Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #11

[wasnt_me]

I don't know if anyone checked out this article before:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...a-supergrass-help-clear-Foxy-Knoxys-name.html

One of the sole, incontrovertible facts of the entire case is that Guede, a small-time drug dealer and drifter who had lived in Perugia for many years, was in the house when Meredith was murdered.
He admitted being there, and his DNA and fingerprints are all over the murder scene, as well as on the dead girl's body.
And critically, when Guede was later recorded by the police making a telephone call to a friend, he was clear that Knox and Sollecito had not been at the murder scene.
In Knox's appeal, much attention will focus on how Guede's original version of events was later amended by him to blame the young lovers.
The fact that Guede was allowed to have a separate, fast-tracked trial and to blame Knox and Sollecito without being questioned by their legal teams is also to be scrutinised.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...elp-clear-Foxy-Knoxys-name.html#ixzz1KKNX3Mom

 

[miley]

I was trying to to find the video link Allusonz's posted above on youtube but couldn't... I did find one of a guy scaling a wall - I think this is something Rudy could have easily done:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89BlcmYKZYw&feature=related

 

[Allusonz]

Okay, I have read and watched the following things that were very graciously linked for me. Here are my thoughts in a very long post (fair warning): :dj:

From: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Meredith-Kercher-Trial-Amanda-Knox-Denies-Smashing-Window-To-Divert-Detectives/Article/200907115328274



See, what's weird, is, at first I thought that AK and/or RS were accused of throwing the rock from the outside, and that just seems to make more sense in my head. If RG could throw a rock from the outside, and retired forensic man could throw a rock from the outside, why couldn't AK and/or RS throw a rock from the outside?

Yes, I know and understand that the prosecution and/or ILE suggest it was from the inside. I don't necessarily buy into their entire narrative on this and several other points of their case.



Does anyone know what, if anything, there was to stand on or use as leverage points on the wall of the lawyer's office?

Now on to: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529951,00.html



:waitasec: That sounds eerily familiar...almost as though it's the same article as above...let me read more



Huh.



Ohhh.

Okay, now: http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7995762



Well, it's not a complete repeat, so that's refreshing. Still...see above for my issue with the "outside" thing.

The "shutter issue" has been :deadhorse:, and I have no idea what is correct or not, so :dunno: there.


http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2009/07/

Lots of photos here, including the grate-standing one. But, dang it, there's nine photos and a video, none of which show the window entrance.
Was there a specific ban or seal on these photos/evidence and just the one got loose? You're right, wasn't_me, I do feel the need to see it...if the whole point of the experiment was to prove Mr. Fine Italian shoes could do, then let's see him do it!
:devil:

There's a link to the video that you linked for me earlier, Allusonz, and it works in my other browser...yep, there's a rock going through a window, but no human.

Okay, so http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/07/carabiniere-to-save-raffaele-sollecito.html



Okay, I remember otto talking about this...



O k a y . They mention 3 other "weak" points in the experiment. Oh, but there's an explanation! Oh, right, it was the memories of people that was weak and all those dang shuffling feet that unknowingly kicked glass fragments from under things to on top of things?

And we finish with this:



Is this a google translation or something? wth? In addiction? :giggle:


I do appreciate the links, Allusonz. :gthanks:

I don't believe that there was any conspiracy here. I simply believe that very few reporters attended when the defense presented their side compared to when the prosecution did. You will often come across references to how empty the court room was during the defense presentations.

It has also been stated by many that the defense did not do a great job yet those that were there state quite the opposite so I dont believe it was from lack of trying by them.

You had alot of tabloid interest whether the information was accurate or not.

That is where Frank, Nadeau, Dempsey etc., played an important part as they did attend the court dates thus it appears we tend to get more of the details of the proceedings.

It simply was not popular to air news stories about AK and RS. Thus I believe it was more that the defense presentations were ignored more than the fact that it did not happen.

As well, why if doing a re-inactment would you scale up the wall and not enter through the window as that would be necessary to prove. I sincerely doubt that they climbed or jumped back down

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Allusonz]

I was trying to to find the video link Allusonz's posted above on youtube but couldn't... I did find one of a guy scaling a wall - I think this is something Rudy could have easily done:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89BlcmYKZYw&feature=related

Dang Miley I have scoured youtube for these and like you could not find any. Although I cannot understand Italian, it appeared that the portion that was found was in a news report out of Italy. Maybe we will still come across it though as I would truly love to see it

 

[wasnt_me]

I was trying to to find the video link Allusonz's posted above on youtube but couldn't... I did find one of a guy scaling a wall - I think this is something Rudy could have easily done:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89BlcmYKZYw&feature=related

great sleuthing! Look at this kid. And in some of the comments, they're talking about how they can jump on a 10ft basketball rim, etc.

RG played basketball right? I'm pretty sure he could leap onto rims, too. the cottage wall has been reported anywhere from 13 to 14 ft to the window.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAA5JMaAwlA&NR=1

It's incredible. Look up "wall run" and "scaling a wall" on youtube and see more people do this. Kids might be doing it for fun but thieves LEARN to do this so they an get in your house. I think it's incredibly naive of the prosecution not to think RG could have gotten on the wall and I debated on the other threads to show there was ONE scuff mark on the cottage wall where RG could have scraped on the wall. I also showed pictures of that same wall material on the floor on top of FR's things which proved her things were on the floor when he climbed in the window, but no one really discussed my theories with me, but Otto, who kept saying I was wrong.

 

[wasnt_me]

Okay, I have read and watched the following things that were very graciously linked for me. Here are my thoughts in a very long post (fair warning): :dj:


See, what's weird, is, at first I thought that AK and/or RS were accused of throwing the rock from the outside, and that just seems to make more sense in my head. If RG could throw a rock from the outside, and retired forensic man could throw a rock from the outside, why couldn't AK and/or RS throw a rock from the outside?

I agree, but it the "inside rocking throwing thinking" was FORCED into the puzzle because they say there was no glass outside on the ground. We have read and shared many theories and argued many times that glass could have been on the ground, beneath the fallen leaves. That's why Otto and I debated so much about whether the investigators did a real search of the outside. they took no pictures of the area beneath the window and in the report, they only say that they "observed" that there was no footprints or glass. Hendry offers an excellent theory as to why there were no huge and noticable glass fragments outside.

Does anyone know what, if anything, there was to stand on or use as leverage points on the wall of the lawyer's office?

There were. Otto and I debated this, too, I think in thread 9 or 10. There were grates and terraces; however, as you see in the youtube videos added in this thread, you don't need leverage to scale a short wall.

I extensively wrote about this window in threads 9 and 10. Did you miss those posts? It was back when Otto kept saying stuff like the balcony was more secluded for a break-in, so therefore it was staged. Glass wasn't outside so therefore it was staged. And I illustrated why RG chose the window and how it's possible to only get minute pieces of glass outside the house. In that thread, someone had been talking about how glass broke when they hit windows with golf balls. I can pull the theories forward if they'll help.

 

[claudicici]

I was trying to to find the video link Allusonz's posted above on youtube but couldn't... I did find one of a guy scaling a wall - I think this is something Rudy could have easily done:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89BlcmYKZYw&feature=related

It's not the height that's a problem.It's the width of the ledge.There's not enough room to prop yourself up on.See how this guy can even sit on the ledge?
Unless RG has tiny little hands where did he prop himself up?

 

[SMK]

I just read a theory on PMF. I don't know how much it holds water, but they were supposing that RG, RS, and AK got together to steal the plants from the boys downstairs, and MK somehow caught them.

They were thinking AK got the keys from MK somehow because she was watching the cat and watering the drugs.

Their scenerio is convoluted because they are trying to incorporate ALL the witnesses who heard screams, saw them at the square, the fact that RS or AK brought RS's kitchen knife, the whole nine.

I can't get with their theory of how it happened, but I was interested in their point about the drugs downstairs being attractive.

What if they did get together to do this, and while AK and RS were downstairs doing it, RG decided to crap upstairs, and MK freaked out when she saw him? He started fighting her and all that, and then AK and RS walked in on it?

It is interesting. But why would RG not simply use the downstairs toilet? One thing about the theory, it could possibly explain how a fight had started. It is interesting that LE did not suspect anything about the drug plants. However, were they enough of an enticement that AK and RS would really want to go steal them with RG? If Meredith went to water the plants before bed, and found the 3 of them there, and threatened to phone police (altho phoning police about marijuana plant theft???:waitasec why would the fight have not happened downstairs???

 

[claudicici]

Wasn't there something strange in the boys apartment downstairs? A bed completely stripped and the mattress taken off? Was that ever explained?

 

[claudicici]

AK and RS were stripped and given full medical examinations four days after the murder. Rudy was found two weeks after the murder with cuts on his hands.

That also makes me think of what AK and RS were wearing.
How does the prosecution explain that there were no bloody clothes found?
We know RG was soaked in blood.
He explains it away in his own words.
so what did they think AK and RS did with their clothes?
....or did they get undressed before their murderous Sex and Drug production even started?

 

[wasnt_me]

It's not the height that's a problem.It's the width of the ledge.There's not enough room to prop yourself up on.See how this guy can even sit on the ledge?
Unless RG has tiny little hands where did he prop himself up?

Why does he need to prop himself up on the window sill?

 

[wasnt_me]

It is interesting. But why would RG not simply use the downstairs toilet? One thing about the theory, it could possibly explain how a fight had started. It is interesting that LE did not suspect anything about the drug plants. However, were they enough of an enticement that AK and RS would really want to go steal them with RG? If Meredith went to water the plants before bed, and found the 3 of them there, and threatened to phone police (altho phoning police about marijuana plant theft???:waitasec why would the fight have not happened downstairs???

Yeah, the only thing I could think is that the urge hit RG while they were all upstairs, trying to get the keys for downstairs. Maybe he went in the bathroom while AK was searching for the keys. then they found them and called through the bathroom door to tell RG that they'd be downstairs, so he needed to hurry up. My thinking is that MK wouldn't know AK and Rs were downstairs, because she comes in the house, RG's in there and he hears her and that's how the attack happened. I can't imagine how it would unfold that way, because he'd have no urgency not to flush, because he could have lied to MK that he was just visiting. If RS's car was there, it'd be believable.

 

[wasnt_me]

That also makes me think of what AK and RS were wearing.
How does the prosecution explain that there were no bloody clothes found?
We know RG was soaked in blood.
He explains it away in his own words.
so what did they think AK and RS did with their clothes?
....or did they get undressed before their murderous Sex and Drug production even started?

the bigger question, too, is where did all the blood go? did they check showers and drains with Luminol? They should have checked the cottage showers, the downstairs showers, RS's shower and RG's showers for blood in the drain.

 

[claudicici]

Why does he need to prop himself up on the window sill?

It's easy to climb the crate,now the next step would have to be propping up ,the sill however seems to be only 5 centimeters wide so how is it possible to open the latch without being propped up?

 

[wasnt_me]

This was the only part of this video I have ever seen posted of the re-enactment and it is of the rock being initially thrown and the speaking is in Italian so I have no idea what they are saying

http://video.sky.it/?videoID=28470121001#video

I read that the idiot conducting this experiment let himself be discredited for a very dumb reason. It was because the green shutters appeared to be only "slightly" open the day after the murder. The experimenter said he didn't account for the green shutters being closed.

That's so stupid. All he had to say was RG climbed on the lower grate, pulled the green shutters back, got down, threw the rock in, and once RG was in the house, he pulled the shutters inward to keep from being seen when he turned on the lights. Dauh!

OR he could have said the wind probably blew them.

 

[wasnt_me]

It's easy to climb the crate,now the next step would have to be propping up ,the sill however seems to be only 5 centimeters wide so how is it possible to open the latch without being propped up?

Do you see in that picture how the guy is NOT yet to the top of the grate? do you see how if he takes one more step up the grate (there is one more rung to step on), his arm pits are in line with the window sill? His arms should be long enough to reach up and unlatch it, even if he has to push up on his tip toes. They say he was about RG's height, which is 6ft.

He does not HAVE to prop on the sill, but once you pull those shutters back, you'll see there is more room for propping up, if need be. I have to find the pictures.

I don't think he needs to sit there. I think, as a basketball player, tall with long arms, he could have reached it without propping, but from this pic with the shutters open, I guess you have 3 inches to sit right there, if you need to.

Here's Hendry's detailed explanation:

It's really worth reading and from it, you can gather whether it's possible, or you can decide that it's not possible. I believe Hendry makes a case for propping, but I personally don't see the need.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry------2.html

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry2-----a.html

 

[wasnt_me]

Oh, AND

They should have checked that laundry mat for blood, too, if they believed AK had gone there with some unknown man to wash shoes. But, that would probably open a whole nother can of worms! they probably don't want to do that because they find more "unknown blood and dna" from other crimes ILE botched.

 

[SMK]

Do you see in that picture how the guy is NOT yet to the top of the grate? do you see how if he takes one more step up the grate (there is one more rung to step on), his arm pits are in line with the window sill? His arms should be long enough to reach up and unlatch it, even if he has to push up on his tip toes. They say he was about RG's height, which is 6ft.

He does not HAVE to prop on the sill, but once you pull those shutters back, you'll see there is more room for propping up, if need be. I have to find the pictures.

I don't think he needs to sit there. I think, as a basketball player, tall with long arms, he could have reached it without propping, but from this pic with the shutters open, I guess you have 3 inches to sit right there, if you need to.

Here's Hendry's detailed explanation:

It's really worth reading and from it, you can gather whether it's possible, or you can decide that it's not possible. I believe Hendry makes a case for propping, but I personally don't see the need.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry------2.html

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry2-----a.html

I for one am fully convinced by Hendry's analysis, and taking into account that Rudy Guede was very tall, slim, athletic, young, and practiced in the art of unlawful entry, I think the case is made, with or without propping.

 

[wasnt_me]

Yeah, the only thing I could think is that the urge hit RG while they were all upstairs, trying to get the keys for downstairs. Maybe he went in the bathroom while AK was searching for the keys. then they found them and called through the bathroom door to tell RG that they'd be downstairs, so he needed to hurry up. My thinking is that MK wouldn't know AK and Rs were downstairs, because she comes in the house, RG's in there and he hears her and that's how the attack happened. I can't imagine how it would unfold that way, because he'd have no urgency not to flush, because he could have lied to MK that he was just visiting. If RS's car was there, it'd be believable.

Thinking about this more, I imagine that MK believes the visiting story but ask where AK is. RG lies that she and RS walked to the Piazza to pick up a meal or soemthing, but RG stayed behind because he really had to go to the bathroom. MK, I imagine, would not be comfortable with this, but she'd accept it.

I then imagine that she might see RS and AK hauling one of her BF's plants out of the house downstairs and she gets mad. She tries to go outside to confront them, but RG stops her at her bedroom door, where he's been standing there, conversing and probably making her feel uneasy.

Then the fight starts and he probably pulls the knife. MK might scream, causing RS to rush in to see what's happening. I can't see the leap to sexual assault here, or the ripping of the bra, none of that in this scenerio.

But still, the plants are a better motive than "sex game gone wrong."

 

[SMK]

Thinking about this more, I imagine that MK believes the visiting story but ask where AK is. RG lies that she and RS walked to the Piazza to pick up a meal or soemthing, but RG stayed behind because he really had to go to the bathroom. MK, I imagine, would not be comfortable with this, but she'd accept it.

I then imagine that she might see RS and AK hauling one of her BF's plants out of the house downstairs and she gets mad. She tries to go outside to confront them, but RG stops her at her bedroom door, where he's been standing there, conversing and probably making her feel uneasy.

Then the fight starts and he probably pulls the knife. MK might scream, causing RS to rush in to see what's happening. I can't see the leap to sexual assault here, or the ripping of the bra, none of that in this scenerio.

But still, the plants are a better motive than "sex game gone wrong."

Yes, but not knowing much about marijuana, I have to ask were the plants valuable enough to steal? Theft was in Guede's past, but not AK and RS's. And Sollecito came from a very affluent family, and must as a student have received money from his father. Guede was the poor one. Would AK and RS really want those plants enough to steal them? I actually do not know, so maybe someone else can answer the question.