MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #3

[mooseandcoffee]

I am not aware of any studies correlating schools that have had zero tolerance with increased school safety. I have also not heard of any mass shootings in schools that had implemented zero tolerance. I might adjust my opinion if there is evidence of injuries or deaths by weapons, despite a zero tolerance policy.

My opinion favoring zero tolerance related to school safety only addresses one matter: preventing kids from being killed by weapons in school. It is a stop-gap action while they work towards finding and fixing the root causes.

Sadly, desperate times can require desperate measures.

jmo

Studies have shown that students of color are punished disproportionately for "zero tolerance" policies....especially for breaking the foggier types of rules such as "disrespect."

However, it looks as though the majority of school shootings such as the one that took place in Michigan were perpetrated by white students. That doesn't mean that zero tolerance won't prevent some, but it seems to hurt kids who aren't doing the majority of the crimes.

Mass shootings by shooter’s race in the U.S. 2021 | Statista

 

[steeltowngirl]

Studies have shown that students of color are punished disproportionately for "zero tolerance" policies....especially for breaking the foggier types of rules such as "disrespect."

However, it looks as though the majority of school shootings such as the one that took place in Michigan were perpetrated by white students. That doesn't mean that zero tolerance won't prevent some, but it seems to hurt kids who aren't doing the majority of the crimes.

Mass shootings by shooter’s race in the U.S. 2021 | Statista

I understand and respect the point that there are psychological consequences to students in schools where the extreme measure of zero tolerance of weapons and threats is implemented.

I would counter that it is not a punishment. It is a deterrent with one goal - keeping kids in schools alive and uninjured while on school property. Students should not have to fear for their lives to obtain education.

jmo

 

[borndem]

I think it’s more of how to get all the students through the one (maybe two) entrances in the morning before classes start? You would need a staggered class schedule.

Plus who is going to work the entrance with the metal detector? Hire someone? Heck, we can’t get a bond referendum passed for anything school related. Rotate teachers? Are we going to pay them more to do this? I doubt it.

Can you imagine the kick back from some of the voters who would think installing metal detectors would infringe on their children’s freedom? You’ve seen the result on trying to mandate students wearing a simple mask during a pandemic....
JMO

bbm
SMH -- You are so right about that, @MimosaMornings. I can hear it now -- "The very idea! My child having to pass through a metal detector like some criminal..." and all the rest. Until it happens at that school...
My main point what that I was surprised to see the cost of the detectors. I thought they would be much more than $2000 or so. But of course, when you multiply that times all of the schools in the city or county system, it does add up. Hmmm, dollars or lives?

 

[steeltowngirl]

bbm
SMH -- You are so right about that, @MimosaMornings. I can hear it now -- "The very idea! My child having to pass through a metal detector like some criminal..." and all the rest. Until it happens at that school...
My main point what that I was surprised to see the cost of the detectors. I thought they would be much more than $2000 or so. But of course, when you multiply that times all of the schools in the city or county system, it does add up. Hmmm, dollars or lives?

I would rather listen to parents hollering about metal detectors than watch parents bury their kids after a school shooting.

 

[borndem]

Most high schools in Oakland County have upwards of 1000 students; most average 1200-1300. Class size is generally 25-30 students.

Same here in my area WRT student body population and class size.
Would that be about average? Dunno.

 

[borndem]

I would rather listen to parents hollering about metal detectors than watch parents bury their kids after a school shooting.

Yes, yes, yes. SMH.

 

[borndem]

EC - an only child left home alone at age 8 or 9 so his parents could go party (how many years did that go on?!). Ignored. Unloved. Recipe for loneliness, depression, unhappiness, disaster. While I will never excuse or defend his actions, they are easier to understand. And as the trials proceed, we'll hopefully understand a whole lot more. Mass killers never happen in a vacuum. In this case, selfish, neglectful parents - this kid never had a chance.

.
My thoughts exactly. It's a very sad situation all the way around, but a bit of pity for him does not lessen the horror he exhibited in any way, IMO, and it doesn't call for any leniency for him at all. And we do need to include his parents, IMO, in this disaster.

Maybe it might help the next child in a bad situation -- I hope so.

 

[borndem]

article published 12/10/21 in New York Times,

“I just instinctually knew there was just absolutely no way I was not going to prosecute them when I heard all the evidence,” Ms. McDonald said in an interview.

In the Michigan School Shooting, the Prosecutor Asks, What About the Parents?

Thanks for putting that article in here, @dkryder.
What a woman!

 

[borndem]

School shootings in the US compared with the rest of the world - CNN

Damm.
But it comes as no surprise to me, sadly.

 

[Ruminations]

Hard to believe they are just now filtering internet access, I mean they do this in libraries all over the country, even for adults.

From your link:

• Gaggle software has been activated to help manage student online safety on school-provided accounts. This software manages all outgoing content from students and staff, and immediately flags any concerning images, links to websites and shared items from Google Drive for our technology safety and security team. The software allows the district to work with law enforcement to ensure any potential online emergencies are immediately addressed.

Yeah, but the kids have smart phones, and know how to get around geofencing.

I almost never use Snapchat, but I opened once years ago to see if I remembered my password. Up popped my 10th grader, and my first thought was that he was away from campus, since it is geofenced. (And this kid was not the type to skip out of school.) I sent him a message, asking where he was. “History.” Are you supposed to have your phone on like that? “No.” I asked how he is using Snapchat in school. No answer until he called me later, and said that he uses a free app to change his IP address, and “everybody on track does it.” He showed me that evening his Snapchat that evening, and there were a bunch of little avatars, presumably his teammates, dotting a map. He showed me how to spoof the IP address, although I don’t really remember, so more technical people could correct my language or fill in details.

A few days later, I was about to show a work friend what these little whipper-snappers with smartphones more powerful than my first PC do. I was humiliated to discover he blocked me. At home, I told him he is welcome to block me on a phone he buys himself (which he could well afford, having saved every cash gift his whole life). I held out my hand to take back the phone. In my mind I was predicting he was too stingy, but maybe he would call my bluff. I was already asking myself if I was going to make him get prepaid, or let him reimburse me for his fraction of the family plan. He unblocked me.

The next day, I found him on Snapchat again. For all I know, he blocked me again, because that was the last time I logged into it.

MOO and MOS (S is for story.)

 

[MoeInVA]

Yeah, but the kids have smart phones, and know how to get around geofencing.

I almost never use Snapchat, but I opened once years ago to see if I remembered my password. Up popped my 10th grader, and my first thought was that he was away from campus, since it is geofenced. (And this kid was not the type to skip out of school.) I sent him a message, asking where he was. “History.” Are you supposed to have your phone on like that? “No.” I asked how he is using Snapchat in school. No answer until he called me later, and said that he uses a free app to change his IP address, and “everybody on track does it.” He showed me that evening his Snapchat that evening, and there were a bunch of little avatars, presumably his teammates, dotting a map. He showed me how to spoof the IP address, although I don’t really remember, so more technical people could correct my language or fill in details.

A few days later, I was about to show a work friend what these little whipper-snappers with smartphones more powerful than my first PC do. I was humiliated to discover he blocked me. At home, I told him he is welcome to block me on a phone he buys himself (which he could well afford, having saved every cash gift his whole life). I held out my hand to take back the phone. In my mind I was predicting he was too stingy, but maybe he would call my bluff. I was already asking myself if I was going to make him get prepaid, or let him reimburse me for his fraction of the family plan. He unblocked me.

The next day, I found him on Snapchat again. For all I know, he blocked me again, because that was the last time I logged into it.

MOO and MOS (S is for story.)

Wow! The kids could definitely teach this sleuther a thing or two.

 

[Ruminations]

My son went to Ben Davis HS in Indy, about 3000 students. He took the bus in the morning and the buses would pull up to the doors with metal detectors, let the kids out, thru the detector, manned by resource officers, then off to the caff for free breakfast for all students. They had another separate door for students who walked, which were few, because of the location. It went fast but it was routine and he didn't hate it because he got a second breakfast.

Someone (forgive me, I've forgotten who) priced the metal detectors. Not a huge amount, at all. If the district can't afford them, there must be a way to ask for federal money or grants. Most districts could hold a bake sale or a craft sale and come up with it.

It just seems like it would be an easy preventative measure for schools. A gimme.

All MOO.

Craft sales and bake sales are great- if the school is populated with students whose parents either parent full time or have an easy way to take time off to visit the school.

A parent who walks her kid to school, than hops a bus to the train, the train to the city, walks a half mile is hardly going to be able to reverse that to stop by the school for an hour.

Also, in some districts, there are families who will be a little financially stressed to make chocolate chip cookies to donate plus give their kid a few bucks to buy what others made. That could cost the family maybe 6-12 dollars (on the higher side if they live in a food desert), which could be the amount they planned to spend on dinner for the family.

MOO

 

[Ruminations]

I think it is a sensible precaution to have teachers scanned into the building too. Mental illness respects no class or occupation.

Not to mention it reinforces that the scanning is not meant to humiliate the students. Especially in schools that might have staff of a different demographic than the students, which happens sometimes and certainly is not the fault of the staff. But it becomes important to make sure it doesn't feel like, or become, a micro repetition of problems greater society has to grapple with.

 

[rob525]

I think they got death threats but your probably right that the primary reason for running wasn't about death threats but more about trying to figure out what to do.

I thought they knew they were getting arrested because the DA announced that they had been charged and they were sopose to turn themselves in that Friday afternoon.

They skipped out on their court appearance.

I meant to say that, prior to the actual shooting incident, the parents probably figured that they would not get charged / arrested for anything.I rarely seems to happen.

 

[passionflower]

bbm
SMH -- You are so right about that, @MimosaMornings. I can hear it now -- "The very idea! My child having to pass through a metal detector like some criminal..." and all the rest. Until it happens at that school...
My main point what that I was surprised to see the cost of the detectors. I thought they would be much more than $2000 or so. But of course, when you multiply that times all of the schools in the city or county system, it does add up. Hmmm, dollars or lives?

Where I live all schools have metal detection and retired law enforcement. All my grandchildren felt safe and never thought about it. In college there were none and they worried. Thank goodness 4 are out of college but 1 more still in.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Suspected Oxford shooter, parents to appear for probable cause hearings this week (clickondetroit.com)

Ethan, James, Jennifer Crumbley each face several charges in Oxford High School shooting

PONTIAC, Mich. – The teen accused of opening fire at Oxford High School and his parents, all of them facing several charges, are set to appear in court this week for probable cause conferences.

The 15-year-old suspected shooter, Ethan Crumbley, accused of fatally shooting four fellow students and wounding seven other people, is being held at the Oakland County Jail alongside his parents James Crumbley, 45, and Jennifer Crumbley, 43.

The teen, a sophomore at the high school, is facing 24 charges in connection with the Nov. 30 mass shooting, including...

 

[lovesit]

My wonder is what are they telling him not to do? The shooting? Or as previous poster mentioned, did they discover him mentioning suicide in a journal and that was something that caused them to actually react? The fact they had previously been contacted about concerns that the school had and did not reply ( only to text their son "learn not to get caught"), refused to take him home from school etc. I remember a story about a parent either killing their daughters school rival or trying to arrange the killing a few years ago. Do we have some form of that situation here?

I’ve wondered if she was responding to a text he sent her saying he was going to do it. He was never going to kill Kim self, he lay the gun down as soon as they got to him.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Attorney Geoffrey Franz said the #OxfordHighSchool shooting survivors Riley and Bella Franz, 17 and 14, were honors students and athletes; Riley had been accepted into six colleges.

Their lives are priceless, but so are the lives of the students who have no athletic skills, don't earn high grades, struggle socially, and who won't be "succeeding" on the college path.

What are we telling the struggling children and teenagers when we portray the students lucky enough to have these gifts as having value because of their gifts?

Are we causing those who don't have these gifts to feel less important, less valued?
What happens when you create a society in which some people are valued more?

Some children/teens who act violently at school feel unseen, unvalued, untalented, a deep disconnect with peers. They have been given that message time and again - that they are less valuable.

How often did people tell and show E. he mattered, he was valuable? Did he feel like an important member of his family, his school, his community? Did he feel equal to others? No, he didn't, and he chose to harm others and throw his own life away just to be seen.

Which mentally struggling, socially marginalized, feeling unvalued student is going to make a horrible choice next?

How do we send them a message of validation and hope? Do we need to change some of our own values? Do we as a society actually value all of the children equally? Do we need to change our thinking and our words?

 

[Sillybilly]

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[Elley Mae]

The morning of the shooting, school officials met with Ethan Crumbley and his parents at the school after a teacher found a drawing of a gun, a bullet and a person who appeared to have been shot, along with messages stating, “My life is useless” and “The world is dead.”

Teen accused in Michigan high school shooting due in court

...

So sad that a 15 yr old thinks they are useless, must not have had a good home life.

Jmo

Absolutely not an excuse for murder.