Allusonz
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Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #10
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Allusonz
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I have stated a couple of times that I have felt that there was a 4th person specifically with RG. I truly though have not been able to come up with any valid arguments to support it but this is indeed a possiblity I have oft thought about
Right, just read the translation of the whole report, and am now wondering, did these facts hold?"
1. that there may have been a plan to wrap and carry the body? ( the car)
2. that no blood on MK's legs meant she was wearing jeans when attacked, and they were taken off later to simulate rape?
3. that several items of MK's had been put in the washing machine?
Allusonz
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The biggest issue I keep coming up against is the fact that this was announced Case Closed to the world by the 6th, before the return of forensics etc.
If this had of been properly investigated, we probably would have some idea of the various numbers of DNA that were not attributed to anyone. This was a very sloppy investigation and this is one thing that AK cannot be accused of although someone probably has.
As well the prosecutor has his own agenda and from all my research into Italian Law and legal system, it is the prosecutor that basically runs the show. There does not appear to be a separation between LE and the prosecution right up to the judges.
We are still dealing with Italy only accepting DNA analysis from there own forensic lab which to date is still not certified
The list goes on I better not get started :giggle:
If this had of been properly investigated, we probably would have some idea of the various numbers of DNA that were not attributed to anyone. This was a very sloppy investigation and this is one thing that AK cannot be accused of although someone probably has.
As well the prosecutor has his own agenda and from all my research into Italian Law and legal system, it is the prosecutor that basically runs the show. There does not appear to be a separation between LE and the prosecution right up to the judges.
We are still dealing with Italy only accepting DNA analysis from there own forensic lab which to date is still not certified
The list goes on I better not get started :giggle:
I agree fully with you. Originally, I had been more than willing to accept that RG, RS, and AK had waged a sex attack on MK and killed her, because I believed that ILE were doing a scrupulous job, and had solid evidence. Then, when all the questions and holes appeared, I felt it was a travesty. The worst part is that the appeal is not addressing all this.
A few posts back you said there might be a grain of truth to some of the things Rudy claimed early on, so I started thinking about it...
in the other article, it specifically mentions the sheet being wrapped around her. I don't believe I had ever read that before.
I read, in more recent articles, the top sheet was crumpled or tossed underneath the duvet -
Sometimes I think there is a grain of truth in some of the early information.
in the other article, it specifically mentions the sheet being wrapped around her. I don't believe I had ever read that before.
I read, in more recent articles, the top sheet was crumpled or tossed underneath the duvet -
Sometimes I think there is a grain of truth in some of the early information.
this might explain the car seen by reliable witnesses and early on, Rudy specifically mentions it while he was detained in Germany. (pretty sure he was still in Germany)
I tend to agree with Malkmus and his theory
someone did put (what appears to be a full load) of Meredith's clothes in the washing machine - someone was Meredith.
well, I'm thinking there probably was a 4th person - there is the unexplained tissue found w/dna on it, unidentified fingerprints in Meredith's room, the car and the stained pillow case (if they would only test it)
Considering the tod, do you think Rudy would have had time to go get someone or call someone over before 10?
By googling, I found all kind of numbers for how fast stomach contents enter duodenum. This textbook says takes from 1 to 6 hours for stomach to empty. The speed of emptying depends on the composition of the meal.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Vq...stomach contents enter duodenum hours&f=false
I completely agree!
I thought the stomach contents consisted of pizza and apple pie.
Well if it takes from 1 to 6 hours than if she ate after 6 pm her time of death could be anywhere from 7 pm to 12 am based on stomach contents theory.
From Allusunz link: The time of the beginning of a meal to the time the stomach contents empty into the duodenum was given by expert testimony to be between 2-4 hrs with 2-3 hrs more likely.
Mignini has even moved the tod closer to reflect this. Not for scientific reasons but still.
Rigor mortis, livor mortis, and body temperature are all commonly used to determine TOD as well; I am assuming the pathologist used these methods, too?
addendum: I suppose stomach contents is more exact than the above, on second thought. But am now reading this article about the Massei Report on TOD: http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/explaining_the_massei_report_establishing_the_time_when_meredith_passe/
addendum: I suppose stomach contents is more exact than the above, on second thought. But am now reading this article about the Massei Report on TOD: http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/explaining_the_massei_report_establishing_the_time_when_meredith_passe/
The Coroner, Dr. Lalli (whose evidence with regards to his observations and calculations regarding time of death are on Pages 113 to 116 of the Massei Report);
Consultant appointed by the Public Ministers (prosecution), namely Professor Mauro Bacci;
Consultants appointed by the court (the GIP - judge at a previous hearing), namely Professor Giancarlo Umani Ronchi and Professor Mario Cingolani;
Consultant for the civil party, namely Professor Gianaristide Norelli;
Consultant for the defence of Amanda Knox, namely Professor Carlo Torre; and,
Consultants for the defence of Raffaele Sollecito, namely Professor Francesco Introna and Professor Vinci.
Evidence such as the time of Meredith’s last meal (approximately 18.30 hrs) and when she was last seen by her friends (a few minutes before 21.00 hrs) was used by the court to ascertain the earliest possible time of death, i.e. 21.00 hrs was the last time Meredith was seen alive and the “time window” calculated with reference to forensic medical evidence could not start earlier than that [Page 131].
Arguments were heard with regards to how various factors would have affected calculation of time of death, these are all detailed in the Massei Report as are the different views and opinions of the various consultants noted above. The main points of contention were the effect the covering of the body had and the timing of the emptying of the stomach.
Details from the report
Dr. Lalli saw the body at around 14.40 to 15.00 hrs on 2nd November and noted that there was “cadaveric rigidity… of the ankle and toes” [Page 110]. He did not examine the body fully at that time as the scientific police were conducting their investigation and it was important to preserve the crime scene so they could do their job. He first examined the body at 00.50hrs on 3rd November 2007 - it was subject to rigor mortis. Rigor was still established at 12.00 hrs on 3rd November and was resolved by 10.00 hrs on 4th November - and thus he considered that the stages of rigor supported the time window established by the temperature of the body.
Dr. Lalli used both his experience of various factors which affect the rate of loss of heat energy from the body and also mathematical methods - namely the application of the Henssge nomogram - to establish a time window by considering the body temperature.
His calculations led to him reporting a window of between 21 and a half hours and 30 and a half hours prior to his first examination of the body (00.50 hrs 3rd November). He noted that the intermediate point of this window was 23.00 hrs on 1st November [Page 173]. Discussions centred on the weight of the body and also the effect of the cover placed over the body specifically how these would effect the application of the Henssge nomogram.
Looking at the hypostatic staining in this case did not help to narrow the time window [Page 114]. During his first examination of the body at 00.50 hrs on 3rd November Dr. Lalli noted that the stains were not fully fixed - digital pressure caused the stain to fade but not to disappear. In the following examination at 12.00 hrs on 3rd November the hypostasis was “fixed to finger pressure”.
This indicated that death occurred 24 to 36 hours earlier - however it is not known at what precise point in time between the first and second examination of the body that fixation occurred - therefore the court considered that the time of 12.00 hrs on 3rd of November was the latest possible time to count back the 24 to 36 hours.http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/explaining_the_massei_report_establishing_the_time_when_meredith_passe/
Consultant appointed by the Public Ministers (prosecution), namely Professor Mauro Bacci;
Consultants appointed by the court (the GIP - judge at a previous hearing), namely Professor Giancarlo Umani Ronchi and Professor Mario Cingolani;
Consultant for the civil party, namely Professor Gianaristide Norelli;
Consultant for the defence of Amanda Knox, namely Professor Carlo Torre; and,
Consultants for the defence of Raffaele Sollecito, namely Professor Francesco Introna and Professor Vinci.
Evidence such as the time of Meredith’s last meal (approximately 18.30 hrs) and when she was last seen by her friends (a few minutes before 21.00 hrs) was used by the court to ascertain the earliest possible time of death, i.e. 21.00 hrs was the last time Meredith was seen alive and the “time window” calculated with reference to forensic medical evidence could not start earlier than that [Page 131].
Arguments were heard with regards to how various factors would have affected calculation of time of death, these are all detailed in the Massei Report as are the different views and opinions of the various consultants noted above. The main points of contention were the effect the covering of the body had and the timing of the emptying of the stomach.
Details from the report
Dr. Lalli saw the body at around 14.40 to 15.00 hrs on 2nd November and noted that there was “cadaveric rigidity… of the ankle and toes” [Page 110]. He did not examine the body fully at that time as the scientific police were conducting their investigation and it was important to preserve the crime scene so they could do their job. He first examined the body at 00.50hrs on 3rd November 2007 - it was subject to rigor mortis. Rigor was still established at 12.00 hrs on 3rd November and was resolved by 10.00 hrs on 4th November - and thus he considered that the stages of rigor supported the time window established by the temperature of the body.
Dr. Lalli used both his experience of various factors which affect the rate of loss of heat energy from the body and also mathematical methods - namely the application of the Henssge nomogram - to establish a time window by considering the body temperature.
His calculations led to him reporting a window of between 21 and a half hours and 30 and a half hours prior to his first examination of the body (00.50 hrs 3rd November). He noted that the intermediate point of this window was 23.00 hrs on 1st November [Page 173]. Discussions centred on the weight of the body and also the effect of the cover placed over the body specifically how these would effect the application of the Henssge nomogram.
Looking at the hypostatic staining in this case did not help to narrow the time window [Page 114]. During his first examination of the body at 00.50 hrs on 3rd November Dr. Lalli noted that the stains were not fully fixed - digital pressure caused the stain to fade but not to disappear. In the following examination at 12.00 hrs on 3rd November the hypostasis was “fixed to finger pressure”.
This indicated that death occurred 24 to 36 hours earlier - however it is not known at what precise point in time between the first and second examination of the body that fixation occurred - therefore the court considered that the time of 12.00 hrs on 3rd of November was the latest possible time to count back the 24 to 36 hours.http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/explaining_the_massei_report_establishing_the_time_when_meredith_passe/
Just collecting these to try and get it straight within my own mind.
Time of death is a crucial issue in the appeals of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, convicted of murdering British student Meredith Kercher in Perugia, Italy. The appeals will show that the two defendants couldn't have committed the murder based on the victim's stomach contents, cell phone calls made on the night of the crime and lack of usual activity expected from Meredith.
Look for a court battle over time of death when Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito appeal their murder convictions starting on Nov. 24, 2010 in Perugia, Italy. The court contends that victim Meredith Kercher died at 11:30 p.m. The defense places time of death no later than 10 p.m. Since Raffaele's computer showed activity at 9:26 p.m. on the night of the murder, that would make their involvement nearly impossible. In addition, the prosecution's star witness claims to have seen them in a nearby park between 9:30 p.m. to 11:00 p.m. (or 12:00 a.m. depending on the version), giving them alibis for Meredith's time of death.
Stomach Contents and Time of Death
The stomach contents are a reliable way to determine T.O.D in this case because sufficient variables are known. The time of the beginning of a meal to the time the stomach contents empty into the duodenum was given by expert testimony to be between 2-4 hrs with 2-3 hrs more likely. The court watched the actual autopsy performed by pathologist Dr. Lalli, who correctly closed the duodenum to prevent any slippage of the stomach contents downward. The duodenum was found empty showing that the stomach contents had not yet passed from the stomach. The stomach contents were measured to be 500 cc's and the findings indicated cheese and other items consistent with Meredith's meal.
Meredith's meal with friends began around 6:00 p.m. in the evening. She arrived home slightly before 9:00 p.m. That makes three known hours without the stomach contents yet emptying. This makes Meredith's T.O.D.
very probably to be between 9-9:30 p.m. with 10:00 p.m. being at the far end. The court's T.O.D. of 11:30 p.m. would mean the stomach had not passed contents into the duodenum 5.5 hours after the start of Meredith's meal at 6:00 p.m., which is completely beyond a reasonable timeframe.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/6030636/time_of_death_crucial_issue_in_amanda.html?cat=17
Time of death is a crucial issue in the appeals of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, convicted of murdering British student Meredith Kercher in Perugia, Italy. The appeals will show that the two defendants couldn't have committed the murder based on the victim's stomach contents, cell phone calls made on the night of the crime and lack of usual activity expected from Meredith.
Look for a court battle over time of death when Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito appeal their murder convictions starting on Nov. 24, 2010 in Perugia, Italy. The court contends that victim Meredith Kercher died at 11:30 p.m. The defense places time of death no later than 10 p.m. Since Raffaele's computer showed activity at 9:26 p.m. on the night of the murder, that would make their involvement nearly impossible. In addition, the prosecution's star witness claims to have seen them in a nearby park between 9:30 p.m. to 11:00 p.m. (or 12:00 a.m. depending on the version), giving them alibis for Meredith's time of death.
Stomach Contents and Time of Death
The stomach contents are a reliable way to determine T.O.D in this case because sufficient variables are known. The time of the beginning of a meal to the time the stomach contents empty into the duodenum was given by expert testimony to be between 2-4 hrs with 2-3 hrs more likely. The court watched the actual autopsy performed by pathologist Dr. Lalli, who correctly closed the duodenum to prevent any slippage of the stomach contents downward. The duodenum was found empty showing that the stomach contents had not yet passed from the stomach. The stomach contents were measured to be 500 cc's and the findings indicated cheese and other items consistent with Meredith's meal.
Meredith's meal with friends began around 6:00 p.m. in the evening. She arrived home slightly before 9:00 p.m. That makes three known hours without the stomach contents yet emptying. This makes Meredith's T.O.D.
very probably to be between 9-9:30 p.m. with 10:00 p.m. being at the far end. The court's T.O.D. of 11:30 p.m. would mean the stomach had not passed contents into the duodenum 5.5 hours after the start of Meredith's meal at 6:00 p.m., which is completely beyond a reasonable timeframe.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/6030636/time_of_death_crucial_issue_in_amanda.html?cat=17
Cell Phones
At 8:56 p.m. Meredith attempted to call her mother and the call didn't connect. Meredith Kercher's cell phone then registered three suspicious calls around 10:00 p.m. on the night of the murder. The court contends that she was in her bedroom playing with the buttons on her phone. The appeals contend this phone activity was made by her attacker. At 9:58 p.m. a call to her voice mail was made and then hung up. At 10:00 p.m. a call to Abbey Bank in the UK was attempted but the country code of 44 was not entered. Most interestingly, at 10:13 p.m. an MMS was received by Meredith's phone with a ping from a cell phone tower the phone had not connected with before. This tower is consistent with the route from the cottage to the garden where the phones were found. The defense believes the attacker was trying to turn the English cell phone off by hitting random buttons. This phone activity is consistent with a T.O.D between 9-9:30 p.m. with the attacker out of the cottage and walking toward the garden by 10:13 p.m.http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/6030636/time_of_death_crucial_issue_in_amanda_pg2.html?cat=17
At 8:56 p.m. Meredith attempted to call her mother and the call didn't connect. Meredith Kercher's cell phone then registered three suspicious calls around 10:00 p.m. on the night of the murder. The court contends that she was in her bedroom playing with the buttons on her phone. The appeals contend this phone activity was made by her attacker. At 9:58 p.m. a call to her voice mail was made and then hung up. At 10:00 p.m. a call to Abbey Bank in the UK was attempted but the country code of 44 was not entered. Most interestingly, at 10:13 p.m. an MMS was received by Meredith's phone with a ping from a cell phone tower the phone had not connected with before. This tower is consistent with the route from the cottage to the garden where the phones were found. The defense believes the attacker was trying to turn the English cell phone off by hitting random buttons. This phone activity is consistent with a T.O.D between 9-9:30 p.m. with the attacker out of the cottage and walking toward the garden by 10:13 p.m.http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/6030636/time_of_death_crucial_issue_in_amanda_pg2.html?cat=17
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