Manorville Bodies: A Second Killer? Latest Remains found 02/17/2012

[fred&edna]

OK, so I DID read Wash DC. It just struck me that she was from Wash State - her parents probably live there - if anyone was going to report her missing, it would have been her family in Wash. I don't think she was reported missing and that proves my point - the SK did his research: working girls + family out of state. Once again, I say that the girls knew him from past dealings and trusted him. MOO

I agree w/the BBM part

I think her family is from upstate NY and if I'm not mistaken KW (and/or his family) has/had an address nearby. (just thought I'd throw that info in!)

 

[Peter Brendt]

[/I][/B]

BBM
Hi Peter,
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying - sorry to be so dense but maybe if you re-phrased it I would get it. I think I'm aware of the Port Authority connection...Tx!

Maybe it's just that I'm not a native speaker. Bottom line, in the same area, near to the bus terminal, we find three DIFFERENT kinds of sex business:

1.) Skid row type: Girls standing on the street waiting for Johns. That was, what Jessica Taylor allegedly did. Not so good lighting conditions, some transvestites also on the road. So, my guess is, the Asian male was there too at some point and due to bad light, the killer noticed too late, got pretty enraged and bashed his head in (none of the usual dismemberment).

2.) Hotels by the hour: Those are frequented by the street girls but also by girls like MBB, who had for example a room at 46th Street in one of those. Difference is, that, despite the physical vicinity, the internet business and the street business are different. The internet escorts meet men, who had contacted them before. Kind of an appointment business.
The street girls however go there with men, they just met on the street. In almost every case, they are the ones, starting communication. That makes street girls an interesting target group for social awkward SKs because they don't have to start the talking, don't need to charm or convince anybody. Entirely different from internet escorts in that aspect.

3.) The club scene: Many years ago, police tried to break down the sex business in the area, especially the clubs. However, the clubs became just "private" and thus, the police lost legal leverage. A lot of those clubs exist still, some new ones came to them, and they are still private. Means, you need an invitation. Which of course, isn't too hard to get. The girls there are regulars. And since it'S the main meeting point of the sado-maso-scene, professionals in this special area of expertise will have contacts to the clubs (the other bigger concentration of those clubs appears to be in Brooklyn). This is irrelevant for three of the GB4, but one of them, I think, it was Megan Waterman, offered domination services as well, so chances are, she had contacts to exactly that scene. Point is, these clubs establish a business layer in itself that doesn't mingle with internet escorts nor street walking girls in the garden variety sex business.

 

[Justiceforever]

Something I thought of that may or may not be relevent here. Most women (and I assume men) in this industry frequent sex shops and head shops to buy lingere, toys, lotion, props and in the case of head shops, drug paraphenalia. A place like this could link the three different types of providers that you mentioned PB, because all of them would have a reason to shop at these places. Maybe someone who works there that they felt like they knew?

http://m.yelp.com/biz/dvd-depot-new-york

This ones in the vicinity I think

 

[Peter Brendt]

Something I thought of that may or may not be relevent here. Most women (and I assume men) in this industry frequent sex shops and head shops to buy lingere, toys, lotion, props and in the case of head shops, drug paraphenalia. A place like this could link the three different types of providers that you mentioned PB, because all of them would have a reason to shop at these places. Maybe someone who works there that they felt like they knew?

http://m.yelp.com/biz/dvd-depot-new-york

This ones in the vicinity I think

The idea is good and may would lead to a connection, at least a secondary one. However, the detail, I'm chewing on is another one. Someone got an Asian transvestite and when he found out, he got really angry. Okay, skid row, bad light, Manorville maybe has bad eyes. Means, the same type of picking up area as JT worked. But I can't see any connection to the GB4. Even if they used sex shops, look at MBB for example. She came from home to meet men, she had made out with already. Means, she came "equipped", no need to go shopping first.
That and the different signature make me still think, we deal here with two SKs.

 

[Justiceforever]

The idea is good and may would lead to a connection, at least a secondary one. However, the detail, I'm chewing on is another one. Someone got an Asian transvestite and when he found out, he got really angry. Okay, skid row, bad light, Manorville maybe has bad eyes. Means, the same type of picking up area as JT worked. But I can't see any connection to the GB4. Even if they used sex shops, look at MBB for example. She came from home to meet men, she had made out with already. Means, she came "equipped", no need to go shopping first.
That and the different signature make me still think, we deal here with two SKs.

Oh yes, I totally agree with the two killer theory! I just hoped maybe my random thought might spark something in someones mind.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Oh yes, I totally agree with the two killer theory! I just hoped maybe my random thought might spark something in someones mind.

You know, it may just did! You thought about places, spaces rooms, they all would have to go to. Well, except for that rooms of course. But now seriously, parking space there is at a premium, right? Now, the girls can come by bus or cab or subway, whatever. But a serial killer can't. He need his car around. But he can't just cruising, he has to go out, scan the hunting ground first. Then either lure the victim to or into his car. So he needs a car nearby parked. Which means, someone was using all the time the same parking spaces.
Now, after LISK draw unwanted attention and got all the media hype, I predicted, Manorville maybe would try to find LISK. But how? Basically by assuming, what he would do in LISK's shoes, right? So, can be for a while they parked in the same lost and at least one knows the other one by sight. Now, how is that for a random thought?

 

[CriminalMinds]

You know, it may just did! You thought about places, spaces rooms, they all would have to go to. Well, except for that rooms of course. But now seriously, parking space there is at a premium, right? Now, the girls can come by bus or cab or subway, whatever. But a serial killer can't. He need his car around. But he can't just cruising, he has to go out, scan the hunting ground first. Then either lure the victim to or into his car. So he needs a car nearby parked. Which means, someone was using all the time the same parking spaces.
Now, after LISK draw unwanted attention and got all the media hype, I predicted, Manorville maybe would try to find LISK. But how? Basically by assuming, what he would do in LISK's shoes, right? So, can be for a while they parked in the same lost and at least one knows the other one by sight. Now, how is that for a random thought?

had the same thought about Manorville seeking out LISK

 

[Justiceforever]

You know, it may just did! You thought about places, spaces rooms, they all would have to go to. Well, except for that rooms of course. But now seriously, parking space there is at a premium, right? Now, the girls can come by bus or cab or subway, whatever. But a serial killer can't. He need his car around. But he can't just cruising, he has to go out, scan the hunting ground first. Then either lure the victim to or into his car. So he needs a car nearby parked. Which means, someone was using all the time the same parking spaces.
Now, after LISK draw unwanted attention and got all the media hype, I predicted, Manorville maybe would try to find LISK. But how? Basically by assuming, what he would do in LISK's shoes, right? So, can be for a while they parked in the same lost and at least one knows the other one by sight. Now, how is that for a random thought?

That's a pretty good random thought, I think.

 

[CriminalMinds]

had the same thought about Manorville seeking out LISK

then I wondered--would it be for mutual admiration, to teach and evolve, or to put in his site..?

 

[ps149]

You know, it may just did! You thought about places, spaces rooms, they all would have to go to. Well, except for that rooms of course. But now seriously, parking space there is at a premium, right? Now, the girls can come by bus or cab or subway, whatever. But a serial killer can't. He need his car around. But he can't just cruising, he has to go out, scan the hunting ground first. Then either lure the victim to or into his car. So he needs a car nearby parked. Which means, someone was using all the time the same parking spaces.
Now, after LISK draw unwanted attention and got all the media hype, I predicted, Manorville maybe would try to find LISK. But how? Basically by assuming, what he would do in LISK's shoes, right? So, can be for a while they parked in the same lost and at least one knows the other one by sight. Now, how is that for a random thought?

Peter, I like your logic yet have to ask-

Have you ever been in, around or through the Port Authority Bus Terminal?

I have (too many times to count).

From a logistics perspective, it is near impossible to snatch a person and transport them into a vehicle parked nearby. It is also near impossible to park and stalk a victim anywhere within the vicinity of the streets of the Port Authority.

The only two exceptions to these facts would be someone who is an employee of the MTA (Mass Transit Authority; like a bus driver) or an actual member of law enforcement.

 

[CriminalMinds]

From a logistics perspective, it is near impossible to snatch a person and transport them into a vehicle parked nearby. It is also near impossible to park and stalk a victim anywhere within the vicinity of the streets of the Port Authority.

that assumes MBB was snatched--I'd say she wasn't----more along the lines of lured/talked into going/accepted a ride--then subdued while in transit to where she "thought" they were going

nearly impossible to park=YES
nearly impossible to stalk=NO-quite the opposite--easy, IF unknown to the person, to blend

 

[Justiceforever]

Enter Hawkshaw ; ) This is right up your alley. If the killers a cop I mean.

 

[Justiceforever]

that assumes MBB was snatched--I'd say she wasn't----more along the lines of lured/talked into going/accepted a ride--then subdued while in transit to where she "thought" they were going

nearly impossible to park=YES
nearly impossible to stalk=NO-quite the opposite--easy, IF unknown to the person, to blend

I agree that he must've lured them (not snatched)
I also think he doesn't necessarily stalk them while he's in a car ( unless he's a cop) then he might.

 

[CriminalMinds]

I agree that he must've lured them (not snatched)
I also think he doesn't necessarily stalk them while he's in a car ( unless he's a cop) then he might.

or former cop(or someone) with a taser...?---no car stalking, per say-just a later means to an end--I feel like if PHYSICAL stalking has been used(not just online), it seems originally it was more area-driven(near port authority, the later hotels), then became girl-specific

 

[ps149]

I forgot to also mention CONSTRUCTION WORKER.

2007 was one heck of a year for construction around the Port Authority Bus Terminal. This is from the NY Times in November 2007 recapping all of the work in the area that had been recently going on;

There is certainly plenty going on at this once sleepy crossroad. Across Eighth Avenue from the terminal’s north wing, SJP Properties is building a 40-story office tower. Another tower is in the works on the north side of 42nd Street, just west of Eighth Avenue, where 1199 S.E.I.U. United Healthcare Workers East, the hospital workers’ union, is close to selecting a developer for its property, which comprises three adjoining parcels that extend to 43rd Street.

And farther north, Local 6 of the Hotel Employees and Restaurant Employees International Union is about to put its property — the entire blockfront between 44th and 45th Streets, on the west side of Eighth Avenue — on the market. Like 1199, that union wants to remain in place but take advantage of the real estate market to raise money.

The New York Times recently completed its new tower on Eighth Avenue, opposite the bus terminal’s south wing.

A number of residential buildings are being built on Eighth Avenue north of 42nd Street.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/30/nyregion/30tower.html?_r=0

 

[Peter Brendt]

then I wondered--would it be for mutual admiration, to teach and evolve, or to put in his site..?

Most torso-killers, the staging dismemberer kind, are a little bit of speechless attention *advertiser censored*. They don't play well with others drawing media attention and the usual pattern in such constellations is, the the loud and media hyped competition suddenly stops killing, gets never caught and never found. Not even ever heard about. In fact, there is a good chance, that Jack the Ripper and the second London Torso killer may be a kind of a good precedence case for such a constellation.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Peter, I like your logic yet have to ask-

Have you ever been in, around or through the Port Authority Bus Terminal?

I have (too many times to count).

From a logistics perspective, it is near impossible to snatch a person and transport them into a vehicle parked nearby. It is also near impossible to park and stalk a victim anywhere within the vicinity of the streets of the Port Authority.

The only two exceptions to these facts would be someone who is an employee of the MTA (Mass Transit Authority; like a bus driver) or an actual member of law enforcement.

I haven't been there. But I rely on what other locals tell me and on my knowledge, how often people said, it was impossible. That is like "what are the odds of two SKs in one area" or "the families had to know".
People said the same about the Washington State university campus. Still Bundy pulled it off a dozen times.
In Houston, at the NASA, thousands of people work. There is always coming and going. Watts got a victim on one of their parking lots.
Dahmer hunted in the most crowded gay meeting bars he could find.
The Hillside Stranglers got themselves two girls at a bus stop right after school, under the eyes of hundreds of potential witnesses ... of which none noticed anything unusual.
Bottom line: It's not impossible. In fact, it's quite easy, because people believe it is impossible. Every year thousands of kids around the globe are snatched in parks and from playgrounds, right under the eyes of their mothers. So I suggest, we think again about the term "impossible".

 

[Peter Brendt]

I agree that he must've lured them (not snatched)
I also think he doesn't necessarily stalk them while he's in a car ( unless he's a cop) then he might.

I'm not so sure. Could be a lure or ruse tactics. But then, I look at MBB and see, her last phone call was from a bus terminal really late at night. Enough dark corners, one has to pass.
And I think MW. If someone would have fetched her for a date, he would have had to stop almost in front of the hotel. He or at least his car would be on the security cams. So we know, MW moved away from the hotel entrance and there was back then that empty lot and the convenience store across. Nice place for an ambush. Especially for a stalker type knowing the habits of his victims. So, if I have only fore victims, I can safely connect, with two disappearing from areas enabling blitz-attacks and two, from whom I don't even know where exactly they disappeared, I am not comfortable with just dismissing the idea of "snatching".

 

[Justiceforever]

I'm not so sure. Could be a lure or ruse tactics. But then, I look at MBB and see, her last phone call was from a bus terminal really late at night. Enough dark corners, one has to pass.
And I think MW. If someone would have fetched her for a date, he would have had to stop almost in front of the hotel. He or at least his car would be on the security cams. So we know, MW moved away from the hotel entrance and there was back then that empty lot and the convenience store across. Nice place for an ambush. Especially for a stalker type knowing the habits of his victims. So, if I have only fore victims, I can safely connect, with two disappearing from areas enabling blitz-attacks and two, from whom I don't even know where exactly they disappeared, I am not comfortable with just dismissing the idea of "snatching".

You make a good point in this post as well as your last post.

 

[OnTheCase27]

I'm not so sure. Could be a lure or ruse tactics. But then, I look at MBB and see, her last phone call was from a bus terminal really late at night. Enough dark corners, one has to pass.
And I think MW. If someone would have fetched her for a date, he would have had to stop almost in front of the hotel. He or at least his car would be on the security cams. So we know, MW moved away from the hotel entrance and there was back then that empty lot and the convenience store across. Nice place for an ambush. Especially for a stalker type knowing the habits of his victims. So, if I have only fore victims, I can safely connect, with two disappearing from areas enabling blitz-attacks and two, from whom I don't even know where exactly they disappeared, I am not comfortable with just dismissing the idea of "snatching".

But what about Amber who was going to meet a client as per DS' statement? If MBB was snatched from the Port Authority it would be on video. I've been there several times and there are Cameras everywhere. As for MW she may have asked to met at the convenience store or the perp used a side entrance and not the main front one. Most hotels have two or three places to enter. But I will admit there is no guarantee she was meeting someone since she told the person she was with she was going to the store.