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MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #3
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ChatteringBirds
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Quotes RSBM.
You are a compassionate person.
So you don't think his parents should be charged?
I can't understand people who have to have 2 horses but don't pay the mortgage to keep a roof over their child's head. Or have a troubled child but buy a gun. They had very bizarre priorities.
You are a compassionate person.
So you don't think his parents should be charged?
I can't understand people who have to have 2 horses but don't pay the mortgage to keep a roof over their child's head. Or have a troubled child but buy a gun. They had very bizarre priorities.
ContentHomebody
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Unfortunately have to go to a work location today (here shortly). But I found the YT live and have the YT channel on my Roku. I saved the video to "Watch Later" and then when I opened on Roku, I went to the folder and it was easy to click open instead of trying to search (which is time-consuming). I'm watching on my tv now. HTH
BetteDavisEyes
Fasten your seatbelts...
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Present. Watching.
ilovewings
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..IMO their priorities reflect their narcissistic personalities---
Kristin Esq.
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Witness Continued: Dectective is back up on the stand.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Exhibit 9 - audio recording with Pam Fine that was left for Jen. In that message, Ms. Fine discusses EC was seen looking at bullets during class time. She said guns may be a hobby and nothing wrong with that. She says you can call me back or otherwise have a great holiday. Per that voicemail, there is no request for Jen to call her back.
Prosecution Objection - the detective was there to explain how the information was gathered. Defense had to change the form of the question.
In the voicemail there was no request to do anything specific for their son.
Jen Texts: Seriously looking up bullets in school?? EC provides an answer to her about what he was looking up. He said it was harmless. Jen tells him about the voicemail. EC provides more explanation - it was a harmless act. Teachers give me no privacy. She told EC that she saved the voicemail. Jen said " you know you can talk to us, we won't judge you" This was on 11/30 at 12:38pm. EC says "Thank you and I love you."
The Dectective was not aware of what happened when EC came home. If there was more texts, he would have extracted them.
Exhibits 11 and 12: Instagram user exports of James and Jennifer. They showed the username, but not who they followed.
Exhibit 13: Photos that were taken from EC's IG account. Ethan.Crumbley. His other usernames: DaddyVadder and Ethan_Crumbley.
Exhibit 14: Jennifer and James followed the Ethan.Crumbley IG account. The other two accounts were not followed by James and Jen. He doesn't know if they were aware that EC used those usernames.
The photos posted in Exhibit 13 came from his Ethan.Crumbley account. The first few pictures also show comments. Jen and James never made comments on the photos. There's no way to tell that they saw the photos.
The white face photos were shared by Ethan. Jen and James didn't post comments on those photos. There's not proof they've been on his account other than the fact that they follow it.
The detective didn't print out any photos or items from he other two accounts.
It's not illegal to post photos of a gun, ghost like figures, or a bullet with target practice. He has seen a video of Jen at a gun range shooting a gun.
Exhibit 15: IG information.
Exhibit 16: Jen's IG photos. She posted pictures at a gun range, gun in a gun case, and a christmas tree. There's no comments between EC and her.
Exhibit 17: Video taken by EC. Video of him holding a gun. He could see a gun lock in the video. He couldn't tell if his parents were there or if EC was alone. It's not illegal to take a video of racking a gun or playing with a gun. It's also not illegal to take a photo like that and send it to a friend.
Exhibit 18: FB messages between the parents from Nov. 30. Jen says CALL NOW, EMERGENCY. She then texts James the photos of the math sheet before it was altered and after EC wrote more things on it. James said "My God, WTF." The two of them go back and forth about EC being distraught the night before. James and EC talked that morning. Jen said she was concerned and heading to the school. There is nothing in there to suggest that EC was going to shoot up the school.
When looking at texts between Jen and James between 9/13/2020 and they go through 11/30/2021. The Dectective has seen those messages. The most important information was those few texts about the emergency at the school. If there was a text or FB message saying that they believed their son would be a school shooter, the Detective would have testified to that.
Within those texts, they mention and discuss their son frequently.
Exhibit 19: A report that Jen and James had a 7 minute and 16 second call at 10:29am on 11/30. In addition to that phone call, there were other calls between the two that morning. They were in touch with each other by phone the morning of 11/30.
Exhibit 20: Door Dash Map.
Exhibit 21: From Jen's device, it appeared she searched clinical depression treatment options. He doesn't know for whom she was searching. If he had seen something like "homicial child" he would have brought the searches into the Court.
Exhibit 22: Pages of a text between EC and his mom. There's more texts between her and him besides the 3 pages of the exhibit. EC says that there is someone in the house, someone in the bathroom, but when I came out no one was home. The door just slammed. The Detective doesn't know if someone was in the house. Detective said that there were no calls between Jen and EC.
Exhibit 23: Messages between EC and his mom. The texts start with EC texting his mom that the house is haunted, he says he got videos and a picture of the demon. These were not found in his phone. EC says "I'm not joking, it f'd up the kitchen" but the Detective doesn't know if he was joking. Jen doesn't give any answer to these texts. There is nothing to corroborate EC's claims.
Ex. 24-27 are photos of horses. These were taken on one day when EC was trying to get a hold of his parents.
The pages from the texts admitted are the most important texts. If there were texts from EC that said he was going to blow up the school, the Detective would have brought them into the court.
Exhibit 28: Convo between James and Jennifer. These texts talking about something that happened the night before with EC. Asking how is he doing and what he needs to do to get his stuff back. The convo doesn't say that they think that their son is a danger to other people, or that EC would hurt anyone. If there was something like that, he would have brought it to the Court's attention.
Ex. 29: Messages admitted between EC and a friend of his regarding voices and going to a doctor. EC states that this time he is going to tell them about their voices. EC didn't identify "them" - whether it was his parents or the doctors. At the end, when EC he is mentally and physically dying - we don't know his mindset or the context as to what was going on at the time he typed that.
Ex. 30 and 31 were vidoes EC took on 8/19 and 8/20. They were in the text thread. We cannot see any faces of anyone in the videos. We can't see who was around.
Counsel is approaching the bench.
There was conversation between EC and his friend surrounding the videos. There was dicussion about inviting his friend to the gun range. The friend is saying things like "nice, now pull the trigger jk jk jk." EC responds about how his dad left the gun out, but he knows gun safety so it's no problem. "Now it's time to shoot up the school JK JK JK JK JK" The convo existed between EC and his friend, but there is no convo like this between EC and his parents.
EC and Friend talked about the bird head, hurting another girl at school. There's about 25,000 messages, about 5,000 pieces of paper. But Ethan and Brady talked about way more topics than things like the bird head and hurting the girl - like playing different video games, how much they eat versus how big their stool is, silly boy things, other students, homework. The Detective pulled out the most important information. It doesn't appear that the parents are grouped in the messages. That they are strictly between the two boys.
A topic EC and Brady talk about is hiding things from his parents. Like the bird head. Efforts he makes to wait for his parents to leave so he can do things and he doesn't get caught.
The parents were not aware of or told of a planned school shooting.
CROSS FOR JAMES
There were a lot of messages between James and his son. In reviewing messages, James was often with Ethan. No messages from EC to James asking for mental help.
With the messages between EC and friend, there was nothing in there that shows EC told his parents.
Exhibit 5: Recording of James calling 911. Reported that his gun was missing, ammunition was missing, his son was a student at Oxford, and he had some concern.
James texted EC after getting the math sheet. James checked in on EC. He didn't text him "Ethan are you the shooter" - he asked what was happening at the school. He called EC and then texted him again asking EC to call him. And then he called EC more, and then he called 911.
Detective saw phone calls and texts with and 858 phone number, which could have been Sargent O'Brien. Detective didn't see anything that James wasn't responding to phone calls.
Parents get phones for kids all the time and call it the kid's cell phone but its actually the parents. He's not aware of a time where a parent is held responsible for what the juvenile has done on the phone.
The text thread between EC and his mom about people in the house, was in March 2021. There's nothing more about the voices after that.
Ex 32 - Text between EC and friend. The firearm in the videos was no the firearm used on 11/30.
REDIRECT
This is a snapshot of the evidence of the full evidence. If it's there it's there, if it' not then it's not.
FB Message from Kira was not on Jen's phone because the user deleted the app.
IG Account: Jen and James follow Ethan.Crumbley. The pictures that were there had an uploaded IP address. There were 8 of them. There's a website who owns the IP addres (Verizon or tmobile) and 7 of the 8 was held by Tmobile and the other by Charter communications which was the internet provider. They all use TMobile.
Ex. 18: Portion of FB Messenger between the parents. The detective didn't take out any messages.
He went through all devices on the March dates. The photos of the parents on the horses were taken at the same time EC was texting his parent. No phone calls or messages between EC and either parent.
There's no reference about getting EC help - no therapist or a doctor.
The video said "look what my dad left out." There's a lot of discussion between EC and the friend about guns and wanting guns. As well as his mental state.
EC said that "They make me feel like I'm the problem" "my mom makes everyone like a piece of S." "I asked my dad to take me to the doctor, but he just gave me pills and told me to suck it up." "My mom laughed when I told her." They don't care about his mental health. I broke down, sobbing in the shower and then laughing. Google said that breakdowns can last weeks and cause hallucinations.
There's no communications between the parents to take people to the doctor.
EC: "I hear f'ing people, my life is f'd" - April 2021.
EC tracked his sleep for 5 days - 17 hours.
EC and his friend talk about video games. From the conversation - Do you want to get on and play games. It appeared that he was playing a lot of video games. Not just after school or before normal bedtime. All hours of the night 1am, 2am.
EC continues to his friend: I need help, I was thinking of calling 911 so I can go to the hospital but my parents would be pissed. His friend asked when did all the bad S happen. EC said 2 weeks ago.
Within 7 month there are texts regarding mental breakdown. The bird, 10/11/2021 - my mom almost found the bird head and it was fully exposed, but IDK how the f she didn't see it. My heart is pounding right now.
A bird head was recovered from the High School on 11/11/2021.
Jen to Ethan - text: "I love you." How many times the word love is brought up - objection, sustained.
EC and Jen and EC and James - no text messages about getting EC help, or getting him to a doctor.
Witness is stepping down.
Court is taking a break - 10 mins.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Exhibit 9 - audio recording with Pam Fine that was left for Jen. In that message, Ms. Fine discusses EC was seen looking at bullets during class time. She said guns may be a hobby and nothing wrong with that. She says you can call me back or otherwise have a great holiday. Per that voicemail, there is no request for Jen to call her back.
Prosecution Objection - the detective was there to explain how the information was gathered. Defense had to change the form of the question.
In the voicemail there was no request to do anything specific for their son.
Jen Texts: Seriously looking up bullets in school?? EC provides an answer to her about what he was looking up. He said it was harmless. Jen tells him about the voicemail. EC provides more explanation - it was a harmless act. Teachers give me no privacy. She told EC that she saved the voicemail. Jen said " you know you can talk to us, we won't judge you" This was on 11/30 at 12:38pm. EC says "Thank you and I love you."
The Dectective was not aware of what happened when EC came home. If there was more texts, he would have extracted them.
Exhibits 11 and 12: Instagram user exports of James and Jennifer. They showed the username, but not who they followed.
Exhibit 13: Photos that were taken from EC's IG account. Ethan.Crumbley. His other usernames: DaddyVadder and Ethan_Crumbley.
Exhibit 14: Jennifer and James followed the Ethan.Crumbley IG account. The other two accounts were not followed by James and Jen. He doesn't know if they were aware that EC used those usernames.
The photos posted in Exhibit 13 came from his Ethan.Crumbley account. The first few pictures also show comments. Jen and James never made comments on the photos. There's no way to tell that they saw the photos.
The white face photos were shared by Ethan. Jen and James didn't post comments on those photos. There's not proof they've been on his account other than the fact that they follow it.
The detective didn't print out any photos or items from he other two accounts.
It's not illegal to post photos of a gun, ghost like figures, or a bullet with target practice. He has seen a video of Jen at a gun range shooting a gun.
Exhibit 15: IG information.
Exhibit 16: Jen's IG photos. She posted pictures at a gun range, gun in a gun case, and a christmas tree. There's no comments between EC and her.
Exhibit 17: Video taken by EC. Video of him holding a gun. He could see a gun lock in the video. He couldn't tell if his parents were there or if EC was alone. It's not illegal to take a video of racking a gun or playing with a gun. It's also not illegal to take a photo like that and send it to a friend.
Exhibit 18: FB messages between the parents from Nov. 30. Jen says CALL NOW, EMERGENCY. She then texts James the photos of the math sheet before it was altered and after EC wrote more things on it. James said "My God, WTF." The two of them go back and forth about EC being distraught the night before. James and EC talked that morning. Jen said she was concerned and heading to the school. There is nothing in there to suggest that EC was going to shoot up the school.
When looking at texts between Jen and James between 9/13/2020 and they go through 11/30/2021. The Dectective has seen those messages. The most important information was those few texts about the emergency at the school. If there was a text or FB message saying that they believed their son would be a school shooter, the Detective would have testified to that.
Within those texts, they mention and discuss their son frequently.
Exhibit 19: A report that Jen and James had a 7 minute and 16 second call at 10:29am on 11/30. In addition to that phone call, there were other calls between the two that morning. They were in touch with each other by phone the morning of 11/30.
Exhibit 20: Door Dash Map.
Exhibit 21: From Jen's device, it appeared she searched clinical depression treatment options. He doesn't know for whom she was searching. If he had seen something like "homicial child" he would have brought the searches into the Court.
Exhibit 22: Pages of a text between EC and his mom. There's more texts between her and him besides the 3 pages of the exhibit. EC says that there is someone in the house, someone in the bathroom, but when I came out no one was home. The door just slammed. The Detective doesn't know if someone was in the house. Detective said that there were no calls between Jen and EC.
Exhibit 23: Messages between EC and his mom. The texts start with EC texting his mom that the house is haunted, he says he got videos and a picture of the demon. These were not found in his phone. EC says "I'm not joking, it f'd up the kitchen" but the Detective doesn't know if he was joking. Jen doesn't give any answer to these texts. There is nothing to corroborate EC's claims.
Ex. 24-27 are photos of horses. These were taken on one day when EC was trying to get a hold of his parents.
The pages from the texts admitted are the most important texts. If there were texts from EC that said he was going to blow up the school, the Detective would have brought them into the court.
Exhibit 28: Convo between James and Jennifer. These texts talking about something that happened the night before with EC. Asking how is he doing and what he needs to do to get his stuff back. The convo doesn't say that they think that their son is a danger to other people, or that EC would hurt anyone. If there was something like that, he would have brought it to the Court's attention.
Ex. 29: Messages admitted between EC and a friend of his regarding voices and going to a doctor. EC states that this time he is going to tell them about their voices. EC didn't identify "them" - whether it was his parents or the doctors. At the end, when EC he is mentally and physically dying - we don't know his mindset or the context as to what was going on at the time he typed that.
Ex. 30 and 31 were vidoes EC took on 8/19 and 8/20. They were in the text thread. We cannot see any faces of anyone in the videos. We can't see who was around.
Counsel is approaching the bench.
There was conversation between EC and his friend surrounding the videos. There was dicussion about inviting his friend to the gun range. The friend is saying things like "nice, now pull the trigger jk jk jk." EC responds about how his dad left the gun out, but he knows gun safety so it's no problem. "Now it's time to shoot up the school JK JK JK JK JK" The convo existed between EC and his friend, but there is no convo like this between EC and his parents.
EC and Friend talked about the bird head, hurting another girl at school. There's about 25,000 messages, about 5,000 pieces of paper. But Ethan and Brady talked about way more topics than things like the bird head and hurting the girl - like playing different video games, how much they eat versus how big their stool is, silly boy things, other students, homework. The Detective pulled out the most important information. It doesn't appear that the parents are grouped in the messages. That they are strictly between the two boys.
A topic EC and Brady talk about is hiding things from his parents. Like the bird head. Efforts he makes to wait for his parents to leave so he can do things and he doesn't get caught.
The parents were not aware of or told of a planned school shooting.
CROSS FOR JAMES
There were a lot of messages between James and his son. In reviewing messages, James was often with Ethan. No messages from EC to James asking for mental help.
With the messages between EC and friend, there was nothing in there that shows EC told his parents.
Exhibit 5: Recording of James calling 911. Reported that his gun was missing, ammunition was missing, his son was a student at Oxford, and he had some concern.
James texted EC after getting the math sheet. James checked in on EC. He didn't text him "Ethan are you the shooter" - he asked what was happening at the school. He called EC and then texted him again asking EC to call him. And then he called EC more, and then he called 911.
Detective saw phone calls and texts with and 858 phone number, which could have been Sargent O'Brien. Detective didn't see anything that James wasn't responding to phone calls.
Parents get phones for kids all the time and call it the kid's cell phone but its actually the parents. He's not aware of a time where a parent is held responsible for what the juvenile has done on the phone.
The text thread between EC and his mom about people in the house, was in March 2021. There's nothing more about the voices after that.
Ex 32 - Text between EC and friend. The firearm in the videos was no the firearm used on 11/30.
REDIRECT
This is a snapshot of the evidence of the full evidence. If it's there it's there, if it' not then it's not.
FB Message from Kira was not on Jen's phone because the user deleted the app.
IG Account: Jen and James follow Ethan.Crumbley. The pictures that were there had an uploaded IP address. There were 8 of them. There's a website who owns the IP addres (Verizon or tmobile) and 7 of the 8 was held by Tmobile and the other by Charter communications which was the internet provider. They all use TMobile.
Ex. 18: Portion of FB Messenger between the parents. The detective didn't take out any messages.
He went through all devices on the March dates. The photos of the parents on the horses were taken at the same time EC was texting his parent. No phone calls or messages between EC and either parent.
There's no reference about getting EC help - no therapist or a doctor.
The video said "look what my dad left out." There's a lot of discussion between EC and the friend about guns and wanting guns. As well as his mental state.
EC said that "They make me feel like I'm the problem" "my mom makes everyone like a piece of S." "I asked my dad to take me to the doctor, but he just gave me pills and told me to suck it up." "My mom laughed when I told her." They don't care about his mental health. I broke down, sobbing in the shower and then laughing. Google said that breakdowns can last weeks and cause hallucinations.
There's no communications between the parents to take people to the doctor.
EC: "I hear f'ing people, my life is f'd" - April 2021.
EC tracked his sleep for 5 days - 17 hours.
EC and his friend talk about video games. From the conversation - Do you want to get on and play games. It appeared that he was playing a lot of video games. Not just after school or before normal bedtime. All hours of the night 1am, 2am.
EC continues to his friend: I need help, I was thinking of calling 911 so I can go to the hospital but my parents would be pissed. His friend asked when did all the bad S happen. EC said 2 weeks ago.
Within 7 month there are texts regarding mental breakdown. The bird, 10/11/2021 - my mom almost found the bird head and it was fully exposed, but IDK how the f she didn't see it. My heart is pounding right now.
A bird head was recovered from the High School on 11/11/2021.
Jen to Ethan - text: "I love you." How many times the word love is brought up - objection, sustained.
EC and Jen and EC and James - no text messages about getting EC help, or getting him to a doctor.
Witness is stepping down.
Court is taking a break - 10 mins.
Kristin Esq.
Verified Attorney
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WITNESS: Ms. Cammy Back
Works at a business that sells firearms and ammunition. She's been there 1 year and 3 months. She's the office manager. Sometimes she conducts the sales. She's conducted more than 20 sales - it's the regular course of business.
Process to buy a handgun: make copies of drivers license, the 4473 form - info of the customer (address, DOB), and the nix check - run it through the ATF/FBI. Running the form electronically - it is a background check. Trigger lock statement states that the gun that is purchased comes with the lock. They also give a pamphlet (Exhibit 79) - youth handgun safety guide. It's given to every purchaser of a handgun.
The photograph of the pamphlet is Ex. 33.
The store also has notices - Youth Handgun Safety and Don't Lie For the other Guy. It's posted behind the register.
Exhibit 34 is a photo of the notice posted at the store.
Exhibit 35 - Youth notice posted in the store - also behind the register.
Sales reciepts are kept.
Ex. 36 - Sales receipt for James Crumbley 11/26/2021. He bought a Sig Sauer pistol. Sp2022 is the model number. It's a 9mm handgun.
The pistol comes in a case. A gray color case with the pistol and extra clips if it comes with extras. A cable lock - that locks the pistol. Policy is to give for every single purchase and one was given to James.
She does recall making the actual transaction with James.
He'd been in the store before prior to 11/26.
James said he wanted to purchase the gun as he's had his eye on it before. He's purchased guns from them before. His background check didn't come straight through. James said that he could go home and they could give him a call. James wound up staying. He was with someone, not an adult. She hadn't seen that person before. At the time she didn't know who he was.
He paid with credit card. The counter person gave him the item and they left the store.
Ex. 37: 4473 Firearms Transaction Record form. One of the boxes that he fills out is that he is acknowledging that it's illegal to buy a gun for someone else.
Ex 38 - Trigger Lock Statement. The gun comes with the trigger lock or the case lock for the firearm. Store policy to provide to all purchases. It's in the case in a plastic bag.
Case doesn't have a locking mechanism.
CROSS FOR JAMES
He's made multiple purchases. There was 2 purchases. It may be over a period of 5 months. It was over some time, witness can't be sure how long.
She spoke with LE after 11/30. She didn't have any reason to believe that he was purchasing the gun for someone else. Had he said that, she couldn't have sold the fire arm.
Ex. 33/79 - the pamphlet. In the notice, it says it's unlawful for a minor to possess a handgun. 18 USC 922 (x)
(x)(3) - this subsection doesn't apply to...
(a) a temporary transfer to a juvenile with conditions of when it can occur.
(i) Target practice or a course of instruction for safe and lawful use of a handgun.
A minor cannot register a handgun. To her knowledge, James didn't transfer possession or registration to a minor.
It wouldn't be illegal for EC to use the gun at a shooting range.
Pistol purchase record. This is what they use to register a firearm. It has to be done in so many days. And to her knowledge, it was done.
REDIRECT
She follows all the regulations to the ATF. She can only testify as to the transaction on 11/26.
If James asked EC if that was the gun he wanted, she wouldn't have sold it.
Works at a business that sells firearms and ammunition. She's been there 1 year and 3 months. She's the office manager. Sometimes she conducts the sales. She's conducted more than 20 sales - it's the regular course of business.
Process to buy a handgun: make copies of drivers license, the 4473 form - info of the customer (address, DOB), and the nix check - run it through the ATF/FBI. Running the form electronically - it is a background check. Trigger lock statement states that the gun that is purchased comes with the lock. They also give a pamphlet (Exhibit 79) - youth handgun safety guide. It's given to every purchaser of a handgun.
The photograph of the pamphlet is Ex. 33.
The store also has notices - Youth Handgun Safety and Don't Lie For the other Guy. It's posted behind the register.
Exhibit 34 is a photo of the notice posted at the store.
Exhibit 35 - Youth notice posted in the store - also behind the register.
Sales reciepts are kept.
Ex. 36 - Sales receipt for James Crumbley 11/26/2021. He bought a Sig Sauer pistol. Sp2022 is the model number. It's a 9mm handgun.
The pistol comes in a case. A gray color case with the pistol and extra clips if it comes with extras. A cable lock - that locks the pistol. Policy is to give for every single purchase and one was given to James.
She does recall making the actual transaction with James.
He'd been in the store before prior to 11/26.
James said he wanted to purchase the gun as he's had his eye on it before. He's purchased guns from them before. His background check didn't come straight through. James said that he could go home and they could give him a call. James wound up staying. He was with someone, not an adult. She hadn't seen that person before. At the time she didn't know who he was.
He paid with credit card. The counter person gave him the item and they left the store.
Ex. 37: 4473 Firearms Transaction Record form. One of the boxes that he fills out is that he is acknowledging that it's illegal to buy a gun for someone else.
Ex 38 - Trigger Lock Statement. The gun comes with the trigger lock or the case lock for the firearm. Store policy to provide to all purchases. It's in the case in a plastic bag.
Case doesn't have a locking mechanism.
CROSS FOR JAMES
He's made multiple purchases. There was 2 purchases. It may be over a period of 5 months. It was over some time, witness can't be sure how long.
She spoke with LE after 11/30. She didn't have any reason to believe that he was purchasing the gun for someone else. Had he said that, she couldn't have sold the fire arm.
Ex. 33/79 - the pamphlet. In the notice, it says it's unlawful for a minor to possess a handgun. 18 USC 922 (x)
(x)(3) - this subsection doesn't apply to...
(a) a temporary transfer to a juvenile with conditions of when it can occur.
(i) Target practice or a course of instruction for safe and lawful use of a handgun.
A minor cannot register a handgun. To her knowledge, James didn't transfer possession or registration to a minor.
It wouldn't be illegal for EC to use the gun at a shooting range.
Pistol purchase record. This is what they use to register a firearm. It has to be done in so many days. And to her knowledge, it was done.
REDIRECT
She follows all the regulations to the ATF. She can only testify as to the transaction on 11/26.
If James asked EC if that was the gun he wanted, she wouldn't have sold it.
kaen
Trying to be a good human.
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Been listening to the school counselor. Distressing to see that the counselor asked the the Class Dean if they had a disciplinary issue that required that he go home. It seems that the school did not say he had to leave.
I am sick to my stomach. This could have been prevented on this day.
Cross is creating a narrative that the school counselor and dean didn't ask to see the backpack or journal. He stated that Ethan needed help immediately but definitely in 48 hours. JMHO-- Therefore, it is plausible that his parents would not know if he was a danger to self or others. School has so much to answer for.
From Live stream: James, Jennifer Crumbley appear for 2nd day of preliminary exam in Oxford case
I am sick to my stomach. This could have been prevented on this day.
Cross is creating a narrative that the school counselor and dean didn't ask to see the backpack or journal. He stated that Ethan needed help immediately but definitely in 48 hours. JMHO-- Therefore, it is plausible that his parents would not know if he was a danger to self or others. School has so much to answer for.
From Live stream: James, Jennifer Crumbley appear for 2nd day of preliminary exam in Oxford case
Last edited:
Kristin Esq.
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WITNESS: Shawn Hopkins
He is a counselor. He works at Oxford HS. He's worked there since 2015. He was a youth pastor prior to that, from 2009.
Masters in Counseling.
He averages 400 students. Social emotional wellbeing, transition into high school, scheduling. There's approx 1800 students within the building. There are 4 counselors that has a general caseload, and 1 counselor that has a early college caseload.
He general gets to meet every student one time.
He also has general meetings, general checkins, covered classrooms, educational development plans, presentations for parents.
Generally he'll become more involvd about the social emotional wellbeing, or need additional support that is beyond the classroom environment. He doesn't have anything to do with discipline.
Last Year - they started in person, but then went virtual for 7 weeks. Attendance was sporadic.
He knows Ethan. Came on his caseload in Fall 2020. He only met him freshman year when they did scheduling. Which was done by zoom.
After Freshman year, he received an email from a teacher that he seemed sad, his Spanish teacher. This was early November. He did a check. Said "I heard you may be having a rough time, I'm here if you need to talk." EC said okay.
On 11/29 - email to Dean of Students forwarded to him from an English teacher stating that the student was looking at bullets in class. He was called down to the office to be social emotional support for EC. It was approx. at 9am. The meeting was about 5 minutes. Ec was compliant, calm, understanding. EC said claimed he understand that it wasn't school appropriate behavior. EC was not argumentative or oppositional.
EC said the previous weekend they went to a shooting range, and it was a hobby. He was reseraching his hobby.
EC's attendance was good, no behavior incidents at school.
As result of the meeting, someone called home and lef a voicemail. EC was allowed to go back to th class. There was no necessary follow up after the meeting.
He has no knowledge of an IEP, issues at home, no reports of him being bullied.
11/30 - he received an email from a co-teacher in the english class that he was looking at a shooting video on his phone. This was sent at 8:30am and he saw it at 8:50am. Class periods changed, and he was in his math class. That is when the drawings were done on the math assignment. The Dean came to him to let him know that he had been shown a picture of the math assignment. He then went to the classroom to get him out to have a meeting with him.
There wasn't much of a demeanor at the time. Took EC and the math assignment back to the office where the Dean of Students was waiting.
They first talked about the email that he recieved. About the video to ask what it was. EC said it was of a video game.
He had concern about the student because it was a couple of messages in a couple of days. The purpose of the meeting was to determine the next steps. Mr. Hopkins wanted to make sure EC was okay.
At first EC was compliant and understanding. With the video, it was a video game stating that he had an interest in making video games after HS.
Then he presented the math, and said that it was a video game drawing. It was the hard copy that had been doctored. (Exhibit 8)
He asked him to explain some words "My life is useless" - he asked what does this mean, it doesn't sound like a video game.
His demenor changed. He became sad. He started pausing more at his speech. Then he described things that happened in his life - a family dog had died, he lost a grandparent, covid was difficult for him being out of school, a friend who had left/moved, and an argument about grades with his parents.
He determined there was enough suicidal ideation that he called Jen. He saw the original in an email and saw it about 20 minutes after the doctored one.
Suicidal Ideation - thougths, patterns, behaviors, negative self talk - things associated with suicidal.
Active would contain a plan, a method, a date, action statements.
He did a risk assessment.
He has more frequently encountered more students that were suicidal. He's had three students make attempts.
The checkins are becoming more common. Minimal it's happenign once or twice a month in a normal school year. He does end up calling parents. When the student is a minor, when there are concerns that there needs to be follow up mental health support, is when he calls parents.
He called Jen. EC told him mom would be easier to get a hold of. EC was muted about calling a parent. He didn't object or ask him not to. Mr. H left a voicemail with mom. She did call back. Mr. H did speak to mom, and EC was in the room.
The phone was on speaker. Jen said that she wanted to talk to EC to ask what was going on. EC said I don't know. SH said that he was concerned about EC. SH sent a photo of the second version to Jen. SH asked her to come to school. Jen stated that she was at work and she would call dad. SH said that he tried to call dad but couldn't get a hold of him. Jen said that she couldn't get a hold of James, and that she would come but it would be a half hour. His impression was that she hoped that dad would go.
Dad and Mom showed up to school. It was around 10:30am. EC was with SH. They had further conversations about after HS plans.
Risk Assessment was prior to calling mom:
Asked if he was a threat to himself or others. EC said " I know this looks bad, I'm not going to do anything."
The pictures were a video game, but when he asked about the words, EC displayed the saddness.
12-15 times a year he has to call parents in about mental health.
SH got them from the counseling office lobby. The meeting was EC, SH, and the parents. The Dean also came.
When the parents walked into the room, it was different. The parents weren't friendly or showing care to the son. They didn't greet him, didn't touch him, didn't touch him.
Jen sat in the seat further away, James sat next to EC.
SH said that he had concerns about suicidal ideaation and EC's well being. The parents didn't ask what this what. They didn't ask any questions at all.
SH provided a list of resources for mental health. SH said he needs someone to talk to for mental health support. SH said it should happen ASAP, if today. Mom said today isn't possible, we have to return to work. Doesn't remember James said anything, and didn't object to what mom said.
In other meetings, parents have never arrived to the school and not taken the student home. When the parents said they wouldn't take him to get therapy that day, SH said that it needed to happen within 48 hours. They seemed compliant.
SH's concern was that EC wasn't alone. EC was generally sad. The demanor didn't shift.
The meeting was less than 15 minutes.
SH doesn't remember Jen saying anything to his son. James said "you have people you can talk to, you have your counselor, you have your journal."
The meeting ended aburptly. Mom said "Are we done?" EC wanted to go to class. Parents said virtual learning was difficult for EC. The Dean said there wasn't a disciplinary reason that EC couldn't return to class.
SH wrote him a pass to class and said "I just want you to know that I care about you." EC didn't respond.
EC never cried. No one hugged him, no one touched him.
SH made sure he was markd present for his classes, to make sure he wasn't alone.
If the event hadn't occured, SH was going to follow up with EC to make su there was follow up with mental health support.
CROSS FOR JEN
SH did meet with the prosecutor, but wasn't instructed to not talk about anything. He wasn't told to avoid any topics, he wasn't told any answers that were important to him to give.
11/29: The email was from Jacqueline Covina (Sp?) regarding EC looking at bullets. Pam Fine led he meeting. Restorative proactices is what she does. Anti-bullying coordinator, helps students resolve conflict.
A request call back not being asked wasn't unusal because it wasn't a discipline issue.
He didn't call the parents when EC was sad about the dog dying.
SH didn't ask to see the video.
SH was notified of the email regarding the video and the math assignment within 10 mins of each other.
The items on the surface do not necessitate discipline.
Phone policy is class by class. The conversation about the bullets was because it wasn't school appropriate behavior.
The suicide assessment is a series of questions to gain information from the student. The questions come through training - his Masters. There are specific questions that are asked.
The question that must be asked "Are you a threat to yourself or others." EC said no and SH took the answer as true. SH is aware that teenagers can lie. SH doesn't know if the answer he's getting is true.
EC, when asked about his statements, went into his reasons for being sad. Video game design doesn't explain the sad thoughts.
SH told the parents that he believed EC was a threat to himself, despite EC's statement. SH didn't provde an option to keep in EC school. SH recommended EC get help ASAP, today if possible.
SH could have stated that EC had to leave.
Dean of students brought backpack to SH's office. EC didn't request the backpack. The backpack was retrieved because classes were changing.
SH wasn't aware there was a journal in the bag.
SH didn't make an effort to see what was in his backpack.
SH is a mandatory reporter. In the case of neglict, he alerts CPS within a certain amount of time. He did not allege that parents weren't getting him proper medical attention. He didn't file anything with CPS.
BREAK for Lunch until 1:15pm.
He is a counselor. He works at Oxford HS. He's worked there since 2015. He was a youth pastor prior to that, from 2009.
Masters in Counseling.
He averages 400 students. Social emotional wellbeing, transition into high school, scheduling. There's approx 1800 students within the building. There are 4 counselors that has a general caseload, and 1 counselor that has a early college caseload.
He general gets to meet every student one time.
He also has general meetings, general checkins, covered classrooms, educational development plans, presentations for parents.
Generally he'll become more involvd about the social emotional wellbeing, or need additional support that is beyond the classroom environment. He doesn't have anything to do with discipline.
Last Year - they started in person, but then went virtual for 7 weeks. Attendance was sporadic.
He knows Ethan. Came on his caseload in Fall 2020. He only met him freshman year when they did scheduling. Which was done by zoom.
After Freshman year, he received an email from a teacher that he seemed sad, his Spanish teacher. This was early November. He did a check. Said "I heard you may be having a rough time, I'm here if you need to talk." EC said okay.
On 11/29 - email to Dean of Students forwarded to him from an English teacher stating that the student was looking at bullets in class. He was called down to the office to be social emotional support for EC. It was approx. at 9am. The meeting was about 5 minutes. Ec was compliant, calm, understanding. EC said claimed he understand that it wasn't school appropriate behavior. EC was not argumentative or oppositional.
EC said the previous weekend they went to a shooting range, and it was a hobby. He was reseraching his hobby.
EC's attendance was good, no behavior incidents at school.
As result of the meeting, someone called home and lef a voicemail. EC was allowed to go back to th class. There was no necessary follow up after the meeting.
He has no knowledge of an IEP, issues at home, no reports of him being bullied.
11/30 - he received an email from a co-teacher in the english class that he was looking at a shooting video on his phone. This was sent at 8:30am and he saw it at 8:50am. Class periods changed, and he was in his math class. That is when the drawings were done on the math assignment. The Dean came to him to let him know that he had been shown a picture of the math assignment. He then went to the classroom to get him out to have a meeting with him.
There wasn't much of a demeanor at the time. Took EC and the math assignment back to the office where the Dean of Students was waiting.
They first talked about the email that he recieved. About the video to ask what it was. EC said it was of a video game.
He had concern about the student because it was a couple of messages in a couple of days. The purpose of the meeting was to determine the next steps. Mr. Hopkins wanted to make sure EC was okay.
At first EC was compliant and understanding. With the video, it was a video game stating that he had an interest in making video games after HS.
Then he presented the math, and said that it was a video game drawing. It was the hard copy that had been doctored. (Exhibit 8)
He asked him to explain some words "My life is useless" - he asked what does this mean, it doesn't sound like a video game.
His demenor changed. He became sad. He started pausing more at his speech. Then he described things that happened in his life - a family dog had died, he lost a grandparent, covid was difficult for him being out of school, a friend who had left/moved, and an argument about grades with his parents.
He determined there was enough suicidal ideation that he called Jen. He saw the original in an email and saw it about 20 minutes after the doctored one.
Suicidal Ideation - thougths, patterns, behaviors, negative self talk - things associated with suicidal.
Active would contain a plan, a method, a date, action statements.
He did a risk assessment.
He has more frequently encountered more students that were suicidal. He's had three students make attempts.
The checkins are becoming more common. Minimal it's happenign once or twice a month in a normal school year. He does end up calling parents. When the student is a minor, when there are concerns that there needs to be follow up mental health support, is when he calls parents.
He called Jen. EC told him mom would be easier to get a hold of. EC was muted about calling a parent. He didn't object or ask him not to. Mr. H left a voicemail with mom. She did call back. Mr. H did speak to mom, and EC was in the room.
The phone was on speaker. Jen said that she wanted to talk to EC to ask what was going on. EC said I don't know. SH said that he was concerned about EC. SH sent a photo of the second version to Jen. SH asked her to come to school. Jen stated that she was at work and she would call dad. SH said that he tried to call dad but couldn't get a hold of him. Jen said that she couldn't get a hold of James, and that she would come but it would be a half hour. His impression was that she hoped that dad would go.
Dad and Mom showed up to school. It was around 10:30am. EC was with SH. They had further conversations about after HS plans.
Risk Assessment was prior to calling mom:
Asked if he was a threat to himself or others. EC said " I know this looks bad, I'm not going to do anything."
The pictures were a video game, but when he asked about the words, EC displayed the saddness.
12-15 times a year he has to call parents in about mental health.
SH got them from the counseling office lobby. The meeting was EC, SH, and the parents. The Dean also came.
When the parents walked into the room, it was different. The parents weren't friendly or showing care to the son. They didn't greet him, didn't touch him, didn't touch him.
Jen sat in the seat further away, James sat next to EC.
SH said that he had concerns about suicidal ideaation and EC's well being. The parents didn't ask what this what. They didn't ask any questions at all.
SH provided a list of resources for mental health. SH said he needs someone to talk to for mental health support. SH said it should happen ASAP, if today. Mom said today isn't possible, we have to return to work. Doesn't remember James said anything, and didn't object to what mom said.
In other meetings, parents have never arrived to the school and not taken the student home. When the parents said they wouldn't take him to get therapy that day, SH said that it needed to happen within 48 hours. They seemed compliant.
SH's concern was that EC wasn't alone. EC was generally sad. The demanor didn't shift.
The meeting was less than 15 minutes.
SH doesn't remember Jen saying anything to his son. James said "you have people you can talk to, you have your counselor, you have your journal."
The meeting ended aburptly. Mom said "Are we done?" EC wanted to go to class. Parents said virtual learning was difficult for EC. The Dean said there wasn't a disciplinary reason that EC couldn't return to class.
SH wrote him a pass to class and said "I just want you to know that I care about you." EC didn't respond.
EC never cried. No one hugged him, no one touched him.
SH made sure he was markd present for his classes, to make sure he wasn't alone.
If the event hadn't occured, SH was going to follow up with EC to make su there was follow up with mental health support.
CROSS FOR JEN
SH did meet with the prosecutor, but wasn't instructed to not talk about anything. He wasn't told to avoid any topics, he wasn't told any answers that were important to him to give.
11/29: The email was from Jacqueline Covina (Sp?) regarding EC looking at bullets. Pam Fine led he meeting. Restorative proactices is what she does. Anti-bullying coordinator, helps students resolve conflict.
A request call back not being asked wasn't unusal because it wasn't a discipline issue.
He didn't call the parents when EC was sad about the dog dying.
SH didn't ask to see the video.
SH was notified of the email regarding the video and the math assignment within 10 mins of each other.
The items on the surface do not necessitate discipline.
Phone policy is class by class. The conversation about the bullets was because it wasn't school appropriate behavior.
The suicide assessment is a series of questions to gain information from the student. The questions come through training - his Masters. There are specific questions that are asked.
The question that must be asked "Are you a threat to yourself or others." EC said no and SH took the answer as true. SH is aware that teenagers can lie. SH doesn't know if the answer he's getting is true.
EC, when asked about his statements, went into his reasons for being sad. Video game design doesn't explain the sad thoughts.
SH told the parents that he believed EC was a threat to himself, despite EC's statement. SH didn't provde an option to keep in EC school. SH recommended EC get help ASAP, today if possible.
SH could have stated that EC had to leave.
Dean of students brought backpack to SH's office. EC didn't request the backpack. The backpack was retrieved because classes were changing.
SH wasn't aware there was a journal in the bag.
SH didn't make an effort to see what was in his backpack.
SH is a mandatory reporter. In the case of neglict, he alerts CPS within a certain amount of time. He did not allege that parents weren't getting him proper medical attention. He didn't file anything with CPS.
BREAK for Lunch until 1:15pm.
Kristin Esq.
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So I know the prosecutors will probably address this on redirect, but it irks me that defense is implying that the counselor should have looked into his backpack. The parents should have looked! The parents should have hugged him!
moo.
moo.
kaen
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I think they are implying that if a trained counselor didn't know or wasn't concerned about a threat to others that the parents could not reasonably be expected to know. JMHO.
The last bit about being a mandated reporter is important because it says the counselor did not assess the parent behavior as negligent or abusive.
I am in this field with the same level of training. The school's response is underwhelming. There are formal threat assessments that can be used. The school counselor has related the allowing him to stay to a discipline issue, which does not have to be the case.
Don't get me wrong. I believe the parents are negligent. I have had ongoing concerns about the school. This hearing is not making me think that the school did what they could have.
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Kristin Esq.
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Your background is helpful.
Coming from a parent, and not someone with your background, I feel like EC's parents knew that he had access to the gun, so they had a different knowledge then the trained counselor. Especially with the counselor saying that he was concerned about EC harming himself. moo.
While I do think you are likely right, I hope that while protecting society (including in the prison world) from him, every attempt is made to make him whole.
kaen
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I agree with everything that his parents knew. In theory, the argument would be that he did not have the gun and was equally safe at school. I think that was the thinking of the school. The counselor worried about self harm. The school could have sent him home and required that he be seen and gotten a document that said he was not at risk for self harm. IF he thought he was at risk, he could have called EMS for an ER transport. A trained counselor can do more than he did.
The assessment he did was underwhelming. If this child had committed self harm at the school, I think they would have been negligent. He had the opportunity to leave the campus or hide out and harm in a bathroom, closet, etc. as they were not supervising him moment by moment. If he had left with his parents, they would have had eyes on him rather than the school.
Kristin Esq.
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Thank you for your insight. I'm not aware of all that a counselor could do. His testimony to me felt like he was trying. I didn't realize that it was that underwhelming!
kaen
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True. He was trying and is probably a nice guy who cares deeply about his students.
I think that school counseling in the advent of Covid and with the struggles that kids have today is darn hard. I see it and experience it. I would never forgive myself if a student was displaying what this teen was and harmed himself or others and I didn't act. I fear they were frustrated with how long it took the parents to get there. I fear the school personnel was getting the message that these parents didn't want to take him and they deferred thinking he was safer there then at home by himself. No one asked if he had thought of harming others beyond the first question. With suicide ideation, you might not ask questions such as do you have a plan. But they, in theory, would send him home that afternoon unsupervised, knowing that he would have access to firearms in his home. I just know that he could have done more.
I wonder if there was a social worker or psychologist who worked with this school. One of those professionals is a go to in my school when you have a case like this. I think this guy and his dean were out of their depth.
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borndem
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Whew! Thanks much, much, much, @Kristin Esq., for giving us the "transcript" of the court proceedings -- what a job! Your fingers must be little nubs by now after all that typing...
And the testimony is just about as nutz , sad and alarming as I expected, but there was more that knocked me over. Maddening and sad -- no winners here. Still SMH.
Again, thanks!
And the testimony is just about as nutz , sad and alarming as I expected, but there was more that knocked me over. Maddening and sad -- no winners here. Still SMH.
Again, thanks!
Kristin Esq.
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I remember there being a pscyhologist in my school when I was in high school (Ancient years ago!)
Your analysis has me questioning whether the parents will actually be bound over for trial.
EDITED: Maybe not necessarily not having the parents bound over, but definitely gives weight to all the lawsuits agains the school.
BetteDavisEyes
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Accused Oxford shooter sad, troubled ahead of rampage, counselor says (detroitnews.com)
Rochester Hills — Hours before he allegedly carried out a deadly shooting rampage at Oxford High School, a "sad" Ethan Crumbley confided in a school counselor that his family dog had died, he'd lost a grandparent, his friend moved away and the COVID-19 pandemic had been "tough for him."
The 15-year-old's alleged admissions were detailed Thursday by Oxford High counselor Shawn Hopkins who testified during a preliminary examination for the teen's parents that he called Ethan down to the office to talk about the distressing drawing he allegedly made on a math paper that at one point depicted a gun and a dead body...
Rochester Hills — Hours before he allegedly carried out a deadly shooting rampage at Oxford High School, a "sad" Ethan Crumbley confided in a school counselor that his family dog had died, he'd lost a grandparent, his friend moved away and the COVID-19 pandemic had been "tough for him."
The 15-year-old's alleged admissions were detailed Thursday by Oxford High counselor Shawn Hopkins who testified during a preliminary examination for the teen's parents that he called Ethan down to the office to talk about the distressing drawing he allegedly made on a math paper that at one point depicted a gun and a dead body...
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