Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox Conviction Overturned #22

[Malkmus]

Actually regarding the evidence, he said the prosecution case was "conjecture".

I would agree with that description of the Massei report as well.

Yes, I think it bears repeating the juror's full statements on what convinced him, not simply cherry-picking the least relevant aspect:

One of the jurors who overturned Amanda Knox's murder conviction has said he was never convinced by the "conjecture" of the prosecution's case and that he believed the US student and her co-defendant simply didn't kill her British roommate.

"I saw the faces of these two kids, and they couldn't bluff. They didn't bluff. My point of view is that these kids weren't guilty. They weren't there," he said.

Chialli said there were several elements of the prosecution's case that didn't convince him, primarily the lack of a motive and uncertainties about the precise time of Kercher's death.

"What didn't convince me was that in the end, it was an accusation based on so many conjectures," he said. "It could have been this way, it could have been another way."

Nice to see him refer to them as "kids". I remember posters on here being lectured a while back for calling them this, as it was some sort of American propaganda to do so...

I will add, that I share same the sentiments as the juror (or lay judge) for the reasons the prosecution's case is not convincing and why I think they are innocent. I have no problem with anything he said. So far we've heard much more on the reasoning form the jurors in the appeals than the first trial.

 

[Malkmus]

Obviously, there is disagreement about the evidence. Hellman isn't God.

When such disagreements exist, independent experts are brought in to cut through the bias being presented by each side. Sometimes I wish this thread had its own Conto and Vecchiotti.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Conto and Vecchiotti aren't gods neither.

 

[Malkmus]

Conto and Vecchiotti aren't gods neither.

I don't know why you keep bringing god into this. An impartial decision on the forensics in this case was a significant factor in the jury's decision. So was the unconvincing "conjecture of the prosecution".

 

[emyr]

Link below to yet another Sun article about the case. Scroll down where they talk about Kokomani parking his black golf car in the driveway of the cottage that night. And also that there are rumors he was doing a drug deal with Guede. Not that you can trust the Sun for accuracy.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...ut-the-fight-goes-on-for-Meredith-family.html

 

[SMK]

I know convicted felons that have passports and travel the world...don't know about EU felonies.

I know someone who is a registered sex offender and convicted felon in the UK. He holds a passport and travels.

 

[Malkmus]

Link below to yet another Sun article about the case. Scroll down where they talk about Kokomani parking his black golf car in the driveway of the cottage that night. And also that there are rumors he was doing a drug deal with Guede. Not that you can trust the Sun for accuracy.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...ut-the-fight-goes-on-for-Meredith-family.html

I'm still confused by the ISC ruling being regarded as such definitive proof that there were multiple attackers. As has been stated by people in the know on both sides of this debate, the ISC does not investigate the veracity of evidence in these cases, only if there was any procedural misconduct. That they merely recited what was determined by Massei is not indication that they looked into the matter and agree. Their findings on Rudy's case were simply that ILE did not violate his rights.

 

[SMK]

Nothing was overturned in Knox's accusations against Patrick. She is a convicted felon, sentenced to three years in jail and ordered to pay Patrick thousands of euros in compensation. As a convicted felon, her opportunities to travel anywhere will be severely restricted and she is no victim in terms of accusing Patrick Lumumba of rape and murder.

I know someone who is a registered sex offender and convicted felon in the UK. He holds a passport and travels. Also appears on radio and tv shows as expert on quantum physics.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I don't know why you keep bringing god into this.

Because people are appealing to these people as ultimate authorities. The point is nobody is unimpeachable.

An impartial decision on the forensics in this case was a significant factor in the jury's decision. So was the unconvincing "conjecture of the prosecution".

You can't say that the jury verdict proves those experts were impartial nor can you say it proves the prosecution relied on conjecture. Those claims need to be proved on their own merits. You're making circular arguments.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

No, but he is a seasoned and esteemed judge....

So is Massei.

 

[Malkmus]

Because people are appealing to these people as ultimate authorities. The point is nobody is unimpeachable.

Anyone can believe whichever side they want, prosecution or defense. I have no problem with that. But I see people believing in the defense's arguments, the independent experts reasoning, the judge's decision, the jury's decision, and FBI agents and DNA experts the world over who have chimed in - to be more evidence based arguments. Versus the prosecution's arguments and first judge's reasoning. The first trial, people siding with that ruling didn't talk a whole lot about the strength of the evidence, but much more so about the impossibility that the judge and jury would make a bad decision. If anything they were held to an infallible, god-like status.

Anyway, I agree with your point that no one is unimpeachable. Before the appeals, that was not the consensus.

You can't say that the jury verdict proves those experts were impartial nor can you say it proves the prosecution relied on conjecture. Those claims need to be proved on their own merits. You're making circular arguments.

I never said the jury verdict proves the independent experts were impartial. The independent experts are impartial by the very nature of their title. Not sure if you've looked much into the prosecution's arguments, but it was mostly conjecture.

 

[Malkmus]

So is Massei.

I found this quote from Yummi on PMF to mean that this judge and jury is of a higher standard than in the intitial trial. He seems to be quite the expert on Italian law.

A 2nd degree "regular" appeal has no limitation of that kind.
There is a larger (10 members) and usually more qualified (high-educated) jury and the president is a senior judge.

http://perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=157&p=14595&hilit=appeals+judge#p14595

 

[SMK]

So is Massei.

Hellman's another.:snooty:

 

[SMK]

I disagree with what the subtitle says. If Guede is a lone wolf killer, as much of the evidence points to, then it is justice that he was convicted and imprisoned (though not long enough) for what he did. Mignini and Maresca have led the Kerchers into confusion.

What justice for Meredith Kercher?

Amid the media circus, her family are denied even the icy comfort of a resolution.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...660484/What-justice-for-Meredith-Kercher.html

 

[SMK]

One of the experts on Perugia Murder File posted a stunning recant today, which is awesome in its humility and its modesty.

It was posted on JREF by Bruce Fiisher, and is well worth reading.

Link to it here:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=7654890#post7654890

 

[Malkmus]

Nice article about Raffaele:

His father said Raffaele's four years in jail showed he was more fragile, stay-at-home type than cruel killer. "He was terrified he would collapse psychologically from one moment to the next, so we tried to distract him," he said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/08/raffaele-solecito-amanda-knox?newsfeed=true

 

[Nova]

...unless Amanda was the one who called a *advertiser censored* company for work I don't see the reason for repeatedly holding this against her.

Amen! On the contrary, in the original article, the offer from a *advertiser censored* company was mentioned by AK's father as an example of UNwanted attention.

 

[Nova]

That's true. Knox not only accused an innocent man of rape and murder, but she was identified as the ringleader - which certainly placed more responsibility on her for the murder.

There was no such identification.

That was merely a sexist (and rather creepy) fantasy by a corrupt prosecutor.

Personally, I'd be ashamed to repeat it.

 

[Nova]

I think that Dr Sollecito certainly has the right idea about how to help his son. Sollecito is at home; not on some getaway with his family, he was not propped in front of TV cameras immediately after arriving home, he is protected from intrusion by the gated community, his father says that he is having it calm and he is readjusting to life. He is not being treated like some celebrity with offers from *advertiser censored* companies, or entertaining ways to profit from the murder of Meredith Kercher.

You do not know the Knoxes, you do not know where they are, you do not know the best way for their daughter to recover from years of false imprisonment. But I suspect you do know the offer from the *advertiser censored* company was neither solicited nor welcomed by the Knox family, so invoking it in repeated posts is, at the very least, dishonest.

 

[Nova]

It seems you are unaware of the fact that the Knox/Mellas family spent upwards of a million dollars on a PR campaign. They hired the PR company in November 2007, as soon as Knox's status was changed from witness to suspect, and that company controlled and managed the information that was available through the US media for the last four years. The influence was not restricted to the media, but also infiltrated discussion forums across the internet.

Judge Hellman: "If you are not familiar in detail with all the files, and in this case there was great amount, you cannot express an opinion."

http://qn.quotidiano.net/cronaca/2011/10/05/594591-rimarra_giallo_insoluto_solo_guede.shtml

The fact is that thanks to the internet, no single source was able to "control and manage" the info available on this case.