Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #21

[redplanet]

Hard to say but my inclination would be that it was just the girl there. The Totmans weren't booked in the Tapas on the Thursday, and they only mention picking up the 3yr old girl from the creche. And they only mention JT going. I'd have presumed the 4yr old boy stayed with the Mother while he did this. I just can't see the logic of carrying a sleeping child from the apartment block they were staying, to pick up another child from the creche.

The direction in which JTa saw the man+child cross was extremely well publicised: eastward.. JTo came forward IMO because his movements did include him+child crossing that junction eastward.

 

[snowpea666]

The arguments here make no sense -

A friend said: “Any police force or prosecuting chief should not be boasting... but should be remaining silent as in the case of the Met Police

Why? What have the Met police achieved in this investigation to highlight them as a good example of how to conduct this case. They've had millions in funding and achieved absolutely nothing.

“They should... not be suggesting that members of the public would be reaching the same conclusion as they do about the suspect if they knew the evidence they had. It is beyond bizarre and not very helpful to the investigation.”

Why shouldn't they? What problem is it causing the investigation exactly? Just sounds like a nonsense comment IMO without any reason, aside from emotional opinion.

“If Mr Wolters has got any significant evidence we cannot understand why the key suspect is not being questioned."

Then you haven't been listening. It isn't as simple as that, once they go down that avenue, all cards are on the table. And why do that when you haven't quite got everything you need to convict, but still have the time and opportunity to gather more evidence?

“If they think he is a red herring and had no involvement they should say so, instead of playing games, because the real culprit could be out there and escaping any scrutiny.”

The most bizarre statement of all. Gives the impression this 'source' wants/believes CB to be innocent. They don't like where this is going yet what proof do they have that CB isn't guilty? Why make this comment, don't they want the correct man to face justice? Also, they assert earlier that HCW should just be silent and get on with the investigation, but now they assert that he should speak out to say if CB is a red herring. It's all just very odd. Would love to know the 'source' of this. They sound like an absolute buffoon.

Totally agree, you would think they would be somewhat happy that finally they were close to maybe finding out the truth, why in a million years do say CB is or could be a red herring ? and so what if HCW uses methods a little strange to them! at least he is keeping CB/MM in the medias and publics focus , I think HCW is doing the best so far, by a long shot.

 

[redplanet]

Hard to say but my inclination would be that it was just the girl there. The Totmans weren't booked in the Tapas on the Thursday, and they only mention picking up the 3yr old girl from the creche. And they only mention JT going. I'd have presumed the 4yr old boy stayed with the Mother while he did this. I just can't see the logic of carrying a sleeping child from the apartment block they were staying, to pick up another child from the creche.

Another thing to be considered is: only one key was provided to guests per apartment.

 

[Scorpiette]

"Drainage work was taking place to pipes in the town around the time and deep holes were dotted around the town. Some of the drains were filled in and covered over a day after Madeleine went missing. Some locals believe the toddler either wandered out of her room in search of her parents and tumbled into one of the pits, others think whoever attempted to abduct her may have panicked and dumped her body into one of the holes in an attempt to cover their tracks and then absconded."


What it’s like to holiday at the beach resort where Madeleine McCann went missing

I always wondered about the drainage works.
A scenario...a burglar (CB or whoever), lifts the children's bedroom window, sees 3 children inside and/or hears one of the parents enter the apartment...so they change their mind and make a hasty retreat. MM wakes up, sees window is open, climbs out in search of parents maybe...falls down hole dug up, unfortunately knocks herself out, so no crying...
BUT,
it sounds like HW is convinced CB has killed MM, and just needs that extra bit of evidence, so I have discounted the above scenario now.

 

[redplanet]

I always wondered about the drainage works.
A scenario...a burglar (CB or whoever), lifts the children's bedroom window, sees 3 children inside and/or hears one of the parents enter the apartment...so they change their mind and make a hasty retreat. MM wakes up, sees window is open, climbs out in search of parents maybe...falls down hole dug up, unfortunately knocks herself out, so no crying...
BUT,
it sounds like HW is convinced CB has killed MM, and just needs that extra bit of evidence, so I have discounted the above scenario now.

A variation of that might be: burglar opens window, child slides lounge door open, goes out.

 

[redplanet]

Another suggestion is that JT did see Totman walking from West to East but could have, after all the panic shock and confusion, unconsciously placed an 'imaginary child' in his arms.
Maybe she'd seen him carrying a child on a previous occasion.
It's not unusual for our minds to take components of what we've seen on other occasions and weave it into a distorted image or memory.
IMO looking for a rational explanation to Tannerman will be inconclusive and I think Redwood suggested the same when he said 'we're almost certain' that Totman wasn't the abductor.
I think that's why Totman is still on MC's website.

IMO JTa said a man+child crossed eastward because that is exactly what she saw, and JTo came forward because he+child did cross eastward. These are good intelligent witnesses. What is confusing people is the incorrectly simplified version presented by OG.

 

[Trivento]

Have wondered about the wink HCW gives at 24.45 in this doc , just as he says “I’m not allowed “ ...could be nothing in it of course though...

 

[redplanet]

Another thing to be considered is: only one key was provided to guests per apartment.

.... also to consider is if one child wants to walk/dawdle and the other needs to get back to apartment speedily.

 

[tedtink]

IMO JTa said a man+child crossed eastward because that is exactly what she saw, and JTo came forward because he+child did cross eastward. These are good intelligent witnesses. What is confusing people is the incorrectly simplified version presented by OG.

Yes, we're not privy to Redwood's detail regarding what the family were doing that night. But I'll give JTanner the benefit of the doubt here..........

"One of the things that we picked up very quickly was the fact that there was a night crèche that was operating from the main Ocean Club reception – and 8 families had left 11 children in there – and one particular family we spoke to us gave us information that was really interesting and exciting. In fact, I would say it was – it was a revelation moment when, having discussed with them what they were doing on the night, they themselves believed that they could be the Tanner sighting."

Perhaps the Totmans were dining at the Millenium with oldest child and friends - Dr T left minutes earlier to pick up daughter from the night creche, walked back to apartment, realising he had no key, walked back towards the restaurant to meet his wife who may have got delayed for some reason.

Or he had dropped the blanket on the way back from the creche and was hurrying back trying to find it.

 

[redplanet]

I always wondered about the drainage works.
A scenario...a burglar (CB or whoever), lifts the children's bedroom window, sees 3 children inside and/or hears one of the parents enter the apartment...so they change their mind and make a hasty retreat. MM wakes up, sees window is open, climbs out in search of parents maybe...falls down hole dug up, unfortunately knocks herself out, so no crying...
BUT,
it sounds like HW is convinced CB has killed MM, and just needs that extra bit of evidence, so I have discounted the above scenario now.

If someone falls into a trench and next morning workmen arrive, they wiil see the person before they fill in the trench IMO. However a manhole without a cover would be dangerous.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P15/15VOLUMEXVa_Page_4014.jpg

 

[vermisstekindersuche]

Hi all !

DISCLAIMER : - I don't have any intention to comment on the Madeleine case in general (as I don't have any interest on it at all) and I don't have intention as well to comment on Christian Brueckner with relation to Madeleine as well. I'm here just to post my opinion on the Hans Christian Wolters allegations.

DISCLAIMER 2 : - I do have some interest in Christian Brueckner as I want to RULE HIM OUT as having any involvement on another missing children "case" that I'm reviewing. I will not make any claims about my believes of his involvement on the Madeleine case as it's outside of the scope of my personal investigation. I will post my believes about what Hans Christian Wolters have on him.

I will not post a link to all media articles where what I'm about to state is mentioned as one can simply browse this thread to find them out.

Hans Christian Wolters claims that he have evidences that Madeleine is dead and that CB is the one who killed. He came to this conclusion in 2017.

- He doesn't know if the Portuguese police and/or the English police have the same evidences that he have on CB.

- He does know that the evidence that he have might not be enough to accuse CB of the crime so he is asking for public assistance.

- He apparently is not questioning CB and he is waiting to gather more clues so what is this all about ? Quite simple !!!

Here : - Witness who helped re-launch Madeleine McCann investigation says Christian Brueckner is guilty | Daily Mail Online

On 2017 Helge Busching was himself having issues with justice and decide to reveal stuff about CB to the police. This allowed German police to "investigate" CB further to (at least attempt) charge him with other crimes.

Whatever Hans Christian Wolters have is NOT a physical item like Madeleine cloths found on CB properties and it's NOT something like exclusive movies/photos related to Madeleine found on searches made on the CB context. If that were to be the case other police forces couldn't have that evidence (that HCW claim that other polices can also have) and even if it were something downloaded from the internet like abuse material from pedophile sites (and no - I don't believe at all on the existence of Madeleine content on that sort of place) then HCW could talk about that without no issues as the material found would "not change" no matter what CB would tell, meaning that whatever Hans Christian Wolters it must have some sort of "declaration" or testimonial that are word of some people only and not unalterable evidences. That is why he will not tell. Let's assume that Helge Busching told the police exactly how CB killed Madeleine. This is the sort of "evidence" that Hans Christian Wolters might have - or so I believe.

Now Hans Christian Wolters would LOVE to search all places related to CB not only because of MADELEINE but also because of ALL OTHER CASES that CB might be involved in. It might not even be about MADELEINE at all and it might not even be related to missing children.

When news about CB did appear on the media relating him to SEVERAL missing children cases I could "exclude" him immediately from several of those cases without even having to think allot but making this link DO HELP Hans Christian Wolters and why ? Simple !

If you "paint" the image of CB as a monster that abduct and kill children and if you can link him to the most (in)famous missing children case ever - MADELEINE - then people will co-operate ! Why ? Hans Christian Wolters needs to search all that he can about CB even on the context of other crimes but he can't as he doesn't know (outside of German) where CB did live and stay, etc ... But if he can get people to ALLOW HIM TO SEARCH then he might get evidences if not to charge on the Madeleine case it can be used to link and charge on other cases. Publicity of the Madeleine case do allow Hans Christian Wolters to reach a bigger audience and OUTSIDE Germany. If Portuguese people or even people from other countries start to ask German police (on this case Hans Christian Wolters) to search CB old properties and vehicles because they don't want to be living in a place where a body of a child might be buried then Hans Christian Wolters can search the place (if the current owners do ask for it) and eventually gather stuff on CB that might link him with other crimes, cracking those crimes up.

Whatever Hans Christian Wolters have is not related to material gather during 2016 search as well. Hans Christian Wolters "declared" that only in 2017 they did conclude that Madeleine did die and that CB was the killer. It have to be related to Busching accusations. I'm NOT AWARE of any re-examination on "Inga files" for Madeleine DNA comparison or in other words items fond on CB places like child clothing / swimsuits - I'm not aware if they were re-tested to see if there were some DNA traces of Madeleine but even if they were it would be an exclusive evidence that other police forces wouldn't have for sure and it wouldn't matter to publish that as CB wouldn't be able to alter his statement of facts.

For me HCW method serves several objectives and apart from all that was stated it will "agitate waters" as well. A stagnated case will not bring anything new. When those statements of HCW were made the interest on the Madeleine case did rise up again. Same for other missing children cases. It's better to have people talking and investigating and remembering over this matter rather than having no clues and no place to go further. Agitating waters it's better. Stagnated waters is bad. People will go no-where.

Madeleine McCann's parents believe probe into German suspect is 'beyond bizarre'

Speaking to the Sunday Mirror in June, Mr. Wolters, who admits he does not have enough evidence to charge Brueckner, said: “We don’t try to speak because it’s not the right time. We don’t believe he will say he did it.

“We think we have 90 per cent evidence. If he knows what this is, he can try to change his story.”

Again if Wolters were to have something "palpable" and "material" like photos/videos/solid evidence what would matter if CB would "try to change his story" ? He is arrested, he will go no-where and couldn't change a picture or a video or the fact that DNA were found here or there or couldn't change the fact of having stuff that could incriminate him. Now what HE CAN CHANGE is words and stories and declarations so what Wolters is "hiding" it have to be something stated by witness.

At any rate it doesn't matter because as long as people will co-operate Wolters might be able to catch "other crimes" committed by CB. If he doesn't find anything he can just say that he doesn't have enough to charge and that's it. The strategy looks like that just harvest for clues in ALL CRIMES that CB might be related to at the same time with the help of people.

 

[redplanet]

Yes, we're not privy to Redwood's detail regarding what the family were doing that night. But I'll give JTanner the benefit of the doubt here..........

"One of the things that we picked up very quickly was the fact that there was a night crèche that was operating from the main Ocean Club reception – and 8 families had left 11 children in there – and one particular family we spoke to us gave us information that was really interesting and exciting. In fact, I would say it was – it was a revelation moment when, having discussed with them what they were doing on the night, they themselves believed that they could be the Tanner sighting."

Perhaps the Totmans were dining at the Millenium with oldest child and friends - Dr T left minutes earlier to pick up daughter from the night creche, walked back to apartment, realising he had no key, walked back towards the restaurant to meet his wife who may have got delayed for some reason.

Or he had dropped the blanket on the way back from the creche and was hurrying back trying to find it.

Yes tedtink this paragraph of yours is good good good.

"Perhaps the Totmans were dining at the Millenium with oldest child and friends - Dr T left minutes earlier to pick up daughter from the night creche, walked back to apartment, realising he had no key, walked back towards the restaurant to meet his wife who may have got delayed for some reason".

I wish I had thought of the Millenium. The sequence works great with Millennium (but not with dinner in apartment and not with restaurants near the church). TY.

 

[redplanet]

Yes tedtink this paragraph of yours is good good good.

"Perhaps the Totmans were dining at the Millenium with oldest child and friends - Dr T left minutes earlier to pick up daughter from the night creche, walked back to apartment, realising he had no key, walked back towards the restaurant to meet his wife who may have got delayed for some reason".

I wish I had thought of the Millenium. The sequence works great with Millennium (but not with dinner in apartment and not with restaurants near the church). TY.

... and now I realise ... evening meals were included in price, choice of 2 restaurants, one was fully booked, so they ate at the other ... Millenium.

 

[Zuleika]

A variation of that might be: burglar opens window, child slides lounge door open, goes out.

Mother said child wouldn’t be able to do that .
Kind of makes you wonder then why she said the door had been left unlocked so child could come to find them if she woke up a second time .

 

[redplanet]

@vermisstekindersuche Thankyou for your post. You make interesting points.

 

[tedtink]

Hi all !

DISCLAIMER : - I don't have any intention to comment on the Madeleine case in general (as I don't have any interest on it at all) and I don't have intention as well to comment on Christian Brueckner with relation to Madeleine as well. I'm here just to post my opinion on the Hans Christian Wolters allegations.

DISCLAIMER 2 : - I do have some interest in Christian Brueckner as I want to RULE HIM OUT as having any involvement on another missing children "case" that I'm reviewing. I will not make any claims about my believes of his involvement on the Madeleine case as it's outside of the scope of my personal investigation. I will post my believes about what Hans Christian Wolters have on him.

I will not post a link to all media articles where what I'm about to state is mentioned as one can simply browse this thread to find them out.

Hans Christian Wolters claims that he have evidences that Madeleine is dead and that CB is the one who killed. He came to this conclusion in 2017.

- He doesn't know if the Portuguese police and/or the English police have the same evidences that he have on CB.

- He does know that the evidence that he have might not be enough to accuse CB of the crime so he is asking for public assistance.

- He apparently is not questioning CB and he is waiting to gather more clues so what is this all about ? Quite simple !!!

Here : - Witness who helped re-launch Madeleine McCann investigation says Christian Brueckner is guilty | Daily Mail Online

On 2017 Helge Busching was himself having issues with justice and decide to reveal stuff about CB to the police. This allowed German police to "investigate" CB further to (at least attempt) charge him with other crimes.

Whatever Hans Christian Wolters have is NOT a physical item like Madeleine cloths found on CB properties and it's NOT something like exclusive movies/photos related to Madeleine found on searches made on the CB context. If that were to be the case other police forces couldn't have that evidence (that HCW claim that other polices can also have) and even if it were something downloaded from the internet like abuse material from pedophile sites (and no - I don't believe at all on the existence of Madeleine content on that sort of place) then HCW could talk about that without no issues as the material found would "not change" no matter what CB would tell, meaning that whatever Hans Christian Wolters it must have some sort of "declaration" or testimonial that are word of some people only and not unalterable evidences. That is why he will not tell. Let's assume that Helge Busching told the police exactly how CB killed Madeleine. This is the sort of "evidence" that Hans Christian Wolters might have - or so I believe.

Now Hans Christian Wolters would LOVE to search all places related to CB not only because of MADELEINE but also because of ALL OTHER CASES that CB might be involved in. It might not even be about MADELEINE at all and it might not even be related to missing children.

When news about CB did appear on the media relating him to SEVERAL missing children cases I could "exclude" him immediately from several of those cases without even having to think allot but making this link DO HELP Hans Christian Wolters and why ? Simple !

If you "paint" the image of CB as a monster that abduct and kill children and if you can link him to the most (in)famous missing children case ever - MADELEINE - then people will co-operate ! Why ? Hans Christian Wolters needs to search all that he can about CB even on the context of other crimes but he can't as he doesn't know (outside of German) where CB did live and stay, etc ... But if he can get people to ALLOW HIM TO SEARCH then he might get evidences if not to charge on the Madeleine case it can be used to link and charge on other cases. Publicity of the Madeleine case do allow Hans Christian Wolters to reach a bigger audience and OUTSIDE Germany. If Portuguese people or even people from other countries start to ask German police (on this case Hans Christian Wolters) to search CB old properties and vehicles because they don't want to be living in a place where a body of a child might be buried then Hans Christian Wolters can search the place (if the current owners do ask for it) and eventually gather stuff on CB that might link him with other crimes, cracking those crimes up.

Whatever Hans Christian Wolters have is not related to material gather during 2016 search as well. Hans Christian Wolters "declared" that only in 2017 they did conclude that Madeleine did die and that CB was the killer. It have to be related to Busching accusations. I'm NOT AWARE of any re-examination on "Inga files" for Madeleine DNA comparison or in other words items fond on CB places like child clothing / swimsuits - I'm not aware if they were re-tested to see if there were some DNA traces of Madeleine but even if they were it would be an exclusive evidence that other police forces wouldn't have for sure and it wouldn't matter to publish that as CB wouldn't be able to alter his statement of facts.

For me HCW method serves several objectives and apart from all that was stated it will "agitate waters" as well. A stagnated case will not bring anything new. When those statements of HCW were made the interest on the Madeleine case did rise up again. Same for other missing children cases. It's better to have people talking and investigating and remembering over this matter rather than having no clues and no place to go further. Agitating waters it's better. Stagnated waters is bad. People will go no-where.

Madeleine McCann's parents believe probe into German suspect is 'beyond bizarre'

Speaking to the Sunday Mirror in June, Mr. Wolters, who admits he does not have enough evidence to charge Brueckner, said: “We don’t try to speak because it’s not the right time. We don’t believe he will say he did it.

“We think we have 90 per cent evidence. If he knows what this is, he can try to change his story.”

Again if Wolters were to have something "palpable" and "material" like photos/videos/solid evidence what would matter if CB would "try to change his story" ? He is arrested, he will go no-where and couldn't change a picture or a video or the fact that DNA were found here or there or couldn't change the fact of having stuff that could incriminate him. Now what HE CAN CHANGE is words and stories and declarations so what Wolters is "hiding" it have to be something stated by witness.

At any rate it doesn't matter because as long as people will co-operate Wolters might be able to catch "other crimes" committed by CB. If he doesn't find anything he can just say that he doesn't have enough to charge and that's it. The strategy looks like that just harvest for clues in ALL CRIMES that CB might be related to at the same time with the help of people.

Welcome and thank you for your contribution, please can you clarify what you mean or provide a link to HB's .............

"On 2017 Helge Busching was himself having issues with justice and decide to reveal stuff about CB to the police. This allowed German police to "investigate" CB further to (at least attempt) charge him with other crimes."

Nothing has been reported about HB having 'issues with justice' in 2017 to my knowledge.
I presume that and everything else written is just your opinion?

 

[tedtink]

... and now I realise ... evening meals were included in price, choice of 2 restaurants, one was fully booked, so they ate at the other ... Millenium.

Half board at the complex? Breakfast and evening meals?

 

[redplanet]

Mother said child wouldn’t be able to do that .
Kind of makes you wonder then why she said the door had been left unlocked so child could come to find them if she woke up a second time .

There are photos showing that a young child can slide this design of door. They are labelled 558.

 

[vermisstekindersuche]

(...) please can you clarify what you mean or provide a link to HB's .............

"On 2017 Helge Busching was himself having issues with justice and decide to reveal stuff about CB to the police. This allowed German police to "investigate" CB further to (at least attempt) charge him with other crimes."

Nothing has been reported about HB having 'issues with justice' in 2017 to my knowledge. (...)

For example :

Witness who helped re-launch Madeleine McCann investigation says Christian Brueckner is guilty | Daily Mail Online

Busching gave the statement in 2017 after being arrested while trying to smuggle migrants from Greece to Italy, it is claimed. He had a previous conviction for a 2011 assault on a beggar in Italy.

While under investigation, Busching was put in touch with Operation Grange - the Met Police team investigating Madeleine's disappearance - where he gave them details about Brueckner.

According to a Greek police report, Busching's evidence was 'given voluntarily and without monetary or other consideration'.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12638463/witness-mccann-guilty-christian-b/

Busching and another friend Manfred Seyferth knew Christian B from when they all lived in Praia da Luz, the Portuguese resort where Madeleine was on holiday.

Busching’s own previous convictions include assaulting a female beggar in Brindisi, Italy, in 2011.

Six years later he was arrested after trying to smuggle migrants between Greece and Italy.

 

[redplanet]

Half board at the complex? Breakfast and evening meals?

Yes.

 

[redplanet]

I am upping this by @tedtink because IMO it may possibly fully and elegantly solve the problem of direction.

"Perhaps the T's were dining at the Millenium with oldest child and friends - Dr T left minutes earlier to pick up daughter from the night creche, walked back to apartment, realising he had no key, walked back towards the restaurant to meet his wife who may have got delayed for some reason".