Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

[SMK]

I believe it was Edda that described Perugia as a backwards medieval town - odd description given that there are a couple of colleges and universities that attract an international crowd.

Knox and Sollecito are victims of their own making. If they were innocent of the murder, they should have been truthful and forthcoming from the beginning.

Are you saying that even if they are indeed innocent, that they should stand convicted and sentenced for decades because they behaved like asses at the beginning? Just checking.:waitasec:

 

[SMK]

I don't find it unbelievable that one of them would do such a thing. The difficult thing to imagine is that it is spontaneous (not planned before 8:20 pm). Between people who don't know each other well (is it 2 weeks or 1 week the relationship with Raffaelle?). Guede is almost a stranger. On top of that it is a murder with multiple knives.

The multiple knives/spontaneous scenario... you would expect with people overtaken by the heat of the moment to all have knives in their hands at the moment they stop behaving rationally. At least I would. In order to make that work, the three murderers would have been playing some sexually charged game with knives that led into the murder. And one of those knives had to have been a kitchen knife brought from Raffaelle's home. OR since it was the day after Halloween (more likely), they decided to go over and scare Meredith with the knives (lie in wait in the dark). Then after having a good laugh over it, the situation progressed to a darker place.

The other scenario, of first Rudy attacking with a knife, and then Raffaelle pulling out his pocket knife from his pocket, then Amanda having to go grab this kitchen knife and then race across the room, down the hallway and into Meredith's bedroom with it to attack Meredith seems amazingly crazy to me. I suppose Amanda could have attacked first, and then Raf and Rudy, who DID carry knives on their person, joined in after. It's also a little weird to see a girl get carried away by a sexually charged atmosphere, such that she is willing to attack someone with a knife.

Anyway, that would make all three of them sociopaths. Sociopaths who met by circumstance.

That being said, I think the initial evidence led them to suspecting Amanda and Raf because the initial evidence is damaging. Showering at a murder scene, wandering around with mops, pointing the finger at an innocent man. ..

Right. If they are innocent, then it is unfortunate that MK was in a locked room, and they did not see immediately what had taken place, and phone the police. IF they are innocent, then this was bad providence.

 

[wasnt_me]

No, I think "the Sun's" video was spliced to put both RG and MK in it, but I don't think they were actually there at the same time, and I don't think RG came after MK. I think he came before.

The picture from Oggi looks like the same dude as in the sun's video, but Oggi's timestamp is 740pm and 810pm, which is really 752pm and 822pm, which accounts for the slow clock. The Sun's video has the timestamp cut off entirely, and it looks like the video jumps between seeing MK and then eseing RG. So I think the Sun's video is doctored because we know MK left her friend at like 850pm, she we know RG couldn't have been walking anywhere AFTER her. It was before, just like the picture stamp at the bottom of the Oggie photo indicates.

RG probably went to see if the boys wanted to play b-ball, remembered they said they'd be gone, then went to get himself something eat. While eating, he just decided he'd break in and steal stuff since the girls weren't home. Also, he could have been going there for MK all a long, since this was the time her BF was out of town. He might not even have had his bag of regular tools.

He went, cased the place out, chose FR's window, probably got in about 830-840pm. That gave him about 15 minutes inside. he claims in, gets some juice and realizes he's gotta take a crap.

MK gets home, probably sees the light in the bathroom on, ends her dialing to her parents. Probably smells the crap, too. Because its dark and the bathroom light is on and she knows no one should be home, as RF was with BF, AK was working and spending her nights with RS, and LM was out of town. MK probably knew the bathroom light shouldn't be on and she shouldn't be smelling crap.

He probably barreled out of the bathroom, either made his excuses to her or immediately tried to get out the door, with his pants falling down. He couldn't open the door, because MK had deadbolted it and it needed a key to open.

This is the best scenerio I can think of. I don't know how long she stayed alive, fighting or being sexually assaulted. There might have been some talking involved, because she had seen RG around town and downstairs before, but she probably got uncomfortable enough with his BS that he started to notice. Maybe she even tried to go along with him, but suddenly tried to bolt for the door herself, and he tried to grab her, then she tried to go to her room to lock herself in, but he was too fast and the attack started right there by her bed.

 

[SMK]

That's a bit of bad news for Sollecito and his American girlfriend Knox.

Was it the prosecutor's objective to force their hand, have them parade the prisoner circus through appeal court and then have Guede testify that he either cannot speak or can speak and will implicate the convicted murderers. What then???

If Guede accuses Knox and Sollecito, are they allowed to confront him with questions and, if so, can Knox demonstrate that he is lying? I guess the first question is whether Sollecito and his girlfriend can challenge the third party in court if he confirms or implies their guilt.

This case has dragged on so long for the victim's family ... who have never doubted the verdicts.

from the article link:

Walter Biscotti and Nicodemo Gentile said: 'This crime was motivated by a row over money between Meredith and Amanda Knox — and she was killed by Amanda as a result of this row. There is no proof at all to say it was motivated by sex and nothing to suggest our client was involved.

"Rudy has always admitted being at the scene but he had nothing to do with any sexual assault and murder — this crime was motivated by a row over cash and nothing else."

OK, if true, then why was Rudy's DNA found inside Ms. Kercher's body? Does anyone really believe that MK, newly in love with her boyfriend downstairs, had sex with Guede of her own volition? I hope they point this out when he babbles on Monday.

 

[wasnt_me]

from the article link:

OK, if true, then why was Rudy's DNA found inside Ms. Kercher's body? Does anyone really believe that MK, newly in love with her boyfriend downstairs, had sex with Guede of her own volition? I hope they point this out when he babbles on Monday.

They can say that, but will the court take offense to smearing MK?

RG says they didn't have sex because there was no condom. I don't believe him. I believe it's in her because he at least tried to penetrate her. Maybe he was just unsuccessful. Or he went flat and couldn't do the act, and he doesnt want anyone to know he couldn't keep it up.

 

[otto]

I don't find it unbelievable that one of them would do such a thing. The difficult thing to imagine is that it is spontaneous (not planned before 8:20 pm). Between people who don't know each other well (is it 2 weeks or 1 week the relationship with Raffaelle?). Guede is almost a stranger. On top of that it is a murder with multiple knives.

The multiple knives/spontaneous scenario... you would expect with people overtaken by the heat of the moment to all have knives in their hands at the moment they stop behaving rationally. At least I would. In order to make that work, the three murderers would have been playing some sexually charged game with knives that led into the murder. And one of those knives had to have been a kitchen knife brought from Raffaelle's home. OR since it was the day after Halloween (more likely), they decided to go over and scare Meredith with the knives (lie in wait in the dark). Then after having a good laugh over it, the situation progressed to a darker place.

The other scenario, of first Rudy attacking with a knife, and then Raffaelle pulling out his pocket knife from his pocket, then Amanda having to go grab this kitchen knife and then race across the room, down the hallway and into Meredith's bedroom with it to attack Meredith seems amazingly crazy to me. I suppose Amanda could have attacked first, and then Raf and Rudy, who DID carry knives on their person, joined in after. It's also a little weird to see a girl get carried away by a sexually charged atmosphere, such that she is willing to attack someone with a knife.

Anyway, that would make all three of them sociopaths. Sociopaths who met by circumstance.

That being said, I think the initial evidence led them to suspecting Amanda and Raf because the initial evidence is damaging. Showering at a murder scene, wandering around with mops, pointing the finger at an innocent man. ..

There is lots to ponder when first looking at this case. In terms of Sollecito's knife with DNA from Knox (handle) and Meredith (blade), we should know soon enough whether the analysis was done correctly and whether there was possible contamination. It's possible the knife evidence will be rejected, in which case the remaining evidence is sufficient to sustain the conviction (IMO). If the knife evidence is accepted, then there is little doubt that the conviction will stand. I don't think it's possible to understand why a couple of drugged up people decide to wander around with knives. Sollecito always carried a knife, and perhaps Knox thought it would be funny to carry one too - quirky Knox being quirky.

Not everyone that commits murder under the influence of drugs is a sociopath.

One of the first problems investigators encountered with the scene was staging. It's just like when police enter a home, find a dead person, see a couple of jewelry draws tossed and know that the scene is staged. The staging related to the broken window and the problem was that the glass was on top of the clothes that were pulled off the shelves and thrown onto the floor - meaning someone entered the cottage through the front door, ransacked the room, then broke the window. Asking the question of who had the opportunity to stage the break-in and why a break-in would be staged was answered with one name: Knox. There is really no way around this. Much has been said by people who are miles away and who did not attend the scene or trial, but none of those discussions change the fact that those who were at the scene can only conclude that the break-in was staged.

 

[otto]

When was this article dated?

Which article?

 

[wasnt_me]

Emyr,

Timesframes have to be pushed forward and back at the same time to accomodate credible witnesses, the CCTV video (if it's legit) , the cell phone calls, and the computer files, which all give us some kind of time stamp. in your prosecution theory, I can't remember if you accounted for MK playing with her cell phone between what? 950 and 1013pm.

RS's last file manually opened at 926pm, and we are hopefully about to see some evidence of his computer logging his keystrokes, too.

Additionally, in your pros story, account for the homeless man, who said he saw RS and AK at 927pm looking over at the cottage from where his bench was. Also for the woman who heard a scream and running at the same time that the tow truck driver and family outside in the street said they heard and saw nothing and all the lights in the cottage were dimmed. i "Think" this was 1030pm to 1130pm. But then account for the dude who saw the tow truck, threw cellphones and olives at AK as she chased him down the street with a knife. You also need to include the oh so credible shop owner who saw AK at 745am, NOT buying bleach that he claims she was waiting outside for him to open so she could do just that.

MK's blood and RG's fingerprints were on her purse, which was sitting on the bed near where some of RG's bloody footprints seemed to have indicated that he sat or stood there by the purse. So he went in there. For phones, for money, whatever, he really did get in the purse.

Don't forget to account for how the clothes that FR saw AK in the day of the murder are on Ak's bed with NO BLOOD or evidence on them.

 

[otto]

Are you saying that even if they are indeed innocent, that they should stand convicted and sentenced for decades because they behaved like asses at the beginning? Just checking.:waitasec:

At this time, I don't believe they are innocent - a jury has found them guilty of murder.

 

[otto]

from the article link:

OK, if true, then why was Rudy's DNA found inside Ms. Kercher's body? Does anyone really believe that MK, newly in love with her boyfriend downstairs, had sex with Guede of her own volition? I hope they point this out when he babbles on Monday.

Rudy hasn't denied sexual contact, he has denied that he assaulted the victim. Rudy doesn't tell the truth. My understanding is that Rudy will testify as to whether he told stories to his fellow inmates. I think it's anyone's guess as to whether the details of the night of the murder will emerge or whether Rudy will be excused after clarifying whether any of the prisoner lies came from him.

 

[emyr]

best scenario defense:

for break in: Rudy opens shutter, or shutter slightly ajar so he can throw a rock through to see if anyone is there. He breaks into house through front door, then goes to the room to close the shutters so you wont' see the broken window. In the dark, he bumps and stumbles, scattering clothes on the ground. When he reaches the window and opens it to close the outdoor shutters, glass falls on top of the clothes. Alternatively, he spiderman scales the walls, comes in through the window, stumbling in the dark and scattering the clothes, and as he shuts the window/stumbles against it, glass falls on top of them. Alternatively, in the chaos of the moment of discovery, glass gets shuffled on top of things. Alternatively, Filomena is under stress and later suspicious of Amanda and so her memory is tainted (unintentionally) of the condition of the scene.

He drinks orange juice, takes a dump. Meredith arrives. He either pretends someone invited hi there and he is with them or he remains hidden in the bathroom. He sees that it is Meredith, alone and becomes sexually excited about the situation. Or perhaps he came here looking for the girls in the first place. Meredith, feeling suspicious, discovers the broken window in the room. She runs to her bedroom to call the police using her cell phones. Rudy emerges, giving chase with his knife. He attacks her from behind and there is a struggle over phones. He attacks her from the left and the right, alternating blows (because he is trying to get the phones?) As she collapses to the ground, he attempts to sexually assault her. She manages to get to her phone and he hears it make a connection which panics him. He grabs the phones from her and flees, and tries to see if she called the police with them. Fearing he can be tracked using the phones he throws them in the garden. He waits to see if he's in trouble, having left his stuff behind. (In Filomena's bedroom?)

He returns to get his things. First he goes into Meredith's bedroom and quickly grabs what looks valuable from Merediths purse, but does not rob anything else because he is worried that someone could come in at any moment. He finds her keys in her purse, and locks her door before he leaves. (Unless the door can be auto-locked without the keys). He throws the duvet over her. He locks the room so that if someone comes in while he is cleaning up in the bathroom, they won't see murder.

He quickly cleans off the obvious blood so he can walk down the street without looking suspicious (He is not interested in cleaning up the scene). The bloody footprint in the room is his, masked by the soft pillow. The blood spatters in the bathroom are his, as is the bloody footprint, the toe of which, through bad luck, appears to look more like Raf's. He does not track bloody sneaker prints back in because the blood has completely dried on his sneakers at this point or because it is washed off from being outside.

Amanda arrives the next day to get ready to leave for a trip with Raffaelle. She is slightly concerned about the state she finds the house in, but takes a shower anyway. She steps in something that causes the front half of only her right foot to flouresce. She takes a mop to go back to her boyfriends to clean up a floor that was dirtied 14 hours beforehand. They then return and call her roommate to report a break-in. The CCTV footage incorrectly makes it look like they didn't call the police, but they did. Amanda fears that the burglar might still be in the house, and realizes she might have been murdered as well, so she takes comfort in the arms of her boyfriend. She can't understand the language and so hangs back and communicates to the officers in a mangled way that they find suspicious.

She is then taken into custody where, after lengthy questioning (and in response to police pointing out a text from Lumamba) that Lumamba is responsible. She then states shortly thereafter that this statement does not feel real to her.

Meredith's DNA on the top of the knife happened because Amanda brought it to the house for some reason, or because of contamination or because the police planted it.

Raf's DNA on the bra strap happened because of contamination, poor protocol, or because the police planted it.

To believe this scenario you have to believe:
1) Either a convoluted story of the break-in (see above) or that the break-in was real but left little evidence of disturbed ground, marks on the building, and happened in a less desireable break-in point. OR that Rudy would stage the break-in.
2) That Rudy would flee and return. OR after murdering meredith he went to the bathroom without leaving prints, washed off, returned to her room, got his stuff, and then abruptly fled without robbing any more (because he was worried she'd called for help on the phone?) Note: his shoe prints could have become bloody the second time he entered the room. i.e. he went to the bathroom, cleaned off, came in and tried to stop the bleeding... which is when his shoes became bloody.
3) That Rudy would have alternated knife strikes from one side to the other. And a scenario where he would also disrobe her. The Messai report does a good job of making this seem extremely difficult.
4) You must believe two piece of evidence were planted or tainted.
5) You must believe two pieces of evidence are incorrectly identified. (footprints)
6) You must discount several bizarre statements given by the defendants. (false accusation, a really weird story about a mop that however appears to not have been used at the murder scene, and a really weird shower story that involves hopping around and using a bathmat as a towel that appears customized to the exact evidence found... i.e. hopping and sliding on bathmats and explaining a drop of blood.)

Ironically, the part I find the weirdest is the earrings part since she had no cut on her body, so explaining why her blood is in there does not have anything to do with anything. Except perhaps helping the prosecution, because they can say all the evidence in there came from the 24 hours around the murder and not prior to that. Then again, she could be crafting her stories to match exactly everything she sees...

I will say, again, that in my own experience, I actually did create a story to match the evidence I saw, but attributed it to my own memory. When I was shown video, I realized I was wrong. That was in a car accident situation though.

 

[emyr]

Emyr,

Timesframes have to be pushed forward and back at the same time to accomodate credible witnesses, the CCTV video (if it's legit) , the cell phone calls, and the computer files, which all give us some kind of time stamp. in your prosecution theory, I can't remember if you accounted for MK playing with her cell phone between what? 950 and 1013pm.

RS's last file manually opened at 926pm, and we are hopefully about to see some evidence of his computer logging his keystrokes, too.

Additionally, in your pros story, account for the homeless man, who said he saw RS and AK at 927pm looking over at the cottage from where his bench was. Also for the woman who heard a scream and running at the same time that the tow truck driver and family outside in the street said they heard and saw nothing and all the lights in the cottage were dimmed. i "Think" this was 1030pm to 1130pm. But then account for the dude who saw the tow truck, threw cellphones and olives at AK as she chased him down the street with a knife. You also need to include the oh so credible shop owner who saw AK at 745am, NOT buying bleach that he claims she was waiting outside for him to open so she could do just that.

MK's blood and RG's fingerprints were on her purse, which was sitting on the bed near where some of RG's bloody footprints seemed to have indicated that he sat or stood there by the purse. So he went in there. For phones, for money, whatever, he really did get in the purse.

Don't forget to account for how the clothes that FR saw AK in the day of the murder are on Ak's bed with NO BLOOD or evidence on them.

I'm trying to start with the stuff we only know to be true now. The clear problem with the prosecution is that half of their evidence HAS been proven to be not usable. The shop owner, the homeless guy, completley not credible. (Homeless guy remembered buses when there were none, so you can't be certain of the day he saw anything). I have to say, Kokomani's statements make me think he could be Rudy's accomplice. i.e. He and Rudy broke in together, then Kokamani goes to the bar and says he was attacked by crazy people with knives.... makes me think he was there witha knife and tried to establish a drunken alibi. On the other hand, I think it backs up the idea that maybe more than one person WAS there with knives. Anyway, I dismissed it.

The telephone for prosecution could go either way. All three of them attack Meredith and the phone dials those numbers as a result of her fumbling for it in the attack. Or the killer is fumbling with it after the attack Or she is playing with her phone. All it establishes are the phones are in the house and someone is manipulating them.

I'm actually trying to come up with two scenarios supported by the most clinical evidence possible. The key word is "trying."

 

[wasnt_me]

Thanks, I was half joking about some of them, but it is a fact that these activities happened with MK's phones at certain times, so it's good to add them in your scenerios.

Forgot it add, if you're building a prosecution case, you should use the elements they deemed truthful, which the homeless guy was one and the scream heard with the windows shut was another. they built their case on it, so....

Oh, but if you're doing it from the judge's standpoint, then I understand what you're doing. I thought about it whilst making myself a snack--which did NOT contain mushrooms....

 

[SMK]

They can say that, but will the court take offense to smearing MK?

RG says they didn't have sex because there was no condom. I don't believe him. I believe it's in her because he at least tried to penetrate her. Maybe he was just unsuccessful. Or he went flat and couldn't do the act, and he doesnt want anyone to know he couldn't keep it up.

Right. If this was a row about cash only, and RG explains his dna inside Ms. Kercher as coming from consensual sex, he should be asked to explain this. I doubt the victim's family wants to hear him lying about their consensual sex. This is a huge contradiction of what his attorney says in the article.

 

[SMK]

Which article?

Oh, sorry. I guess it was wasntme who posted the article.

 

[wasnt_me]

Right. If this was a row about cash only, and RG explains his dna inside Ms. Kercher as coming from consensual sex, he should be asked to explain this. I doubt the victim's family wants to hear him lying about their consensual sex. This is a huge contradiction of what his attorney says in the article.

It most certainly is a huge one. Maybe his attorney needs to be called as a "witness."

 

[Nova]

I believe it was Edda that described Perugia as a backwards medieval town - odd description given that there are a couple of colleges and universities that attract an international crowd.

The universities may be excellent. The justice system and forensics department of ILE date back to Dante.

Knox and Sollecito are victims of their own making. If they were innocent of the murder, they should have been truthful and forthcoming from the beginning.

Easier said than done in the face of a tag-team interrogation.

 

[wasnt_me]

Emyr,

Respectfully, the defense story needs work. I believe in the defenses' case, but not the scenerio you proposed for it. Your prosecution case was more believeable. It could be because you might not have a clear view of the defenses side yet. You also said you were doing it based on facts we know in the case. We do not know for a fact that it's RS's footprint in the bathroom or that it was a staged break-in. both sides were presented in court, the judge choose items from both sides, the prosecution and defense upon which to base his motivation for guilt. There is convincing evidence that the defense presented and is bringing into the appeal to prove their case about the bathmat footprint.

1. I don't believe they were fighting over phones.
2. I don't believe RG entered through the front door.
3. I don't believe he had to change hands to attack her with the knife. you immediately change the sides of attack when doing it from behind and from the front. There is evidence, her jacket being inside out, that coudl indicated that he had her from behind at first, and then somehow she got away from him. Then she'd probably be facing him. And she was most certainly facing him when he had her on the floor, raping her.
4. I don't believe he has to be superman or spiderman to get in that window. There are even photos of someone clumbing the wall to get up to the window. It's not impossible, even the judge in the MOT report literally said you do not not have to be spiderman to get in that window.
5. I'm not sold or know that it's a fact that RG left and then returned later. It's not necessary for him to do that in order to believe the defense.

I'll give you more when I return from smoking outside. But I was really hoping you had something a lot better for the defense.

 

[miley]

It helps the convicted murderers to move the time of death as early as possible. Knox and Sollecito have an alibi until about 8:40, when their phones simultaneusly switch off. There is activity on Raffaele's computer until about 9:10, but the complete absence of human interaction is evident. The movie runs out and nothing happens on the computer until 6 AM the following day - not even a cartoon. If the cartoon that is alleged to have been turned on at 9:26 per Sollecito's appeal really happened, there would be a computer record. Instead, the defense alleges that although there are computer records of 9:10 PM and 6 AM, the records for 9:26 PM mysteriously disappeared.

Meredith's friend testified that she got home just in time to watch a TV program. There is a call from Meredith's phone to her mom around 9. Are we to believe that Rudy nabbed Meredith at 8:47 PM and then she phoned her mom and let it ring for a while? In fact, isn't it assumed that Meredith called her mom after she separated from her friend a few minutes before 9 ... thus placing the time of death anytime between 9 PM and 12:10 AM when her father called?

The phone call between Sollecito and his father cannot be stretched as late as 8:49. They talked at 8:30ish.

bbm
Jovana Popovic knocked on Sollecito's door @ 8:40
Sollecito's father called at 8:42:56 (lasting 3 1/2 mins)


Meredith called mother 8:56

 

[SMK]

It helps the convicted murderers to move the time of death as early as possible. .

Well, the TOD was found to be around 9:30 because of the examination of stomach contents and digestion. It is what it is.