Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox Conviction Overturned #22

[Malkmus]

If I were called into a police station at 11:30 at night I would want a lawyer with me. But that still doesn't answer my question - did she ask for a lawyer before the incriminating PL story, or not? TIA

It appears from her testimony that she asked for one after the first signed statement. AT this point, she was a suspect, and legally obligated to have one.

AK: So, before they asked me to make further declarations--I really can't tell
you what time it was, I was lost after hours and hours of the same thing--but
at one point I asked if I shouldn't have a lawyer? I thought that, well, I
didn't know, but I've seen things like this on television. When people do things
like this they have lawyer. They told me, at least one of them told me that
it would be worse for me because it would prove that I didn't want to
collaborate with the police. So they told me no.

There was an interesting conversation on one of the other forums recently where an Italian poster (whom I've mentioned before) stated that in Italy when you are witness you are not obligated to have a lawyer, but you are also not allowed to leave the interrogation at your own will. Only once you are a suspect are you allowed a lawyer. I think if you consider this notion it's easy to see the game police can play with someone who doesn't want to tell them what they want to hear.

 

[Malkmus]

here were two prosecutors in charge of the case. Why is one held responsible for all of their decisions?

Oh I think Comodi is responsible for some pretty unethical things as well.

 

[otto]

It appears from her testimony that she asked for one after the first signed statement. AT this point, she was a suspect, and legally obligated to have one.



There was an interesting conversation on one of the other forums recently where an Italian poster (whom I've mentioned before) stated that in Italy when you are witness you are not obligated to have a lawyer, but you are also not allowed to leave the interrogation at your own will. Only once you are a suspect are you allowed a lawyer. I think if you consider this notion it's easy to see the game police can play with someone who doesn't want to tell them what they want to hear.

As a result, neither of her first two statements could be used against her. The statement that resulted in her conviction was the one she wrote by herself, labeled a "gift" and delivered to police.

 

[Malkmus]

Right. There are a gazillion posts in this thread thrashing the conclusions of judges like Matteini, Micheli, and Massei. Posters were told that relating to authority makes a weak argument. And now this? Understandable but extremely weak. Like I said, to me there is not much difference between the CA and this case. Very similar.

I think it's one thing to say you agree with the reasoning and logic of a particular judge versus the sweeping claims that the Italian justice system should just be trusted, which ran rampant through these threads before the appeals.

 

[otto]

Oh I think Comodi is responsible for some pretty unethical things as well.

Still, the conviction of Knox was based on arguments made by Patrick's lawyer, not the prosecutors. Is he unethical too?

 

[Steft50]

It appears from her testimony that she asked for one after the first signed statement. AT this point, she was a suspect, and legally obligated to have one.



There was an interesting conversation on one of the other forums recently where an Italian poster (whom I've mentioned before) stated that in Italy when you are witness you are not obligated to have a lawyer, but you are also not allowed to leave the interrogation at your own will. Only once you are a suspect are you allowed a lawyer. I think if you consider this notion it's easy to see the game police can play with someone who doesn't want to tell them what they want to hear.

What I got from that whole line of discussion was the police and/or prosecution decide when to make you a formal suspect and only after they make that declaration can you as a citizen or witness get a lawyer. So, again, I don't care what they call it in italy, to me that is a police state.

 

[Katana]

She wasn't called to the station at 11:30. Sollecito was asked to come in at 10 and answer a few questions. They arrived around 10:30. She tagged along. That's when she did the cartwheels and splits ... and was told to cut it out by the officers. Sollecito was proven to be a liar and admitted to police that during previous statements he had told police a "load of rubbish". He stated that he could not confirm that Knox was with him on the night of the murder. Since Knox was already at the police headquarters, they asked her to answer some questions as well. Within two hours, with a translator during the last hour, she accused Patrick. She didn't speak enough Italian to understand anything that was said in the first hour.

This case has been ongoing for four years. It's interesting that people have opinions about the verdict but aren't really familiar with the case.

It's not an easy case to get familiar with. There are bits and pieces all over the place and it's almost impossible to figure out what is fact in plain English. Much evidence is left for speculation. Are there transcripts to read or anything that can be used as complete fact?

 

[Footwarrior]

Like I said, she made the statements about Patrick as a witness and witnesses do not have lawyers while giving a statement to police.

Knox became a suspect after accusing Patrick. Questioning began at 11:30 PM and by 1:30 AM she had accusd Patrick. The questioning stopped. She was then asked to review and sign her statement at 1:45 AM (written in English). She was taken to a holding cell. She later demanded to be heard, so Mignini, the prosecutor on call, had to come to the police station in the middle of the night. She repeated her allegations against Patrick and was then asked to sign that statement at 5:30 AM. She was then returned to the holding cell. The following day, she asked for pen and paper and confirmed her statements against Patrick.

Those of us who have studied the case know that the 1:45 am statement was in Italian. The 5:45 am statement was handwritten in Italian by Mignini. There is zero evidence to support the claim that Knox demanded to make this statement. Knox's handwritten note in English written later that day expressed great doubt about the statements she had signed during the night.

 

[Murdock]

She wasn't called to the station at 11:30. Sollecito was asked to come in at 10 and answer a few questions. They arrived around 10:30. She tagged along. That's when she did the cartwheels and splits ... and was told to cut it out by the officers. Sollecito was proven to be a liar and admitted to police that during previous statements he had told police a "load of rubbish". He stated that he could not confirm that Knox was with him on the night of the murder. Since Knox was already at the police headquarters, they asked her to answer some questions as well. Within two hours, with a translator during the last hour, she accused Patrick. She didn't speak enough Italian to understand anything that was said in the first hour.

This case has been ongoing for four years. It's interesting that people have opinions about the verdict but aren't really familiar with the case.

Thank you for clearing that up for me. I think I read somewhere that she was called in at 11:30. It's sometimes hard to keep the rumors separate from the truth.

When did I say I had an opinion about the verdict? I had an opinion about whether or not she would be convicted of obstruction in another country. I said I didn't think she would be in the US, but admitted that I was unsure because I didn't know all the facts.

 

[Murdock]

It appears from her testimony that she asked for one after the first signed statement. AT this point, she was a suspect, and legally obligated to have one.

(snipped by me)

Thank you, Malkmus.

 

[Malkmus]

It's not an easy case to get familiar with. There are bits and pieces all over the place and it's almost impossible to figure out what is fact in plain English. Much evidence is left for speculation. Are there transcripts to read or anything that can be used as complete fact?

Amanda's handwritten letter to police a couple hours after the unrecorded interrogation where she signed statement typed up by police:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570225/Transcript-of-Amanda-Knoxs-note.html

Amanda's trial testimony from the first trial in 2009:

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=165&p=17377&hilit=luca#p17377

 

[Malkmus]

Thank you for clearing that up for me. I think I read somewhere that she was called in at 11:30. It's sometimes hard to keep the rumors separate from the truth.

When did I say I had an opinion about the verdict? I had an opinion about whether or not she would be convicted of obstruction in another country. I said I didn't think she would be in the US, but admitted that I was unsure because I didn't know all the facts.

She wasn't called in. Rafaelle was, and she tagged along. At 11pm she was questioned in the waiting room, and that questioning continued in another interrogation room sometime later.

 

[otto]

It's not an easy case to get familiar with. There are bits and pieces all over the place and it's almost impossible to figure out what is fact in plain English. Much evidence is left for speculation. Are there transcripts to read or anything that can be used as complete fact?

This is Knox's testimony.

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=80193

 

[JourneyRain]

I'm new to following this story as much as I am. I don't think I'd have time to go through all the threads but was Amanda really doing cartwheels?? Or is that just rumor.

 

[otto]

Those of us who have studied the case know that the 1:45 am statement was in Italian. The 5:45 am statement was handwritten in Italian by Mignini. There is zero evidence to support the claim that Knox demanded to make this statement. Knox's handwritten note in English written later that day expressed great doubt about the statements she had signed during the night.

They are in English. Malkmus posted them on this forum ages ago.

 

[otto]

I'm new to following this story as much as I am. I don't think I'd have time to go through all the threads but was Amanda really doing cartwheels?? Or is that just rumor.

She did cartwheels and the splits. She claims that the police asked her to do that. Police have stated that they told her to cut it out. Anne Bremner claims she was a restless teenager.

 

[otto]

It's not an easy case to get familiar with. There are bits and pieces all over the place and it's almost impossible to figure out what is fact in plain English. Much evidence is left for speculation. Are there transcripts to read or anything that can be used as complete fact?

It's a very difficult case to get up to speed on because of all the misinformation. Start with the transcripts, perhaps read the motivations reports and don't believe anything in the media unless it is repeated several times by different sources.

 

[Malkmus]

They are in English. Malkmus posted them on this forum ages ago.

Those were translations. The original statements were typed up in Italian. I have photocopies of the two statements showing the seal of the Perugian "Squadra Mobile" and the signatures.

 

[otto]

Those were translations. The original statements were typed up in Italian. I have photocopies of the two statements showing the seal of the Perugian "Squadra Mobile" and the signatures.

Thanks. I know you posted the English statements so I assumed that they were in English. Wasn't the English version signed by Knox? Didn't she have the translator with her from after one hour the questioning started (about 12:30 AM) until she signed the 5:45 statement?

 

[Malkmus]

Thanks. I know you posted the English statements so I assumed that they were in English. Wasn't the English version signed by Knox? Didn't she have the translator with her from after one hour the questioning started (about 12:30 AM) until she signed the 5:45 statement?

The documents she signed were in Italian. I just checked the photocopies.
The English translations are not official police documents.

I don't recall when Anna Donnino came into the interrogation, or if that's known even. I'd more or less assumed she was there the entire time.