Malaysia airlines plane may have crashed 239 people on board #24

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From your link Bette...
Inmarsat says nothing important has been left out, but that the raw data would not have been understandable on its own. The goal of publication is transparency, not verification.
Click to expand...

For one, verification is important by other scientists. The public is not really qualified to make any conclusions given the complexity of it all (which the article points out). Other autonomous scientists in the area need to examine all the data and procedures.

For two, giving people a pdf printout of supposed 'data' is not proof that is even the actual data, so the whole 'transparency' line is fairly bogus. I'm not saying it isn't the right data, just that no one would know... it's basically a 'trust us' thing. And, on top of it, the data doesn't show much.

Given how much moola has gone into this search by many countries, it should make us all angry... it does me.
 
Wow, many lines of text for only 20 or so relevant lines.

I must be overlooking something.

Wouldn't we only be interested in the doppler shift times, BTO/BFO and R channel transmits and receives?
 
time said:
For one, verification is important by other scientists. The public is not really qualified to make any conclusions given the complexity of it all (which the article points out). Other autonomous scientists in the area need to examine all the data and procedures.

For two, giving people a pdf printout of supposed 'data' is not proof that is even the actual data, so the whole 'transparency' line is fairly bogus. I'm not saying it isn't the right data, just that no one would know... it's basically a 'trust us' thing. And, on top of it, the data doesn't show much.

Given how much moola has gone into this search by many countries, it should make us all angry... it does me.
Click to expand...

There has been some focus on Inmarsat in this thread. From the posted links, it seems to me that Inmarsat HAS fully met it's legal obligations & turned over ALL the raw data to Malaysia*.

Furthermore, in an interview with a CNN reporter, Inmarsat's rep said he is fully comfortable with his methodology being publicly released for corroboration by other scientists.

Since all that is good, my analysis is that the censorship of data released publicly has been done AFTER Inmarsat turned over all the raw data ... so therefore by Malaysia*.

Since Malaysia* has previously admitted they didn't have the know how to investigate the black box, it would seem safe to assume that they don't have enough satellite knowledge either. Even Inmarsat has admitted that they have used never before tried methods regarding MH370. That means Malaysia* is getting advice from somewhere that we don't really know.

I think there are also some cultural differences at play here. Western society is used to having its citizens or the free press questioning their leaders & their policies.

From what I've seen of Malaysia's actions, they seem to be more orientated to expecting their citizens to respect their authority without questioning them.

I think that is why Malaysia is having some problems with this incident & all the questions that western news agencies are posing.

* Note: One thing that is not really clear to me is WHO is actually censoring the raw data release ??? ... it could be ...

- Malaysia Airlines
- the Malaysian government (meaning the party in power)
- the Malaysian Transportation Department
- the International advisory board investigating the plane's disappearance.

I think it would be particularly negative to find out if it was the last option ... because I would imagine that an international committee would include the USA who I would hope is trying to bring a successful solution to the plane mystery.

However I have read the following quote ...

"We've shared the information that we had & it's for the investigation to decide what & when it puts out," Inmarsat Senior Vice President Chris McLaughlin said earlier this month.
Click to expand...

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/27/world/asia/malaysia-missing-plane/index.html
 
The raw data released today covers transmissions from the aircraft, a series of so-called electronic handshakes, but does not include more sensitive information on how Inmarsat’s ground station in Perth, Australia, receives and records satellite transmissions.

This ensures that intelligence agencies from countries such as North Korea are unable to track flights elsewhere based on the raw data. This is also because various aircraft use different types of satellite transmission terminals on board, the NYT report added.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/...0-crashed-in-indian-ocean-says-new-york-times
 
ilovepierre said:
My head is spinning...
Anyone able to decipher this thing?!
Click to expand...

I'm still deciphering the UTC times :lol: , but to me the information "proves" MH370 has taken the Southern arc.
Still not sold.
 
"So why is Dickinson so sure he is right? Because the model they created showing arcs and Doppler readings was rigorously tested, initially on other aircraft on the satellite at the same time, and then against previous flights by the same aircraft. With minor disagreements both the position and the Doppler reading of those aircraft was predicted accurately."

Why are they comparing against previous flights?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/27/world/asia/mh370-is-inmarsat-right-quest-analysis/
 
Ok.. been thinking.

Let's assume for a moment MH370 was hijacked and it failed hence dove into the S. Indian ocean.
Perhaps the gratification for the highjackers is the media craze attention and figure pointing at the Malaysian government. ?

Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk
 
My opinions only, no facts here:

I could crudely explain the "burst timing offset" with analogies to the sounds made by a train whistle as it passes by and the equivalence principles of relativity (thought experiments of Albert Einstein), but instead this is a perfect time for a Joan River's "can we talk" comedy moment. We are currently talking about 0's and X's on a computer disk, and nothing more. They could be innocent, they could be spoofed, they could be interpreted correctly, they could be interpreted incorrectly.

If you were in juror in a murder trial, would you rather see 0's and X's on a computer disk, OR a gun proven to be owned by the suspect with their preserved fingerprint on the trigger? Would you rather listen to a random ex-con claim the suspect committed the crime, or see a knife owned by the suspect that is coated with the victim's blood? Would you rather see a colorful DNA chart (basically a piece of paper) or a piece of jewelry owned by the victim that was found in the suspect's pocket?

It is not all that different with the MH 370 case. The official line is that the plane flew till it was out-of-fuel and crashed into the Indian Ocean. This should have been an ugly crash- engines out-of-fuel and traveling at least a couple of hundred miles an hour upon impact with no power control. Debris should BE EVERYWHERE.

By comparison, the crash of AF-447 in the Atlantic Ocean in 2009 was a relatively-simple engines-powered upright pancake impact. Yet, 50 bodies were recovered from the surface of the ocean. The tail of the plane was recovered. Over 600 pieces of debris were recovered.

Let us examine the crash of Alaska Airlines Flight 261. This was an ugly crash (probably upside down). I believe that only four bodies were recovered at the ocean surface, but 12 "large boxes" of debris were recovered in a few days.

Think about an "ugly" crash. The seat cushions (hundreds) float indefinitely. Every plastic component of the plane that is less-dense than seawater floats indefinitely. And what about the endless random items of humanity (babies rattles, stuffed toys, clothing, empty water bottles, etc.)?

The oceans of the world are not empty wildernesses. There is constant traffic these days from commercial ships, fishermen, recreational, and military activities. Where are the hundreds of pieces of debris? Where is a single piece of debris? Why has nobody located a single piece of debris from MH 370?
 
My opinions only, no facts here:

In a way, the Inmarsat data release is perfect. It will keep us talking about the 0's an X's on a computer disk for some time to come, and NOT about physical smoking guns (passenger bodies or MH 370 hull, cabin, or cargo debris). Everything else becomes an illusion, the ramblings of deranged conspiracy theorists.

Anyway, I would like to quote one of my favorite passages of all times, from my 1814 copy of Culpepper's Complete Herbal (this is from ancient memory so I might have a word or two wrong): POPPIES: "The herb is Lunar, and of the juice of it is made opium; only for lucre of money they cheat you, and tell you it is a kind of tear, or some such like thing, that drops from Poppies when they weep, and that is somewhere beyond the seas, I know not where beyond the Moon".

Don't blindly accept the "Hopium" and the "scientific tears". Keep an open mind until proven otherwise, or at least until you see a smoking gun with fingerprints or blood on it!

People or airplanes do not simply disappear; only the truth disappears.

Sleuth On!
 
Mr. Noatak said:
My opinions only, no facts here:

In a way, the Inmarsat data release is perfect. It will keep us talking about the 0's an X's on a computer disk for some time to come, and NOT about physical smoking guns (passenger bodies or MH 370 hull, cabin, or cargo debris). Everything else becomes an illusion, the ramblings of deranged conspiracy theorists.

Anyway, I would like to quote one of my favorite passages of all times, from my 1814 copy of Culpepper's Complete Herbal (this is from ancient memory so I might have a word or two wrong): POPPIES: "The herb is Lunar, and of the juice of it is made opium; only for lucre of money they cheat you, and tell you it is a kind of tear, or some such like thing, that drops from Poppies when they weep, and that is somewhere beyond the seas, I know not where beyond the Moon".

Don't blindly accept the "Hopium" and the "scientific tears". Keep an open mind until proven otherwise, or at least until you see a smoking gun with fingerprints or blood on it!

People or airplanes do not simply disappear; only the truth disappears.

Sleuth On!
Click to expand...

BBM

Sadly, history tells us that planes do simply disappear.

The 727 that Vanished

http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/the-727-that-vanished-2371187/?no-ist

47 years ago an airliner vanished over the Pacific. It just evaporated. To this day, we don't know what happened, but speculation is rife

http://www.examiner.com/article/47-...-mystery-shootdown-sabotage-or-something-else

On December 5, 1945, five U.S. Navy Avenger torpedo-bombers – Flight 19 – took of from Ft. Lauderdale Naval Air Station on an over water navigation training flight. All five planes and the 14 men on them disappeared over the Bermuda Triangle.
An hour later, a Mariner aircraft took off on a search and rescue mission for Flight 19 with a 13 man crew. It too disappeared.
............but no trace of Flight 19 or the Mariner were ever found

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq15-1.htm

1979 Boeing 707-323C disappearance

Neither the aircraft nor the six crew members have been found

Notably, the cargo included 153 paintings by Manabu Mabe, returning from a Tokyo exhibition, valued at US$1.24 million. Neither the wreck nor the paintings were ever found.[6]

The cause of the incident was concluded as cabin depressurization, which killed the crew

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Boeing_707-323C_disappearance

1951 Canadian Pacific Air Lines Douglas DC-4 disappearance

Neither the aircraft nor the 31 passengers and six crew have been found

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_Canadian_Pacific_Air_Lines_Douglas_DC-4_disappearance

In 1964, a DC-4 transport plane carrying 9 passengers disappeared on its way to Los Angeles from Wake Island in the mid-Pacific

But stories at the time said the search ended without the plane or its passengers being found.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ery-in-1964-20140315-story.html#axzz2wGwu2Shy
 
And another. I've bolded a few points.

After reading a locally published newspaper story written by MSRA board member Craig Rich, Clive Cussler contacted MSRA to suggest that his group, the National Underwater and Marine Agency (NUMA) and MSRA team up to locate the remains of Flight 2501. Their goal is to solve the mystery and determine the cause of this 55-year old loss.

The team knew that locating the scattered remains of an airplane, probably in small pieces in deep water, far from shore, would be a difficult task. It could take years of research. While most airplane disasters leave major wreckage to assist officials in determining the cause of the crash, Flight 2501 left only the smallest of clues. Modern day black boxes that record every word spoken from the flight deck along with detailed instrument readings did not exist in 1950. Newspaper reports often were exaggerated, and eyewitnesses were not trustworthy.

If there is major wreckage on the lake bottom, it is likely to be the four massive Pratt & Whitney R2000 engines. These 14-cylinder, air-cooled behemoths were 59.66 inches long, 49.1 inches in diameter and weighed nearly 1,600 pounds each.

58 people lost their lives that night in 1950. Their tragic and untimely deaths affected countless others individuals — family, friends, coworkers, neighbors and the people of South Haven, Michigan. Ultimately, this disaster is about the people who were lost, and the MSRA/NUMA joint venture search project is about paying our respects to them and solving a mystery.

http://michiganshipwrecks.org/shipw...-and-found/northwest-airlines-flight-2501-dc4
 
ilovepierre said:
I'm still deciphering what BTO, etc all means :floorlaugh:
And the UTC times....oy vey!
Click to expand...

I was one of those who hoped they would release the raw data. However I didn't want it for my use, as I figured it would be beyond my technical knowledge. But I wanted it released so other scientists like EXNER could work through it to see if they agreed with the results or came up with some other theory to hopefully locate the missing plane.
 
Mr. Noatak said:
It is not all that different with the MH 370 case. The official line is that the plane flew till it was out-of-fuel and crashed into the Indian Ocean. This should have been an ugly crash- engines out-of-fuel and traveling at least a couple of hundred miles an hour upon impact with no power control. Debris should BE EVERYWHERE.
Click to expand...

This presumes that the plane is flying along, runs out of gas & basically drops vertically, smacking the water & breaks up.

What I have read is that when the plane ran out of gas it may have continued horizontally with a glided descent, thus entering the water as a sealed whole body with no escape for debris.

I don't have enough technological knowledge to know which theory is the most likely one.

But the last 2 signals MH370 had with the satellite were 8 minutes apart & may hold clues.

At 8:11am the plane responds normally to the scheduled hourly satellite handshake, so presumbly all is well.
Some questions that an aviation specialist might consider are ...

At that point, how many minutes would it take for the plane to fall vertially, crash & break up ?

At 8:19am the plane initiated an unplanned communication with the satellite. Supposedly when the plane ran out of gas, all the electrical components would have failed. And then automatically, the computer that communicates with the satellite would have tried to reboot, which is why the 8:19am linkup was started. Presumbly the reboot was stopped midway because the plane hit or entered the water.

How many minutes would it take for this computer to reboot ?
Would the computer have stopped working if it was only immersed in water ?
Or would the computer need to have made a hard impact to cease functioning ?
 
2rose said:
This presumes that the plane is flying along, runs out of gas & basically drops vertically, smacking the water & breaks up.

What I have read is that when the plane ran out of gas it may have continued horizontally with a glided descent, thus entering the water as a sealed whole body with no escape for debris.

I don't have enough technological knowledge to know which theory is the most likely one.

But the last 2 signals MH370 had with the satellite were 8 minutes apart & may hold clues.

At 8:11am the plane responds normally to the scheduled hourly satellite handshake, so presumbly all is well.
Some questions that an aviation specialist might consider are ...

At that point, how many minutes would it take for the plane to fall vertially, crash & break up ?

At 8:19am the plane initiated an unplanned communication with the satellite. Supposedly when the plane ran out of gas, all the electrical components would have failed. And then automatically, the computer that communicates with the satellite would have tried to reboot, which is why the 8:19am linkup was started. Presumbly the reboot was stopped midway because the plane hit or entered the water.

How many minutes would it take for this computer to reboot ?
Would the computer have stopped working if it was only immersed in water ?
Or would the computer need to have made a hard impact to cease functioning ?
Click to expand...


Good points.

Some thoughts:

Their whole premise is on those hourly pings belonging to MH370. I hope they looked at all airplanes in the area both North, South, East, + West to be certain that MH370 was the only plane that could possibly be doing those handshakes. And I still cannot understand why they just dont send up their own test plane to fly the exact proposed route and watch the radar data. If same equipment then they should be able to replicate the data almost perfectly.

The part you indicated about the reboot. What I dont understand is if the plane ran out of fuel and electronics then failed then how can anything more happen like a reboot. Wouldnt there be no electricity to even do a reboot.
 
Hatfield said:
Their whole premise is on those hourly pings belonging to MH370. I hope they looked at all airplanes in the area both North, South, East, + West to be certain that MH370 was the only plane that could possibly be doing those handshakes. And I still cannot understand why they just dont send up their own test plane to fly the exact proposed route and watch the radar data. If same equipment then they should be able to replicate the data almost perfectly.
Click to expand...

Well probably Inmarsat is not a plane owner, so that is why they relied on previous data.
Otherwise there would have to be a joint co-operative effort between Malaysia Airlines & Inmarsat.
And they had problems even communicating who could release the raw data ...
Malaysia kept referring the reporters to Inmarsat & Inmarsat kept referring the reporters to Malaysia.

Hatfield said:
The part you indicated about the reboot. What I dont understand is if the plane ran out of fuel and electronics then failed then how can anything more happen like a reboot. Wouldnt there be no electricity to even do a reboot.
Click to expand...

The whole plane electronics may have shut down when it ran out of gas ... this would cause the satellite communicator to crash since it lost it's data feed. However the satellite communicator may have been equipped with its own small battery backup on the chip board (say like a laptop computer).
 
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