Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #7

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Let's see. We have, for example, high German and low German. High German is what is spoken by educated people and in professional situations, low German is a dialect and is not used in academic and formal situations (more commonly found in smaller towns and villages). A written example in English is where people write definite as "definate" or definitely as "definately". High German would look at the root word "finite" and expand on the concept or make compound words (Germans are notorious for their compound words). A spoken example in English is when people get their past/present/future tenses all screwed up like "I have came". That would be an example of how high German and low German is different. It's comparible to proper English and slang English. Should we assume that the interpreter was uneducated and using slang when speaking with Knox? Would that explain why the statements given by Knox at 1:45, 5:45 and a few hours later were all 100% written in English and consistent with each other? Would it have been better if it had been written in slang with the F-bomb interspersed in the same way that Knox spoke while describing Meredith immediately after her body was discovered?

I have no idea why we are discussing dialects, but I do want to point out that in English, at least, dialects may stem from geography instead of social class. An idiom isn't necessarily an error.

As for the cop who spoke English with Knox, I have never heard that dialect was an issue between them. But as I said above, we also have no information as to how well the cop spoke English. (I don't mention this to claim that AK didn't make the statement accusing PL; rather, the issue is how much stress AK encountered in understanding what was said to her and in making herself understood. We don't know, except that we know it was enough to make her change her story in 2 hours.)
 
People can die from this, this is a virus, especially children with suppressed immune systems.....it is NOT a game
 
You may want to research the viral nature of cold sores in the same way as researching coerced statement ... they aren't caused by eating seafood.

You can both research them. (ETA obviously Allusonz has.) Cold sores are cause by a virus, Herpes Simplex I. It has been around for a long time and was common among children when I was a kid, long before anyone had heard of the sexually transmitted kind.

Genital herpes, Simplex II (IIRC), is usually--but not necessarily--transferred through sexual contact. But it is one of the few STDs that actually can be caught on a toilet seat, though that is rare.

What Allison is talking about is what causes an outbreak once one as the virus. (I'm assuming she's talking about Simplex I.) Causes include fevers (hence, the slang term, "fever blister"), stress, sunshine and reactions to certain foods.
 
I also find it particularly funny to hear someone claim that they immediately assumed that Knox was guilty and then decided that she was innocent. What happened to the "innocent until proven guilty" rule and waiting to hear all of the evidence (the trial) before making a decision? If a decision is made so quickly, could it be based on hype and unrelated to logic, evidence, or trial proceedings?

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/41690770#41690770#41690770
 
I have no idea why we are discussing dialects, but I do want to point out that in English, at least, dialects may stem from geography instead of social class. An idiom isn't necessarily an error.

As for the cop who spoke English with Knox, I have never heard that dialect was an issue between them. But as I said above, we also have no information as to how well the cop spoke English. (I don't mention this to claim that AK didn't make the statement accusing PL; rather, the issue is how much stress AK encountered in understanding what was said to her and in making herself understood. We don't know, except that we know it was enough to make her change her story in 2 hours.)

It's both, isn't it? Region and economic status? The little missing girl Hailey (misty) ... that was quite the dialect they had!

Is Anna a police officer?

If the statement was incorrect, why did she sign it? If Knox was unable to understand her own statements, she should have asked for assistance ... speaking of which ... why didn't she alert the interpreter that she was being deprived of the necessities of life and abused for 14 hours?
 
So ... he's an expert in the US, or is he an expert in Italy?

Actually, John Douglas is world famous. But, yes, he is American and is best known for U.S. cases.

Perhaps you'll explain to me how DNA behaves differently in Italy...
 
Can we see that documentation please?

No defense lawyer is going miss a chance to challenge DNA results.

No U.S. court is going to tell a defendant he can't examine DNA results because the methodology is "proprietary." (That might fly in civil court, but never in criminal. There are ways of limiting who may view certain pieces without keeping the evidence from the defendant.)

(As always I have no doubt you read something on the subject in Nature. But your conclusion seems to run counter to U.S. criminal court tendencies and I'd like to see how you reached it.)

What documentation? The Nature article?

LNC DNA analysis is proprietary and patent protected.
There is no reason to believe the information will not be leaked.

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100317/full/464347a.html
 
Is there any reason to believe that the jury in Italy acted improperly? Has someone come forward claiming that jurors discussed the case with friends in order to arrive at a decision, or that they admitted making a decision based on what was written in the newspaper?

When a jury is not sequested in the US, is it assumed that their verdict was based on media publications? If so, it is difficult to believe that any trial can occur in the US without the jury being sequestered.

I don't know of any overt proof of juror misconduct. But then there is no way to read the minds of jurors, is there?

There's no question that ILE choose to pre-try this case in the press. Whether that affected jurors is something we may never know for sure. But to suggest it may have done so isn't to suggest Italian jurors are less capable than jurors anywhere else.

(ETA: IIRC, it was more than 10 years before the gross juror misconduct in the WM3 case came to light.)
 
You are misquoting her. She said she "saw him around a few times." That doesn't even tell us if she spoke with him, much less that she "met him." It is entirely consistent with her testimony that she didn't know him well or "much". In fact, "seeing someone around" in American English distinctly means not by design; i.e., AK did not intentionally meet with Rudy Guede. They were casually introduced at a party and she "saw him around" a small town.

Hardly a ripe candidate for an on-the-spot rape/murder conspiracy.

Knox is clear: she had no relationship with Rudy Guede. To my knowledge, there is no evidence to the contrary.

I guess the debate has been whether they met once, or a few times - per Amanda during trial testimony. People here argue that Rudy and Amanda met once. Amanda disagrees.
 
What documentation? The Nature article?

LNC DNA analysis is proprietary and patent protected.
There is no reason to believe the information will not be leaked.

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100317/full/464347a.html

How a DNA forensics results is NOT proprietary!!! PERIOD!!! They must be disclosed. They must disclose how they arrived at the results, what settings the machines were at, much like a math problem where you show your long hand results to get the answer

The software used might be but not the RESULTS and how those RESULTS were ARRIVED at
 
You don't think there's a bit of a problem with someone that locks the door and throws away the key while knowing that the person in the room is bleeding to death?

Hopefully future experts will say something that can be corroborated.



BBM: Yes, that would be nice. Either that or release AK and RS.
 
Any comment on the bigger picture? I've seen questions asking for the one point that tipped the scales ... but anyone that has followed the case knows that it was a circumstantial case supported by DNA evidence.

Rudy was one of the people that Amanda befriended when she arrived in Perugia. She later met Raffaele and quickly befriended him too. She also befriended one of the guys that lived in the downstairs flat. It's interesting to note that one thing all of Amanda's new friends had in common was illegal drug use. Chances are that if she were not roommates with Meredith, they would never have met - as Meredith was not drawn to her as a friend, they had different social circles, and did not attend the same school. For Amanda to get together with two guys that she had come to know while getting stoned in Perugia is nothing strange ... she had been in Perugia less than a month and they were her first friends (Meredith was distancing herself from Knox). Meredith and Knox both spoke English, but they had little else in common.

The two men met through Amanda. They most likely consumed drugs together ... since they all like drugs. They did not enter a conspiracy, but instead there is the possibility that Amanda decided to play a prank on Meredith (she was known to pull sick pranks on people when she lived in Seattle) and got Rudy and Raffaele on board. After letting Rudy and Raffaele in through the front door, it's possible they smoked some more, or drank some more, and then decided to have some fun with Meredith. Meredith was tired; having been out late celebrating Halloween the previous evening, and had borrowed a textbook to prepare for an exam. She had to return the textbook the following day. Meredith was probably in no mood for Amanda bringing men to the cottage. It was her home, not a party house for Knox to use while she lived with Raffaele. According to Rudy, Meredith, who had rent money in her room but had not yet given it to Filomina, confronted Amanda about missing money. We don't know if this is true. Something went wrong, whether it was a prank, or Meredith confronted Amanda (men visiting, noise, missing money???) which ultimately led to Meredith's assault and murder. The three then took Meredith's two cell phones and ran away. It looks as though Rudy ran home (the clamouring up the metal staircase while the other footsteps ran away), changed and then went clubbing, while Amanda and Raffaele probably smooched a bit, and then decided to return to the cottage and clean up the scene. There was reportedly no activity on Raffaele's computer at this time.

It looks as though they took the lamp from Amanda's room and put it on the floor to look for something. It was also discussed, long ago, that the blood pooling in Meredith was on her shoulder, yet she was found in a prone position covered with a duvet - suggesting that she was moved after she died. At some point, Amanda and Raffaele took the keys, locked the bedroom door, staged a break-in but ransacked the room before breaking the window (another oops), cleaned up and left.

When they realized they'd left the lamp in the room, they tried to break down the door but only cracked it. When Filomina and police arrived, Amanda was tossing between frantically running around the cottage looking for the boys (even though she first denied and then admitted that she knew they were away) or ways to get into Meredith's room and claiming that Meredith routinely locked her bedroom door so there was no reason to break the door. Police did not want to break the door because of liability issues. Filomina disagreed with Amanda and insisted that the door be broken, at which time everyone was huddled around the door except for Raffaele and Amanda ... who were in the kitchen ... while a friend of Filomina broke down the door to find Meredith on the floor with only one foot exposed under the duvet.

Occam's Razor comes to mind.
 
I don't know of any overt proof of juror misconduct. But then there is no way to read the minds of jurors, is there?

There's no question that ILE choose to pre-try this case in the press. Whether that affected jurors is something we may never know for sure. But to suggest it may have done so isn't to suggest Italian jurors are less capable than jurors anywhere else.

(ETA: IIRC, it was more than 10 years before the gross juror misconduct in the WM3 case came to light.)

Do we have to read the minds of jurors now to find out if they glanced at a newspaper and should be disqualified for jury duty ... in case they lie and try to get on the jury even though they've made up their minds? Is that the objection here ... that in case the jury was filled with people lying about their objectivity, then the verdict would be wrong?

The case was international news when it happened because it involved people from England, the Ivory Coast, Italy and the United States ... it was big news not because the something the Italians were doing irresponsibly, but because it involved people from four different countries. This was not about the United States (anti-Americanism remarks) or Knox, it was about four people from four different countries getting together one night ... three of them stoned out of their heads, and the forth cramming for an exam.
 
Does she have both (photos??)?

I did notice no one else, not even the little sisters, had anything like that ... which seems unusual for a family virus.

I only mentioned it to support my comment that Amanda was intimate with one of the guys downstairs. The cold sore is one more thing they have in common after that night.

:sigh: Family members may indeed have herpes, but that doesn't mean they will all have outbreaks at the same time, or even at all.

Do you have a signed declaration from Amanda Knox that she caught herpes from the guy downstairs? If so, I still wonder why it matters. If not, I'm really embarrassed for you that you even brought it up.
 
:sigh: Family members may indeed have herpes, but that doesn't mean they will all have outbreaks at the same time, or even at all.

Do you have a signed declaration from Amanda Knox that she caught herpes from the guy downstairs? If so, I still wonder why it matters. If not, I'm really embarrassed for you that you even brought it up.

I suspect that Amanda does not want to talk about her herpes, especially after her careless remarks and decisions the night she may have contracted the virus ... no wonder no one is happy sharing a cell with her - it's like a pox with an outbreak of facial sores now and then.
 
It's both, isn't it? Region and economic status? The little missing girl Hailey (misty) ... that was quite the dialect they had!

Is Anna a police officer?

If the statement was incorrect, why did she sign it? If Knox was unable to understand her own statements, she should have asked for assistance ... speaking of which ... why didn't she alert the interpreter that she was being deprived of the necessities of life and abused for 14 hours?

Yes, English dialects are based on geography, class and/or race (these categories often being interrelated).

AMANDA KNOX SIGNED THE TYPEWRITTEN STATEMENT BECAUSE SHE COULDN'T STAND THE BADGERING BY POLICE AND THOUGHT SIGNING WOULD SHUT THEM UP. SHE SIGNED THE SECOND STATEMENT FOR THE SAME REASON.


She wrote and signed the "gift statement" because she was trying to mitigate the accusations against PL by claiming her memory was "hazy" and "more unreal than real."
 
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BBM: Yes, that would be nice. Either that or release AK and RS.

Even biologists should read current literature before shooting off their mouths about standard practices.
 
I guess the debate has been whether they met once, or a few times - per Amanda during trial testimony. People here argue that Rudy and Amanda met once. Amanda disagrees.

You are still misquoting AK, as I pointed out quite carefully. Shall I assume you are doing so deliberately?
 
Yes, English dialects are based on geography, class and/or race (these categories often being interrelated).

AMANDA KNOX SIGNED THE TYPEWRITTEN STATEMENT BECAUSE SHE COULDN'T STAND THE BADGERING BY POLICE AND THOUGHT SIGNING WOULD SHUT THEM UP. SHE SIGNED THE SECOND STATEMENT FOR THE SAME REASON.


She wrote and signed the "gift statement" because she was trying to mitigate the accusations against PL by claiming her memory was "hazy" and "more unreal than real."

Wow ... you're yelling.

And ... the third voluntary "gift" statement?

She was "quantifying and negating" ... something like that ... but wasn't prepared to make a statement that she was full of rubbish and lied when she implicated Patrick? Neither she nor her mother were prepared to tell authorities that Amanda lied about Patrick murdering Meredith? When Edda was questioned about why she didn't report this obviously very important information, her explanation was that no one spoke English in Perugia.
 
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