Malaysia airlines plane may have crashed 239 people on board #24

[Hatfield]

Well probably Inmarsat is not a plane owner, so that is why they relied on previous data.
Otherwise there would have to be a joint co-operative effort between Malaysia Airlines & Inmarsat.
And they had problems even communicating who could release the raw data ...
Malaysia kept referring the reporters to Inmarsat & Inmarsat kept referring the reporters to Malaysia.



The whole plane electronics may have shut down when it ran out of gas ... this would cause the satellite communicator to crash since it lost it's data feed. However the satellite communicator may have been equipped with its own small battery backup on the chip board (say like a laptop computer).

For the first part....yes, meant that Immarstat should have requested the search organizers to send up a plane exactly like the MH370 and fly the proposed route so they could track it and try to match up their data. This is a relatively cheap thing to do considering all the money already spent by the other boats and planes searching. The cost of doing this is very minimal considering all the other money already spent.
They could still do this and I dont understand why they dont. They could pull the plug on the transponder at just the right time and should be able to match up their data if it is right.
It almost seems to me that they are afraid of what they will see and could be wrong so they dont do the obvious things that would confirm things.

For the 2nd part.....most battery backup systems kick in instantaneously and the unit would have never stopped to begin with if it had battery backup. So I still dont see a reboot happening unless maybe the engine sputtered enough to cause the electricity to have a short interrupt and then the engine was still running but sputtering along maybe.

 

[dotr]

Dumb question alert!
When fuel prices rise, and sometimes even when they don't, some resort to siphoning gas out of other cars to fill their own..
Has anything like that ever happened with planes? Is it even possible?

 

[Hatfield]

Dumb question alert!
When fuel prices rise, and sometimes even when they don't, some resort to siphoning gas out of other cars to fill their own..
Has anything like that ever happened with planes? Is it even possible?

It has happened before. Link below.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...cgzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4e4HAAAAIBAJ&pg=5742,3577467

We had discussions many weeks back about how much fuel this plane had in its tanks. Unless Malaysia kept good records of how many gallons of fuel was put into the plane before takeoff then nobody will ever really know how much fuel the plane had.

 

[Momoffourboys]

MH370 relatives accuse Malaysia of withholding data

Many relatives are frustrated over the lack of progress, and have little faith in the complex process used to form the theory that the plane veered off course for reasons unknown after losing contact, and then crashed into the southern Indian Ocean.

Michael Exner, a US-based satellite engineer and one of the most prominent independent experts to analyse the findings, said Malaysia had failed to provide crucial supporting details together with the Inmarsat logs.

“There is a little bit more new information that may help us. But there is just a very large body of metadata that is missing,” he told AFP.

“They are not being transparent,” he added. “It may not be possible to draw any conclusions. Why don’t they just release all? Why do they hide so much of it?”
Exner said it would take days to properly examine even the limited technical data that had been released.

Steve Wang, a spokesman for a support group of relatives of the flight’s 153 Chinese passengers, accused authorities of holding back data.
“We want a complete report releasing all the information on how the theory behind the plane’s position was reached, so that we can invite experts to give their independent opinion.”

“So much time has passed and nothing has been found, so we doubt that the calculated position of the plane is correct,” he said.

http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/ca...elatives-accuse-malaysia-of-withholding-data/

 

[Amee]

The four acoustic underwater ‘‘pings’’ picked up last month are no longer believed to have come from the flight data recorder or cockpit voice recorders, in a major setback in the ongoing search, says Michael Dean, the US Navy’s deputy director for salvage and diving.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/missing...ficial-says-20140529-zrrdo.html#ixzz333W3rSf4

 

[Amee]

It has been suggested in the flood of international commentary about the aircraft’s disappearance and the so far fruitless search for it that communications giant Inmarsat’s interpretation of its data could be wrong and might not demonstrate that flight MH370 necessarily came south.

The data and technique used by Inmarsat has been independently peer reviewed by a number of organisations outside of Inmarsat, in both the UK and USA,” Mr Houston said.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...-theory-spurned/story-e6frg95x-1226935428695#

 

[ilovepierre]

in the first link? the second was an empty fuselage w/ window panels to use to compare the "floating window" with...




like a life jacket? http://www.bluewaterperformancegear.com/assets/images/200_large.png

Yep, life jacket.

 

[ilovepierre]

The four acoustic underwater ‘‘pings’’ picked up last month are no longer believed to have come from the flight data recorder or cockpit voice recorders, in a major setback in the ongoing search, says Michael Dean, the US Navy’s deputy director for salvage and diving.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/missing...ficial-says-20140529-zrrdo.html#ixzz333W3rSf4

:sigh:
So, now what?

 

[ilovepierre]

BBM

Sadly, history tells us that planes do simply disappear.

On December 5, 1945, five U.S. Navy Avenger torpedo-bombers – Flight 19 – took of from Ft. Lauderdale Naval Air Station on an over water navigation training flight. All five planes and the 14 men on them disappeared over the Bermuda Triangle.
An hour later, a Mariner aircraft took off on a search and rescue mission for Flight 19 with a 13 man crew. It too disappeared.
............but no trace of Flight 19 or the Mariner were ever found

Snipped for space.
Flight 19 never actually disappeared over the Bermuda Triangle.
The planes actually made it back to Florida, but somehow ended up in a swamp area.
But nonetheless, the planes have never been found.

 

[Amee]

The US Navy has moved to dismiss comments from one of its officials who said pings thought to have come from MH370's black box were probably emitted by the search ship itself.

"Mike Dean's comments today were speculative and premature, as we continue to work with our partners to more thoroughly understand the data acquired by the towed pinger locator.

"As such, we would defer to the Australians, as the lead in the search effort, to make additional information known at the appropriate time."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-...sses-experts-comments-on-search-pings/5485970

 

[Amee]

A NEW 3D map of the Indian Ocean floor could help with the search for missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370.

Underwater mapping experts Walter Smith and Karen Marks of the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) Laboratory for Satellite Altimetry have created an underwater map of the Indian Ocean were MH370 is thought to have vanished.


http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...-in-indian-ocean/story-fnizu68q-1226935259145

 

[SeriouslySearching]

There comes a time when, if all the elaborate data in the world hasn't solved anything, we should probably go back to common sense. I have felt all along they have been searching in the wrong direction entirely. And maybe they have.

 

[Amee]

Breaking news
ATSB "discounts" Indian Ocean search area where pings heard as final resting place for MH370


The Joint Agency Coordination Centre searching for missing flight MH370 says it has completed its search in the Indian Ocean where pings were detected and have discounted the zone as the final resting place of the Malaysia Airlines plane.
more to come

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-29/mh370-search-zone-not-resting-place-of-plane/5487052

 

[Amee]

Media Release
29 May 2014—pm

Joint Agency Coordination Centre

Yesterday afternoon, Bluefin-21 completed its last mission searching the remaining areas in the vicinity of the acoustic signals detected in early April by the Towed Pinger Locator deployed from ADV Ocean Shield, within its depth operating limits.

The data collected on yesterday's mission has been analysed. As a result, the Joint Agency Coordination Centre can advise that no signs of aircraft debris have been found by the Autonomous Underwater Vehicle since it joined the search effort.

Since Bluefin-21 has been involved in the search, it has scoured over 850 square kilometres of the ocean floor looking for signs of the missing aircraft.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) has advised that the search in the vicinity of the acoustic detections can now be considered complete and in its professional judgement, the area can now be discounted as the final resting place of MH370.

Ocean Shield departed the search area last night and is expected to arrive at Fleet Base West on Saturday.

As advised by the Australian Deputy Prime Minister on 5 May 2014, the search for MH370 continues and now involves three major stages:

reviewing all existing information and analysis to define a search zone of up to 60,000 square kilometres along the arc in the southern Indian Ocean;
conducting a bathymetric survey to map the sea floor in the defined search area; and
acquiring the specialist services required for a comprehensive search of the sea floor in that area.

The expert satellite working group continues to review and refine complex analyses of radar and satellite data and aircraft performance data to determine where the aircraft most likely entered the water. The findings of the review will be made public in due course.

The Chinese survey ship Zhu Kezhen has already begun conducting the bathymetric survey—or mapping of the ocean floor—of the areas provided by the ATSB. Its operations are being supported by the Chinese ship Haixun 01 and Malaysian vessel Bunga Mas 6 which are assisting with transporting the survey data to Fremantle weekly for further processing by Geoscience Australia. A contracted survey vessel will join the Zhu Kezhen in June.

The bathymetric survey is expected to take about three months. Knowing the seafloor terrain is crucial to enabling the subsequent underwater search.

The underwater search will aim to locate the aircraft and any evidence (such as aircraft debris and flight recorders) to assist with the Malaysian investigation of the disappearance of MH370.

It is anticipated that this component of the search will begin in August and take up to 12 months.

The ATSB will shortly release a formal request for tender to source the capability to undertake the underwater search. A single prime contractor will be chosen to bring together and manage the expertise, equipment and vessels to carry out the search.

The request for tender will be done via AusTender, the Australian Government Tender System: www.tenders.gov.au

http://www.jacc.gov.au/media/releases/2014/may/mr048.aspx

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Well, that was an expensive mistake wasn't it .. so are we back at square one?

 

[SeriouslySearching]

No. We know where it is not.

 

[Mr. Noatak]

This presumes that the plane is flying along, runs out of gas & basically drops vertically, smacking the water & breaks up.

What I have read is that when the plane ran out of gas it may have continued horizontally with a glided descent, thus entering the water as a sealed whole body with no escape for debris.

I don't have enough technological knowledge to know which theory is the most likely one.

But the last 2 signals MH370 had with the satellite were 8 minutes apart & may hold clues.

At 8:11am the plane responds normally to the scheduled hourly satellite handshake, so presumbly all is well.
Some questions that an aviation specialist might consider are ...

At that point, how many minutes would it take for the plane to fall vertially, crash & break up ?

At 8:19am the plane initiated an unplanned communication with the satellite. Supposedly when the plane ran out of gas, all the electrical components would have failed. And then automatically, the computer that communicates with the satellite would have tried to reboot, which is why the 8:19am linkup was started. Presumbly the reboot was stopped midway because the plane hit or entered the water.

How many minutes would it take for this computer to reboot ?
Would the computer have stopped working if it was only immersed in water ?
Or would the computer need to have made a hard impact to cease functioning ?

My opinions only, no facts here:

Heavens! A plane going a couple hundred miles an hour does not have to hit the water at a high angle in order to break up. For example, Ethiopian Airlines Flight 961.

MH 370 should not be a "Miracle on the Hudson-type" landing for the reason that there are waves in the ocean. Big ones. These represent the equivalent of a runway with 5 to 10 foot blocks of concrete sprinkled everywhere. But there is something even more telling- if by some absolute miracle MH 370 hit such a bumpy surface and survived completely intact, then all four ELT's on board would have had time to activate and transmitted the location of the plane to satellites.

Unless MH 370 is hidden in a hangar somewhere, it hit the ocean and broke up fast, or broke up in the air and hit the ocean fast! After all this time, I find the complete lack of attributable debris to be quite strange.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch:

In my dreams I'd like to think that some Navy guy looked at their own spec sheet (I talked about this issue some time ago) for the TPL-25 pinger locator and realized that it has a detection limit of one nautical mile. You know- an "uh-oh" moment. Of course, no sooner do we have an official statement that the pings are not from black boxes, we have a qualified semi-retraction: "we want to more thoroughly understand the data". Now I feel like we may be in limbo-land, as the bad pinger data tries to make itself better.

Well, I am over to some technical sites to see if the Inmarsat data is holding up.

 

[Amee]

Along with surface searches, examination of satellite data and the undersea sonar searches, authorities have asked the United Nations' Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty Organisation (CTBTO) to check its system of hydrophones, designed to pick up possible nuclear tests, for any clues as to where the aircraft may have crashed.

"Both the CTBTO and institutions from our 183 Member States ... have analyzed all relevant International Monitoring System data - infrasound, seismic and hydroacoustic - without finding any signal that could point to the fate of MH370," a spokesman from CTBOT said in an emailed response.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/2...missing-malaysia-plane-not-where-pings-heard/

 

[Elley Mae]

MH370: Australia rules out main search zone

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-the-indian-ocean-search-zone-authorities-say

The missing Malaysia Airlines plane is not in the Indian Ocean search zone where underwater “pings” were detected, the Australian search authorities have announced, after a US navy officer cast doubt on whether the signals were from a plane's black box flight recorder.

 

[marlywings]

May 29, 2014 7:13PM

Transport Minister Warren Truss told parliament today the hunt for the missing Malaysia Airlines plane will continue in the Indian Ocean even though it was not found in the recent search zone. He said search is about to move into a new phase and Australia was committed to doing everything it can to find the plane.

“We are still very confident that the resting place of the aircraft is in the Southern Ocean,” he said.

The next search begins in August and is expected to take about 12 months.

“Unfortunately this is a painstaking effort in a very large ocean.” The next area could be 800 kilometers long and 70km wide, he said.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...g-mh370-jetliner/story-fniztvng-1226935425606