Found Deceased Malaysia - Nora Quoirin, 15, from UK, special needs, missing on vacation, Seremban, 4 Aug 2019 #2

[shinimeggie]

Hello!

First post and all, but I've been following this board and one thing keeps popping into my mind that I think I must say.

The information given out, the long statement regarding her disability, it's written in the same order as one would answer in the PIP (Personal Independence Payment) form in order to seek assistance with a disability, whether a child or adult.

That wold explain two things -

1. The unrelated information, such as describing how Nora would cope with finances and making phone calls.

2. How the information could differ from how Nora can present herself. When you get assessed for PIP, you must (and you'll be told this a million times, particular by people such as carers and social workers, it's also what SWers are taught in training) fill in the form thinking about how your disabilities are at the absolute worse.

So, it's feasible that the statement is mostly quickly grabbed from a PIP form with a little personal statement at the end.

I think Nora's abilities fluctuate, and the information is about how her walking (as an example) is at her absolute worse, so she may not always be as bad as the statement indicates.

I'm not saying anyone is lying (she is disabled, but some days her abilities can be a bit better or a bit worse, fluctuating) it just keeps playing on my mind as someone who has filled in a PIP form half a dozen times, as an adult, and as someone who trained to be a social worker in the UK and therefore got the spiel about how to best present a disability for maximum help.

Here's a link to the official booklet about how to fill in a PIP form - you'll see the order of questions is very similar, if not in the same order, as the official statement from the family.

https://tinyurl.com/yxzatnmj

 

[Endurfin]

Nora Anne: traditional medicine practitioners offer help
Parti Pribumi Bersatu Malaysia's (Bersatu) Negeri Sembilan youth wing chief Muhammad Aziim Mustafa urged all parties not to speculate on the teenager's disappearance.
"Among social media postings are stories that she is believed to have been abducted and such. I hope such speculation will stop," he told Bernama here.
-- BERNAMA
12/08/2019

 

[MsBetsy]

I am not set on anything but still felt it odd. My husband is way better at public speaking than me, it if a family member was missing, that wound be the last of my concerns. Also - he was the one who noticed her missing first, so expecting him to glean about it is not unrealistic. JMHO.

I would imagine any parent in that situation would have a hard time controlling their emotions, especially right after waking up to find your child gone.

Didn't the staff at the resort tell him he would have to physically go to the police station to report a missing child? Don't they have an emergency number, like 911?

Were the police called by the resort staff right away?
How long after the call did they arrive? I thought I read that it took some time for them to get there. Imo

 

[Atoz]

This is something that really bothers me. As a parent of 3 myself 7, 14 and 15 I sleep very light. And being in a strange place I wouldn't sleep well. I understand they may have been exhausted but whether she left on her own or someone took her, I'm very surprised the other 4 in the home heard nothing.

It's not as if she was across a home separate from others, they were all right there in a small space, the entire thing is just really strange to me.

The only thing I would suggest is that the ambient noise in a place like that could be quite lively and changeable throughout the night and early morning as different insects and animals take their turn in making a racket.

 

[Eloise]

The information given out, the long statement regarding her disability, it's written in the same order as one would answer in the PIP (Personal Independence Payment) form in order to seek assistance with a disability, whether a child or adult.

That wold explain two things -

1. The unrelated information, such as describing how Nora would cope with finances and making phone calls.

2. How the information could differ from how Nora can present herself. When you get assessed for PIP, you must (and you'll be told this a million times, particular by people such as carers and social workers, it's also what SWers are taught in training) fill in the form thinking about how your disabilities are at the absolute worse.

So, it's feasible that the statement is mostly quickly grabbed from a PIP form with a little personal statement at the end.

This sounds about right!

We have a similar scheme in Australia and that's exactly what you have to do here also - you have to make your case in the worst case scenario.

In the day-to-day with a child with disabilities you focus on their strengths and capabilities, but when it comes to getting funding for therapy and assistance, you have to go negative.

 

[whatizzinit]

Her father looks extremely distressed. There was video the other day of him meeting with searchers publicly so he isn't hiding away.

Also he was apparently shouting when waiting for the police to show up.
So I think he is less able to hold his emotions in hence why the mother is speaking.

I too heard he was shouting and frantic, saying “this is where the crime took place”....outside the open window.

 

[whatizzinit]

There are lots of quotes on here from sources that on the day Nora went missing, the police apparently took 3 hours to turn up. When told by the reception staff or management (sorry I'm not sure who) that it would be quicker if the family went and got the police themselves, the father was apparently shouting "but the crime took place here".

(I'm too tired to scroll through all previous posts!)

Just posted the same. At 2-3 hours missing that is an interesting statement, not that it claims guilt.

 

[MsBetsy]

This sounds about right!

We have a similar scheme in Australia and that's exactly what you have to do here also - you have to make your case in the worst case scenario.

In the day-to-day with a child with disabilities you focus on their strengths and capabilities, but when it comes to getting funding for therapy and assistance, you have to go negative.

How would that play a role in this case? What is the significance? That her disabilities may not be as described?

 

[TTF14]

Hello!

First post and all, but I've been following this board and one thing keeps popping into my mind that I think I must say.

The information given out, the long statement regarding her disability, it's written in the same order as one would answer in the PIP (Personal Independence Payment) form in order to seek assistance with a disability, whether a child or adult.

That wold explain two things -

1. The unrelated information, such as describing how Nora would cope with finances and making phone calls.

2. How the information could differ from how Nora can present herself. When you get assessed for PIP, you must (and you'll be told this a million times, particular by people such as carers and social workers, it's also what SWers are taught in training) fill in the form thinking about how your disabilities are at the absolute worse.

So, it's feasible that the statement is mostly quickly grabbed from a PIP form with a little personal statement at the end.

I think Nora's abilities fluctuate, and the information is about how her walking (as an example) is at her absolute worse, so she may not always be as bad as the statement indicates.

I'm not saying anyone is lying (she is disabled, but some days her abilities can be a bit better or a bit worse, fluctuating) it just keeps playing on my mind as someone who has filled in a PIP form half a dozen times, as an adult, and as someone who trained to be a social worker in the UK and therefore got the spiel about how to best present a disability for maximum help.

Here's a link to the official booklet about how to fill in a PIP form - you'll see the order of questions is very similar, if not in the same order, as the official statement from the family.

https://tinyurl.com/yxzatnmj

Welcome!! And thank you for this new insight .

 

[Enygma]

How would that play a role in this case? What is the significance?

Imo the implication is that the description of Nora's disabilities given in the family statement may be at her worst, rather than what she may be able to achieve on an average day or at her best. Therefore she may be able to move much more freely and independently than we may have thought. Imo

 

[TristanP]

I too heard he was shouting and frantic, saying “this is where the crime took place”....outside the open window.

If this is a correct account, it seems odd to me as well. I don’t think my first assumption would be a crime had occurred unless there were signs of a struggle.

However, it could well be that there’s an error in translation somewhere here, and perhaps he was trying to say she must have left through the window but the interpretation of the language came out with different words. For example, he’s saying “she went missing through the window, this window right here” and that somehow became “The crime occurred here at this window.”

I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt...look at how translation issues created problems in the investigation of Madeline McCann’s disappearance.

 

[Amonet]

How would that play a role in this case? What is the significance?

I would think the police would want to be aware as possible of the extent of what Nora can do, what she struggles with, and what she absolutely can't do. And somehow they have to translate that information into a 'best guess' of how Nora would behave in certain scenarios, such as being lost in the forest.

But I think the press release was done more to inform the media, as the police on the ground should have asked those questions the moment they got on the ground. So I think they tried to prepare something with a little information about the condition itself and then some examples of how it affects Nora as a person. The information also builds more of an image of Nora as an individual, so we get this image of a fifteen year old girl trying to learn how to ride a bike, needing a cuddle and a story at bedtime, etc. It can be helpful if the public can relate better to the missing person.

 

[neesaki]

So if the Dutch tourist is to be believed, the father was certain immediately it had to be a crime that had taken place:

'Then the man said very angryly [sic], "the crime took place here!"'

Are out quoting something? If so Could you please link to the quote? TIA

 

[Wowno17]

Just posted the same. At 2-3 hours missing that is an interesting statement, not that it claims guilt.

I truly don't believe the parents are involved and if I discovered my child missing from the house in the morning I'd be screaming crime and suggesting abduction just because your mind goes to the worst even if hoping for the best.

I'd want people looking immediately and it must have felt like an eternity to the parents. 3 hours!! You'd want to search yourself but then you'd probably get lost and it would just be agonizing waiting for authorities to turn up and not being able to do anything yourself until then.

I hope they get some answers soon because it's driving me crazy, I can't even comprehend how the parents must be feeling right now

 

[CocoChanel]

THIS THREAD IS TEMPORARILY CLOSED FOR CLEAN UP.
THERE ARE PAGES AND PAGES OF POSTS THAT HAVE BEEN REPORTED, AND I AM ONLY ONE PERSON.

NOT SURE HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE TO GET TO THEM ALL BUT I WILL DO MY BEST.

Faithfully,
CocoChanel
Moderator

 

[CocoChanel]

THIS THREAD IS NOW CLEANED UP AND OPEN.
PLEASE LET’S KEEP IT THAT WAY.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR EFFORTS TO POST RESPONSIBLY AND RESPECTFULLY.

Faithfully,
CocoChanel

 

[MsFacetious]

Thanks CC I have been drafting a post all day... I was finally caught up and the thread was closed!

The description of Nora sounds strikingly similar to my own daughter (with Down syndrome) that age. Because of this I’ve given tons of thought to this situation and caught up on both threads completely before posting.

I don’t think she’s being portrayed as less capable than she is. I do not see a disconnect, I don’t see contradictions. It all makes perfect sense to me. If they have that level of certainty about their daughter, who am I to question that?

If I was concerned about Nora getting downstairs safely at night, I’d put her downstairs. It’s not like the entire thing was upstairs. Everything that had to be accessed was downstairs.

The reporting has been less than reliable in this case. So maybe Nora wasn’t upstairs. Or perhaps Nora always woke someone else if she woke up at night. Or perhaps Nora simply didn’t wake up during the night, my daughter does not.

A few years ago we were going to several national parks… in August. There was no way I was going to let my daughter miss that opportunity sitting in the truck! So I got her 2 cooling vests and we rotated them the whole trip. I also got her some support braces to help her walking longer distances.

Yes, it was a more expensive trip with more work to it… and yes those hikes were much slower than normal… but that is what you do to make sure your child enjoys life.

My daughter can multiply and divide, but not tell you my phone number. She hasn’t worn pajamas since she was 6. Doesn’t even own them anymore. She sleeps in jeans!

My daughter is outgoing and friendly but completely terrified of flying bugs and storm clouds. I could see her running outside to escape a dragonfly, but she’d wake the whole neighborhood screaming first. (Yes, I'm SURE of that.)

There is absolutely no advantage to screaming abduction if she is actually lost in the jungle! I also think that the cops probably did not understand her delays and didn’t convey those well.

It would be horrific as a parent to watch that search in the jungle if you truly believed she wasn’t out there. I mean it would already be horrific and helpless to begin with… but then to have them not looking for the abductor you believed had your child?!

I think that because the family is accustomed to her delays and challenges, they didn’t truly realize how limiting they were. Because to them it’s simply normal and it’s just what they do. Yet when they realize that she is out there without that support from them or the school, then it all hits them how vulnerable she really is.

There is just such a big difference between what our kids are capable of with a patient and attentive caregiver next to them… and what they are capable of completely on their own. That’s the difference that Nora’s parents are trying to get across. Her abilities ALONE out there.

The pictures you see are with support nearby. The accommodations were booked with support accompanying Nora. Of course she can go on walks, on hikes, climb stairs... she has assistance right there as she needs it. Doing it alone? Totally different.

When you have a child with special needs you learn to see the therapeutic value or lack thereof in everything. The pool, the stairs, the hiking, the relaxed atmosphere…. This sounds like the perfect place to go. To allow her to do those things but not be rushed through doing them. My nature loving kids would love it, if it wasn’t for the bugs. That’s a no go.

It all makes sense to me as a mother with a daughter with similar abilities. So I just wanted to give that perspective.

 

[MsFacetious]

As far as her possibly being targeted due to her disability, this is also something I have wondered about with other cases. In general children with disabilities are much more likely to be abused. I could see being less able to escape or ask for help as a motivating factor for an abductor.

I am inclined to think that the possible truck at 3am should be explored. I think it's very possible that an opportunistic predator may have acted quickly because of Nora's disability.

I'm glad a reward is being offered and even more are helping search. I do hope that any vehicles are also being looked into. Especially anyone who would have known a family with two young girls was coming and who was familiar with the layout of the lodging.

Maybe they were always hoping to do something like this but were awaiting the right victim. I'm concerned she could be another Elizabeth, Amanda, Jayme, Jaycee.... except with less ability to escape or seek help at all. It's horrifying to think she could be being held somewhere while they search the jungle.

Oh dear. I know they mean well but I'd be feeling very frustrated if I were her parents.

I'd probably be swearing to the genie that I'd convert if he returned my daughter. I'll do whatever I need to!

One might see the Shaman's words having the effect of giving potential perps and the country the opportunity to "save face".
Ie. Leave Nora in the forest where we can and will find her, it is not your fault that a spirit used you to steal what it wanted.
Just return her alive and you will be (spiritually?) rewarded.
Speculation, imo.

Absolutely... a great opportunity, I hope someone takes it.

Good point re light being left on so kids could find bathroom in pitch dark. Two things spring to mind. 1) Did Nora get disorientated in the pitch dark with no light left on at all and open the window instead of a door thinking it was the bathroom/her parents room? and 2) If a light was left on all those giant flying insects I've read about would flood into the place. Could be quite scarey

My daughter would pop a blood vessel screaming her fool head off if this happened to her. She already does when one dragonfly gets into the house. This would be like her version of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Holy crap.

 

[broadviewren]

Thanks CC I have been drafting a post all day... I was finally caught up and the thread was closed!

The description of Nora sounds strikingly similar to my own daughter (with Down syndrome) that age. Because of this I’ve given tons of thought to this situation and caught up on both threads completely before posting.

I don’t think she’s being portrayed as less capable than she is. I do not see a disconnect, I don’t see contradictions. It all makes perfect sense to me. If they have that level of certainty about their daughter, who am I to question that?

If I was concerned about Nora getting downstairs safely at night, I’d put her downstairs. It’s not like the entire thing was upstairs. Everything that had to be accessed was downstairs.

The reporting has been less than reliable in this case. So maybe Nora wasn’t upstairs. Or perhaps Nora always woke someone else if she woke up at night. Or perhaps Nora simply didn’t wake up during the night, my daughter does not.

A few years ago we were going to several national parks… in August. There was no way I was going to let my daughter miss that opportunity sitting in the truck! So I got her 2 cooling vests and we rotated them the whole trip. I also got her some support braces to help her walking longer distances.

Yes, it was a more expensive trip with more work to it… and yes those hikes were much slower than normal… but that is what you do to make sure your child enjoys life.

My daughter can multiply and divide, but not tell you my phone number. She hasn’t worn pajamas since she was 6. Doesn’t even own them anymore. She sleeps in jeans!

My daughter is outgoing and friendly but completely terrified of flying bugs and storm clouds. I could see her running outside to escape a dragonfly, but she’d wake the whole neighborhood screaming first. (Yes, I'm SURE of that.)

There is absolutely no advantage to screaming abduction if she is actually lost in the jungle! I also think that the cops probably did not understand her delays and didn’t convey those well.

It would be horrific as a parent to watch that search in the jungle if you truly believed she wasn’t out there. I mean it would already be horrific and helpless to begin with… but then to have them not looking for the abductor you believed had your child?!

I think that because the family is accustomed to her delays and challenges, they didn’t truly realize how limiting they were. Because to them it’s simply normal and it’s just what they do. Yet when they realize that she is out there without that support from them or the school, then it all hits them how vulnerable she really is.

There is just such a big difference between what our kids are capable of with a patient and attentive caregiver next to them… and what they are capable of completely on their own. That’s the difference that Nora’s parents are trying to get across. Her abilities ALONE out there.

The pictures you see are with support nearby. The accommodations were booked with support accompanying Nora. Of course she can go on walks, on hikes, climb stairs... she has assistance right there as she needs it. Doing it alone? Totally different.

When you have a child with special needs you learn to see the therapeutic value or lack thereof in everything. The pool, the stairs, the hiking, the relaxed atmosphere…. This sounds like the perfect place to go. To allow her to do those things but not be rushed through doing them. My nature loving kids would love it, if it wasn’t for the bugs. That’s a no go.

It all makes sense to me as a mother with a daughter with similar abilities. So I just wanted to give that perspective.

Thank you for this perspective -- I found it very enlightening.

 

[LemonMint]

It’s 1 pm in Malaysia already. The media is surprisingly quiet. Guess no major progress has taken place