Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #11

[Nova]

Yeah, and he said the current ADA (who is the she that I refer to) was scared to try it. Ha! I've seen her on other cases, and I thought all she cared about was winning. She's tough-nosed for sure, and when they said she was retrying the case, I just KNEW he was going to stay in jail. But she earned by respect by refusing to try the case based on lies. I was proud of her.

My thought-process exactly. 48 Hours covers a lot of her cases and that is exactly what I expected. So this is my apology to that D.A., who is not only good at her job, but apparently ethical as well.

 

[wasnt_me]

Yes, it was! And that's only one of a number of similar programs I've seen of late. The only thing different was that a later prosecutor actually agreed with the defense position, rather than fighting it tooth and claw just to avoid admitting that mistakes were made.

This is a good place to state that while I have been very critical of the trial in AK's and RS' case and of some aspects of the Italian judicial system, I do NOT do so based on a belief that miscarriages of justice don't happen in my own country. Quite the contrary: I know they happen here, too.

OMG, it's BECAUSE they happen here that I KNOW they can happen other places. Just when I started to get muddled down in the details and wonder if somehow RS and AK did this, I watched the show and remembered how bad it can be when the prosecution gets an idea in its head. That along with social pressure is what makes it happen.

I've been trying to figure out the bra clasp thing as of late. I'm assuming the person who cut it was left handed because of it being cut on the left side of the hooks. I think I want to say RG said the killer was left handed. I was looking at his handwriting and it slanted down as it went from left to right. In my NON professional analysis, I'd say he's left-handed because when I write, it does the same thing, and I am left handed.

 

[SMK]

OMG, it's BECAUSE they happen here that I KNOW they can happen other places. Just when I started to get muddled down in the details and wonder if somehow RS and AK did this, I watched the show and remembered how bad it can be when the prosecution gets an idea in its head. That along with social pressure is what makes it happen.

I've been trying to figure out the bra clasp thing as of late. I'm assuming the person who cut it was left handed because of it being cut on the left side of the hooks. I think I want to say RG said the killer was left handed. I was looking at his handwriting and it slanted down as it went from left to right. In my NON professional analysis, I'd say he's left-handed because when I write, it does the same thing, and I am left handed.

I have come to the same juncture: Believing AK and RS are somehow guilty, and then recalling various cases, such as the Peter Reilly case in Conneticut.

 

[SMK]

OMG, it's BECAUSE they happen here that I KNOW they can happen other places. Just when I started to get muddled down in the details and wonder if somehow RS and AK did this, I watched the show and remembered how bad it can be when the prosecution gets an idea in its head. That along with social pressure is what makes it happen.

I've been trying to figure out the bra clasp thing as of late. I'm assuming the person who cut it was left handed because of it being cut on the left side of the hooks. I think I want to say RG said the killer was left handed. I was looking at his handwriting and it slanted down as it went from left to right. In my NON professional analysis, I'd say he's left-handed because when I write, it does the same thing, and I am left handed.

Would be interesting to know if Guede is in fact left-handed? There was a case here in NJ in 1998 where they determined the killer was left-handed.

 

[Allusonz]

I hope you're right. I just want to add that at least one summary of Italian law seemed to imply that the appeal judge might look at some items in question (such as the knife and bra clasp), just as you describe, and then order a retrial.

If the retrial were ordered, it would commence shortly before the same, appellate judge.

So I'm not sure whether the next step will be an appellate decision as to a new trial or as to guilt/innocence.

I will agree with you here. It appears that it can be an and/or situation but will admit after reviewing this all I am tired thus I could be reading it wrong

Thus either way the reason this judge ruled this time would be applied to their sentences (if I am interpreting this Italian right)

 

[Allusonz]

OMG, it's BECAUSE they happen here that I KNOW they can happen other places. Just when I started to get muddled down in the details and wonder if somehow RS and AK did this, I watched the show and remembered how bad it can be when the prosecution gets an idea in its head. That along with social pressure is what makes it happen.

I've been trying to figure out the bra clasp thing as of late. I'm assuming the person who cut it was left handed because of it being cut on the left side of the hooks. I think I want to say RG said the killer was left handed. I was looking at his handwriting and it slanted down as it went from left to right. In my NON professional analysis, I'd say he's left-handed because when I write, it does the same thing, and I am left handed.

It was not cut it was ripped as per the ILE and I have a link for that just need to take a break here and talk to my children then will find it and post it

 

[wasnt_me]

That thing looked cut. I understand what you're saying about ILE's assessment, though, I thought I'd read elsewhere that it was cut.

I'm not disputing you on the cut/ripped factor. I just have to go back and reasearch it again to correct myself, if need be.

Okay, Allusunz, thanks for the correction because I just found a rather LENGTHY analysis of this bra, with pictures included. I'm going to read this in detail, but an overview of it shows that snagging the bra strap actually caused the whole bra to unravel. Then I guess the clasp ripped away in the unraveling.

Which begs the question, why would RS or RG have to touch the bra clasp AT ALL??


The people who put together this case against RS and AK couldn't put together a believable seseame street skit for kids.

http://injusticeinperugia.blogspot.com/2011/04/how-enraged-killer-ripped-victims-bra.html

 

[wasnt_me]

I also found a good debate about the broken window here:

http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum....blic-discussion-forum-2-8-2011-t747-2600.html

(On page 27, if the link does not take you to it)

in that discussion, they said many of the same things we said here in our theories about why the break in was real.

However, they added a theory, at least one of them did, that I hadn't considered before.

I remember when Allusunz or SMK said that RG might have thrown the rock to see if anyone were home.

This person says the same thing, but adds, while RG was waiting for a reaction, he heard MK at the gate or coming down the drive. Maybe she was calling her mom, and he interrupted her, claiming he'd just tried to visit downstairs, but no one was home, and he REALLY had to go to the bathroom.

So she didn't connect with her mom because he walked up to her. OR he could have waited for her to enter the house. She then was calling her mom when the doorbell rang. She hung up the phone to answer the door for RG.

Maybe he then went in the bathroom, did his thing, and she might have gotten scared, seeing the broken window. Who knows. It's not my theory. But it shows that other possibilities are there, thus reasonable doubt.

 

[SMK]

I also found a good debate about the broken window here:

http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum....blic-discussion-forum-2-8-2011-t747-2600.html

(On page 27, if the link does not take you to it)

in that discussion, they said many of the same things we said here in our theories about why the break in was real.

However, they added a theory, at least one of them did, that I hadn't considered before.

I remember when Allusunz or SMK said that RG might have thrown the rock to see if anyone were home.

This person says the same thing, but adds, while RG was waiting for a reaction, he heard MK at the gate or coming down the drive. Maybe she was calling her mom, and he interrupted her, claiming he'd just tried to visit downstairs, but no one was home, and he REALLY had to go to the bathroom.

So she didn't connect with her mom because he walked up to her. OR he could have waited for her to enter the house. She then was calling her mom when the doorbell rang. She hung up the phone to answer the door for RG.

Maybe he then went in the bathroom, did his thing, and she might have gotten scared, seeing the broken window. Who knows. It's not my theory. But it shows that other possibilities are there, thus reasonable doubt.

definitely worth thinking about.

 

[wasnt_me]

Ah, I found out where I got the "cutting" from. I got it from the Motivation report.

The link I put above about the bra states:

However, the Prosecution and indeed Presiding Judge Massei, maintained that Raffaele Sollecito participated in the effort to remove the bra. Judge Massei in his sentencing report said that Raffaele Sollecito “---, finding himself behind Meredith, pulling on the bra with violence, finally deciding to cut it) ---”. Massei says Raffaele cut the bra with his own pocket knife.


The gripping and pulling actions all occurred on the bra fabric. If Raffaele participated in the violent pulling action to remove the bra, then his DNA should show up in several locations on the bra fabric.

http://injusticeinperugia.blogspot.com/2011/04/how-enraged-killer-ripped-victims-bra.html

Reading this analysis, I cannot really believe the bra was ripped off her when she was stabbed and struggling to breathe. I believe RG was yanking on it, trying to get control of her at some point while she was trying to get away. Then he gets the knife up to her neck. Or something a long those lines. It just seems that the force needed to pull that bra like that, indicates struggle, not someone cutting a bra later, while MK lay on the floor helpless. I just get the indication she was fighting when it happened. He may have taken the bra completely off once he stabbed her over by the waredrobe and she fell there. He probably slid her to the middle of the room, making that streak mark and then rolled her over and took off the bra entirely. I think, according to Hendry, there were blood spatters on her breasts, indicating she was breathing and the blood splattered out from her neck.

Awful. God...

I imagine he began his sexual assault. Probably turned himself off, since she was dying or dead as he did it, so he probably stopped on his own. I'm guessing this because I am guessing it's the first time he tried to have sex with someone in this particularly bloody situation. I'm not saying he never raped anyone before or forced anyone before, because we don't know that. I'm guessing this is the first where the woman was fatally wounded in the middle of it.

 

[claudicici]

I have to admit I did not consider the pictures of the window with the shutters open.
There was enough room to prop up.Maybe the simplest explanation,the "lone wolf theory" is the correct one after all.Considering RG's background I can see a psychological breakdown and the leap from small time "looser" to killer.But questions still remain in my mind,even though the bra clasp lay there and was tossed around ,how did RS's DNA get on it?
If the tables were turned and the white,american,pretty college student claimed she was sitting on the toilet during the attack and then got her DNA all over the crime scene and fled because she was scared and RG would have implicated someone innocent would we take another point of view? Would we believe AK instead of RG?
I'm almost convinced now you guys are right and AK and RS are completely innocent but for some reason something still doesn't feel right to me....

 

[SMK]

I have to admit I did not consider the pictures of the window with the shutters open.
There was enough room to prop up.Maybe the simplest explanation,the "lone wolf theory" is the correct one after all.Considering RG's background I can see a psychological breakdown and the leap from small time "looser" to killer.But questions still remain in my mind,even though the bra clasp lay there and was tossed around ,how did RS's DNA get on it?
If the tables were turned and the white,american,pretty college student claimed she was sitting on the toilet during the attack and then got her DNA all over the crime scene and fled because she was scared and RG would have implicated someone innocent would we take another point of view? Would we believe AK instead of RG?
I'm almost convinced now you guys are right and AK and RS are completely innocent but for some reason something still doesn't feel right to me....

There is always the feeling that they may have known more than they were saying, I agree. But I still believe Guede is the killer.

ETA:As discussed elsewhere on these threads, they may have somehow known Guede was going to see MK, and they perhaps found the body, and much earlier than they claimed. But I do not think they killed her.

 

[SMK]

I came across this post by someone who read the entire Massei Motivation Report and found it absolutely mind-blowing, and going against the time-honored law of Occam's Razor (the simplest explanation which covers the facts is the likely one).

The jury concluded that someone had to have entered the house with a key because the broken window was staged and there was no forced entry at the front door. They assumed that Meredith Kercher, from friends' testimony, that she would have never allowed Rudy Guede to enter the cottage. Every friend of Meredith claimed she didn't know him that well. They actually mentioned Kercher's watering of her downstairs boyfriend's marijuana plants as proof that she liked him enough to not cheat on him with another person.

Therefore, he must have been let in by someone with a key other than Kercher. This was a key aspect of why Knox and Sollecito were considered suspects in the first place.

Yet, another Italian roommate had the exact same alibi as Knox, that she spent the night with her boyfriend. There is no mention that the police ever investigated the other roommate's alibi like they did Knox's.

Even still, every one of Knox's & Sollecito's friends gave the same answers regarding Guede. None of those girls knew him that well, and neither did Sollecito. Yet, this judge and jury concludes that Kercher would have never let him in the house, but Knox and Sollecito arranged a 3-person violent orgy with him.

I've never seen anything like this. Here, the victim's friends stating that she didn't know Guede very well played a huge role in determing that she would never let him into the cottage while alone. But, when Knox and Sollecito's friends say the same thing, it is ignored. Not only is it ignored, the court goes on to assume there was a violent pact among them. The court also ignord Guede's statements that he had arranged a date with Kercher on Halloween night, and also that he didn't know Knox or Sollecito that well.

- Also, the jury used a neighbors statement as a key piece of evidence in proving there was more than 1 killer responsible. The neighbor claimed to have heard a loud scream and the footsteps of two people running in opposite directions away from the cottage. This was never questioned. Yet, elsewhere, the report claims that bloody footprints outline that Guede headed directly for the exit after leaving her bedroom. Therefore, the blood in the bathroom had to be attributed to a 2nd or 3rd party. The report claims that Knox and Sollecito went into the bathroom and that Sollecito "washed" himself for a few minutes. This theory flies in direct opposition to the neighbors account of hearing two sets of footsteps. Yet, the court document never discusses it.http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=172&f=2488&t=7455719

 

[OldSteve]

At least one site implied that the appeals court can look at certain issues (such as the issue under review in AK's and RS' case) and then, particular if that look reveals new evidence, the appeals court can decide to retry the entire case itself.

If this is true, then perhaps there is hope that the ongoing evaluation of the paltry DNA evidence may ultimately result in a new trial by the appeals court.

But I haven't found a site that discusses this clearly.

Wow! Sounds like a person can remind in jail for life awaiting appeal outcome, then new trial, etc.....

 

[dgfred]

Wonder why (if the defense is a burgler came in through the window) there is no presentation with a guy similar in stature and weight of RG actually climbing the wall by himself and up and through the window with ease? I wonder :waitasec:

Reaching the sill //or actually climbing the wall and going through are quite a big difference. Would be interesting to see.

 

[SMK]

Wonder why (if the defense is a burgler came in through the window) there is no presentation with a guy similar in stature and weight of RG actually climbing the wall by himself and up and through the window with ease? I wonder :waitasec:

Reaching the sill //or actually climbing the wall and going through are quite a big difference. Would be interesting to see.

I think the fact that Guede was known to be very athletic, very agile, young, and slim, 6 foot tall, and a good basketball player, experienced in unlawful entry, pretty much calls for this. I think it would be done with ease. I think they ought to have made such a video, absolutely.

ETA: Especially since the man they used looked dumpy and awkward and had dress shoes on. I am sure Guede had sneakers. Guede was younger, too.

 

[Nova]

Wow! Sounds like a person can remind in jail for life awaiting appeal outcome, then new trial, etc.....

The appellate court ordered a new trial for that defendant in 2006. Four more years passed (!) before the prosecution decided not to try him again and he was finally released in 2010.

 

[flourish]

Wonder why (if the defense is a burgler came in through the window) there is no presentation with a guy similar in stature and weight of RG actually climbing the wall by himself and up and through the window with ease? I wonder :waitasec:

Reaching the sill //or actually climbing the wall and going through are quite a big difference. Would be interesting to see.

I think the fact that Guede was known to be very athletic, very agile, young, and slim, 6 foot tall, and a good basketball player, experienced in unlawful entry, pretty much calls for this. I think it would be done with ease. I think they ought to have made such a video, absolutely.

ETA: Especially since the man they used looked dumpy and awkward and had dress shoes on. I am sure Guede had sneakers. Guede was younger, too.

dgfred--good point! Are there really no athletic, agile, young, slim, tall basketball players left in Italy that would be willing to help by climbing in that or another "equal" window? Only the one guy in the Italian shoes that may or may not have actually gotten in the window? With all the insistence that it'd be easy to climb into that window, certainly there's someone who can actually do it and be filmed doing so...

Of course, if it's so easy, then the Italian shoe guy should have been able to do it...

:waitasec:

 

[Malkmus]

Wonder why (if the defense is a burgler came in through the window) there is no presentation with a guy similar in stature and weight of RG actually climbing the wall by himself and up and through the window with ease? I wonder :waitasec:

Reaching the sill //or actually climbing the wall and going through are quite a big difference. Would be interesting to see.

Probably because the notion that no one would have been capable of the window-climb is and has been perpetrated by internet posters, not the Italian courts, prosecution, or judges. If they were to make such a video it would be in response to us, therefore, a waste of time. Judge Micheli conceded that it would not take Spiderman to do it, and the Massei report concludes that it couldn't be done because of Filomena's (dubious and contradictory) testimony that she had closed the shutters. Nothing to do with height or difficulty in hoisting oneself up over the ledge.

ETA: And actually, the Massei report doesn't say it couldn't be done with the shutters closed, only that it would have required multiple trips up the wall to open them first.

 

[SMK]

Probably because the notion that no one would have been capable of the window-climb is and has been perpetrated by internet posters, not the Italian courts, prosecution, or judges. If they were to make such a video it would be in response to us, therefore, a waste of time. Judge Micheli conceded that it would not take Spiderman to do it, and the Massei report concludes that it couldn't be done because of Filomena's (dubious and contradictory) testimony that she had closed the shutters. Nothing to do with height or difficulty in hoisting oneself up over the ledge.

Point nicely made, bravo.