is likely entirely post not just 10pm that evening but possibly beyond the 3rd May even? I got the impression from HCW that the LE is working backwards rather than forwards, hence the continued focus on that phone call.

So, presumably, what they have must be actual 'footage' featuring CB and MM, since nothing else imo could really or realistically back up such a confident position/charge.

HCW, for all his 'This I don't know' and 'This I can't say for sure' and 'This I can't answer' does still come across as someone absolutely sure that what he does know/have leaves CB's guilt in no doubt.

I don't know what to make of the alleged Met-Ger conspiracy to get the investigation closed - it does seem unlikely... but then, Colin Sutton:

However, before this, just a few days after the NotW story I did receive a call from a senior officer in the Met whom I knew quite well. This officer told me I would do better to avoid the McCann investigation if it did happen, because "You wouldn't be happy leading an investigation where you were told what you could look at and what you could not".

Colin Sutton: Madeleine McCann and Operation Grange

So.

Anyway, Mark S is clearly as perplexed as we are and is already on the complex job of separating the wheat from the chaff.

Thanks again @peanutJelly for link. I'd forgotten about his podcasts so much appreciated.

 

[peanutJelly]

Well that was a very good listen. I do appreciate Mark S for the clear way he frames his questions, doing his best to leave as little possible room for ambiguity in the answers.

Re BIB ^ I'm of the same opinion, that what the LE must have as 'concrete evidence' is likely entirely post not just 10pm that evening but possibly beyond the 3rd May even? I got the impression from HCW that the LE is working backwards rather than forwards, hence the continued focus on that phone call.

So, presumably, what they have must be actual 'footage' featuring CB and MM, since nothing else imo could really or realistically back up such a confident position/charge.

HCW, for all his 'This I don't know' and 'This I can't say for sure' and 'This I can't answer' does still come across as someone absolutely sure that what he does know/have leaves CB's guilt in no doubt.

I don't know what to make of the alleged Met-Ger conspiracy to get the investigation closed - it does seem unlikely... but then, Colin Sutton:

Colin Sutton: Madeleine McCann and Operation Grange

So.

Anyway, Mark S is clearly as perplexed as we are and is already on the complex job of separating the wheat from the chaff.

Thanks again @peanutJelly for link. I'd forgotten about his podcasts so much appreciated.

Thanks for listening to it! I agree with the above. I really enjoyed Mark’s previous podcasts, just the right level of questions, suggestions and probing that I was comfortable with. Completely agree that HCW knows exactly the evidence that proves it was CB, and remain suspicious that the evidence he has is not admissible in court because of how it was obtained

 

[peanutJelly]

There does seem to be a lot of interest in this case in Australia, do we have any natives who could give a perspective on this?

 

[redplanet]

I think there are lots of possible answers on this but I’ll give you one example which I’m thinking:

1. CB waits until all Tapas group go to the restaurant (Please confirm that they were all seated before GM makes his check, I can’t remember) and enters 5A;
2. He goes into the kids bedroom to be a weird pervert, while in there he hears the gate outside (We know it makes noise from PF or CTs statement) and it’s GM making his check;
3. CB hides ... not many options (GM went in each room of the small apartment except the parents room during his check) other than behind the kids bedroom door or in the parents room - I think he had time to get to the parents room;
4. GM exits 5A and CB lays low for a while because he can hear GM and JW talking outside;
5. He makes a visual check of the side street from the lounge/diner and when clear, he goes back into the kids room to continue being weird;
6. MM wakes up and starts freaking out because there is a weirdo in her room;
7. CB, aware that there are people outside and a stream of people coming to check the kids, restrains MM ... probably unintentionally suffocates her;
8. CB, obviously spooked, opens the window shutters to check outside, thereby letting in the light visible during MOs check;
9. MO makes his check before CB has a chance to exit and CB hides again;
10. Once MO leaves, CB opens the window in the kids room to see/hear better outside;
11. He makes other checks of the side street and front of the apartment and when the coast is clear, he exits via the front door.

Feel free to offer counter thoughts, explanations or examples. Might get us closer to what happened if we pull theories apart.

Yes all 9 were at table when GM left table to check.
The reason you propose for CB entering 5A may well be correct: to be a weird pervert (without necessarily waking anyone). IMO this indicates that he already knew before 3rd there were children alone. IMO he probably learned this while attempting to enter 5A on evening 1st or on evening 2nd???