Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox Conviction Overturned #22

[nonfictionrocks]

No, no, that is not what I asked for. I asked for a multi-offender sex game/murder with a woman directly involved in the murder, ring leader or not. Call it a game, call it whatever you want. When has it happened before?

Paul Bernardo/Karla Homolka, they killed 3 girls, one of which was Karla's little sister.

 

[nonfictionrocks]

Karla Homolka? But even there, if I recall correctly, there's some dispute whether she was actually the one murdering or not.

IMO, it would be a difficult feat to find anyone in Canada who felt that she was not as guilty as her husband. If you look up "deal with the devil" her picture is there

ETA: Other than Karla's loving family of course!

 

[Madeleine74]

Karla helped lure the women and helped drug them. AFAIK her monster husband, PB, did the actual murdering. But yes, they are both culpable.

As for AK, there is no evidence that places her at the crime scene in that murder room. None. Ditto RS.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

IMO, it would be a difficult feat to find anyone in Canada who felt that she was not as guilty as her husband. If you look up "deal with the devil" her picture is there

ETA: Other than Karla's loving family of course!

I'm researching that case now. A notable point is that the person with prior sexual offenses is Bernardo. He meets sociopath Karla and she then helps with further sexual assaults/murders, including the use of drugs/poison (which is one of my main points, that's how women normally kill, not stabbing.) Bernardo was the ring leader, it was his fantasy and she was feeding into it.

An interesting comparison, but not truly similar to the theory presented in the Knox case that she was the one who orchestrated this sexual assault and murder, and took part in stabbing Meredith while she was held down.

 

[nonfictionrocks]

Karla helped lure the women and helped drug them. AFAIK her monster husband, PB, did the actual murdering. But yes, they are both culpable.

As for AK, there is no evidence that places her at the crime scene in that murder room. None. Ditto RS.

I am sorry Madeleine, I didn't mean to lead you to believe I thought AK was guilty, I don't

 

[AnaTeresa]

I'm researching that case now. A notable point is that the person with prior sexual offenses is Bernardo. He meets sociopath Karla and she then helps with further sexual assaults/murders, including the use of drugs/poison (which is one of my main points, that's how women normally kill, not stabbing.) Bernardo was the ring leader, it was his fantasy and she was feeding into it.

An interesting comparison, but not truly similar to the theory presented in the Knox case that she was the one who orchestrated this sexual assault and murder, and took part in stabbing Meredith while she was held down.

That's where I was struggling to come up with anyone, and why I didn't think Karla exactly fit. I can't think of any sexually motivated partnership or ring where a female was the leader, outside of television/movies/books.

I'm also drawing a blank at many female on female sexually motivated murders, to be honest. The theory of Amanda as the leader doesn't really fit with the patterns of behavior for female murders, much less sexually motivated murderers, from what little I know.

 

[Madeleine74]

I am sorry Madeleine, I didn't mean to lead you to believe I thought AK was guilty, I don't

Oh I didn't think that, no worries. I just added that bit to continue the point you and others made that AK wasn't involved.

 

[SMK]

Karla Homolka? But even there, if I recall correctly, there's some dispute whether she was actually the one murdering or not.

Yes, I know the Homolka/Bernardo case, but Sollecito and Knox had only known eachother for 6 days, and were not fluent enough in each other's native language to share a paraphillia fixation, or act on it, in my opinion. And Guede did not know them, and he had his own history of crime. Somehow very different in the details...

 

[Cappuccino]

Homolka/Bernardo also didn't allow a third person into their sick little fantasy world, (other than as victims). Folie a deux is not unusual, but folie a trois is almost unheard of.

 

[SMK]

Homolka/Bernardo also didn't allow a third person into their sick little fantasy world, (other than as victims). Folie a deux is not unusual, but folie a trois is almost unheard of.

Right, Guede and his history are the biggest reasons to believe neither Knox or Sollecito, or indeed anyone else, were ever involved.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

Right, Guede and his history are the biggest reasons to believe neither Knox or Sollecito, or indeed anyone else, were ever involved.

It's so simple, yet got so complicated. Had they found Guede early on, before interrogating Amanda, none of this would have happened. A sad commentary on Italy. I used to want to visit there, have even thought about living there, but after this display, no thanks.

 

[Cappuccino]

Italy is no worse than America in this respect. Look how many convictions have been over turned in the US due to prosecutorial misconduct and/or police misconduct and inefficiency. The only difference is that it seems to take the American justice system longer than four years to correct a mistake.

Oh, and of course you don't get sentenced to death in Italy.

 

[Malkmus]

Well, that is what I said. He was there during her 2nd statement. It was a spontaneous one. No interrogation there. The first one was where she was interrogated (by the police). In both statements she accused her boss, Patrick. Again confirming her statements in an written 'gift' later at about 8am. So that is 3 times she accused him. Two spontaneous statements, and only once with interrogation. No wonder she was convicted for this.

Mignini came in the interrogation room about 3:30am, the second statement was timed at 5:45am. I'm going to go with Amanda's word that those two hours weren't spent with her simply wanting to repeat something. The police could not use her first statement, therefore they had to get a second one from her as a suspect.

As for her written note to police which is used as such a definitive accusation against Patrick, let's look at it one more time:

And I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrik, but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house.

Events that could have taken place? Events that are unreal? She's more certain that she stayed at her boyfriend's?

She also wrote:

Is there any other evidence condemning Patrik or any other person?

Who is the REAL murderer?

In regards to this "confession" that I made last night, I want to make clear that I'm very doubtful of the verity of my statements because they were made under the pressures of stress, shock and extreme exhaustion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570225/Transcript-of-Amanda-Knoxs-note.html

Are these the words of a criminal mastermind, or someone who's had their head royally messed with by law enforcement?

 

[SMK]

Too many people were willing to believe lurid slurs about Amanda Knox

She has become the victim of the tabloid media's desire for damaging sensation


[. . . ]Even Guede, who claims the four of them had been together that night, makes no claims of "sex games". He says he had been "making out" with Kercher, and came back from the loo to find that she had been killed. There is hard, grisly, forensic evidence refuting his ludicrous story. Yet nothing puts Sollecito and Knox in the room with him, apart from the newspaper reports that Guede would have seen during the fortnight that passed before his arrest in Germany.

Implicating Knox and Sollecito was surely a handy distraction for a guilty man. Guede's possible motive for lying seems astonishingly clear.

But why dwell too long on that, when a far more singular story can be kept alive, if only a motive for Knox can be confected? Happily, a motive now appears to have emerged. Knox, some people seem to want to believe, killed her flatmate, and inveigled two other men into helping her out, in order that she would be arrested, convicted, spend four years in prison, become a cause célèbre, be released on appeal, and, as the Daily Mail so charmingly put it, start "a new life as a professional martyr to injustice". Why not? The woman is capable of anything, after all. Or so the entire planet has been told.[. . . ]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/05/amanda-knox-making-of-she-devil?newsfeed=true

I particularly agree with the author here:

Now, naming an innocent party in an attempt to get yourself out of trouble is certainly a dreadful act, one for which got Knox three years in jail. However, if I had discovered the body of my murdered flatmate, then been badgered for hours by hostile police insisting they could prove I had been there, and wanting to know who was this Lumumba whom I'd texted "See you later" – well, I'm not certain I would have resisted the temptation to confirm what they wished to hear, then retract it hours later. Yet the world is full of people, it seems, who are convinced of their own ability to be scrupulously honest under all circumstances, and who condemn others for not being so.

 

[SMK]

It's so simple, yet got so complicated. Had they found Guede early on, before interrogating Amanda, none of this would have happened. A sad commentary on Italy. I used to want to visit there, have even thought about living there, but after this display, no thanks.

I would agree, and Knox and Sollecito ought to have been written off the case when Guede was arrested.

 

[celticthyme]

It is so difficult to understand how other countries deal with crime or the suspicion of crime, using how our country does it as a guide. We can not. Italy has it's own laws, archaic rules, and system of legal tangles. It does not apply to our justice system in any way. ( even if it made sense, which a lot of it does not.) Amanda had no rights under the circumstances, and they could interrogate, "investigate," and hold her indefinitely. Not only was she a foreigner, she did not know the language,and certainly knew nothing of their system of justice. She was in deep trouble way before anone even knew she needed help. Forcing her to sign statements, she likely did not even know she signed, because of duress and sleep deprivation, added to this problem.

Italy is such a beautiful country, and the many different regions each have their own beauty, kinds of people and personality, just like in the US. And compared to many other countries of the world, they are great people and generally like Americans. Umbria is absolutely stunning, with small villages, built into the hillside,with very simple living, simple and gracious people and absolute amazing vistas, food and wine. And except for the larger cities, it is safe to roam the streets any time of the day or night. The biggest problem are the pick pockets, gypsies and petty thieves who target tourists.

I have never thought Amanda was guilty,of anything much other than naivete and a lack of preparation for being in a strange country, but from the very beginning, I was very frightened for her.

 

[GreenTeam]

Here's an interesting article (opinion piece) you might want to check out:

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/10/my-thoughts-on-amanda-knox.php

 

[Malkmus]

As pointed out on JREF - Stephanie Kercher: Perhaps Maresca will be fired?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/8803239/Amanda-Knox-verdict-latest.html

More from that:

The prosecution will be appealing and we will be behind that and we may be taking another route.
If it is not those two, because they did say Rudy (Guede) was convicted on the basis there were two other people there, so if it is genuinely not them, obviously we don't want to see the wrong people put away, but we need to get the evidence of who it was or look at the evidence a bit more closely. We are just trying to find the truth.

It certainly sounds like they are no longer employing Maresca as their lawyer. It has been my belief that he alone has been their source of "official" information on this case, in which case it's easy to see why they are so mystified by the current acquittal. I don't think Maresca was completely open with them about the evidence in the first place.

 

[SMK]

More from that:



It certainly sounds like they are no longer employing Maresca as their lawyer. It has been my belief that he alone has been their source of "official" information on this case, in which case it's easy to see why they are so mystified by the current acquittal. I don't think Maresca was completely open with them about the evidence in the first place.

I don't think he was, either. What I am reading between the lines is, the Kerchers trust the courts, and now really doubt Knox or Sollecito were ever involved. So rhetorically they are asking, "Then, who? Surely we would not have been dragged through all this if it really had been Guede alone? Or would we?"

Do you agree?:waitasec:

 

[Intermezzo]

I am specifically referring to the interrogation which led to the Knox "confession." Mignini was present. He also signed her arrest warrant.

Mignini was convicted in a court in Florence Jan. 22, 2010 of official misconduct and illegal wiretaps in connection with the Monster of Florence case. The interrogation methods were seriously flawed in that case as well.

:waitasec: What is it with Mignini and sex game, satanic occult consiparcy theories???
With all the superstitious and old wives tales my Italian family believes in, this guy is over the top....:twocents:

Even before Amanda Knox Mignini would contrive these sex, occult conspiracy theories.

From what I remember, Mignini got involved with the Monster of Florence case while investigating the death of Dr Francesco Narducci in Perugia, who was found drowned in a lake.

Mignini prosecuted 21 people for being part of a satanic cult that murdered the doctor and that the doctor himself was part of this cult, that was responsible for the serial killings in Florence, but they had him killed and made it look like an accident or suicide.
He even accused Narducci's family of covering up the Dr's connection to the cult and swapped his body with another.

All 21 ended up being acquitted


What were the charges Giuliano Mignini was convicted for?
The court convicted Mignini for the following:

1.) Illegally investigating journalists who had criticized him with the "intent to harass or deter them from pursuing their legitimate profession". Specifically the court found that Mignini had targeted Italian journalists Vincenzo Tessandori, Gennaro De Stefano, and Roberto Fiasconaro, because they had criticized his investigations into the death of Narducci.

2.) Ordering an illegal investigation of the Florentine ex police chief Giuseppe De Donno.

3.) Ordering illegal investigations of two officials of the Viminale, the Ministry of the Interior in Rome, including an illegal investigation of the Roberto Sgalla, ex-director of the office of external affairs.


And did I recently read that Mignini thinks there is a conspiracy against him? starting with the Monster of Florence case