Kristin Esq.
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The people are resting. There was something about a motion. I couldn't understand either. I rewound on youtube so I could try to hear.
MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #3
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The people are resting. There was something about a motion. I couldn't understand either. I rewound on youtube so I could try to hear.
BetteDavisEyes
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Subscriber article, so you might not be able to read in its entirety.
Marijuana operation uncovered in basement of Crumbley home (detroitnews.com)
Rochester Hills — The parents of the accused Oxford High School shooter had an unsecured "marijuana grow operation" in their basement, Oakland County prosecutors said Thursday.
The revelation came during testimony from Oakland County Sheriff's Office Sgt. Matthew Peschke, who was among the authorities searching the couple's house following the Nov. 30 rampage.
Peschke told Assistant Oakland County Prosecutor Marc Keast during a preliminary hearing for James and Jennifer Crumbley that he discovered "draped down plastic" in the basement as well as marijuana plants.
Defense attorneys for Jennifer and James Crumbley objected Thursday to the assertion...
Marijuana operation uncovered in basement of Crumbley home (detroitnews.com)
Rochester Hills — The parents of the accused Oxford High School shooter had an unsecured "marijuana grow operation" in their basement, Oakland County prosecutors said Thursday.
The revelation came during testimony from Oakland County Sheriff's Office Sgt. Matthew Peschke, who was among the authorities searching the couple's house following the Nov. 30 rampage.
Peschke told Assistant Oakland County Prosecutor Marc Keast during a preliminary hearing for James and Jennifer Crumbley that he discovered "draped down plastic" in the basement as well as marijuana plants.
Defense attorneys for Jennifer and James Crumbley objected Thursday to the assertion...
Kristin Esq.
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Prosecution Closing:
Starting with the four people that were killed.
Prosecutor is going over the evidence. Texts that EC sent his mom with no response - about someone being in the house.
The most chilling from the words of their son, the day before, "I have zero help in my mental problems.... my parents won't listen to him."
According to texts, he told his dad he needed help. His dad told him to suck it up.
He's 15 years old, and nothing on the walls except for 2 targets. His mother bragged about it on the IG post. "Did you show them a picture of YOUR gun."
They knew he knew how to use the gun, they knew he was isolated.
3-4 times a week at 2-3 hours at a time at the stable. EC didn't want to be at the stable. He wasn't with his parents.
You can say they are great horse owners, but you can't say that they were with Ethan.
His one friend was taken away in Oct. and taken to some treatment.
Jennifer said that her son was weird and not normal. On the morning of the 30th, hours before shooting, they received the math worksheet. The gun picture was identical to the gun that was purchased. Words like "The thoughts won't stop." "Help me." "Blood everywhere."
James knew about the journal.
Through the use of oridinary care, they would have uncovered:
- if they looked at the journal, they would have seen every page referenced the school shooting
- the first victim has to be a pretty girl so she can suffer like me
- my parents don't listen to me
My dad told me to suck it up, my mom thinks I'm on drugs, she laughed at me - when EC told them about his mental health.
Look at their actions: Jennifer knew before it was news who the shooter was. She texted her son "Ethan, don't do it." James, upon learning of the shooting, went to his house and looked for his gun. he didn't go where the other parents went to look for his son.
The defendants could have done something to prevent it. They didn't take him home, they didn't take him to get help. Jennifer's employer didn't say that she HAD to come back to work. It wasn't a situation where she would have been fired. Door Dash Driver - hours are optional. The fact that they looked at SH in front of their son and said they wouldn't get him help that day. They didn't go home to look for the gun after the meeting, they didn't make the gun in accessible to EC.
They could have asked him where the gun was, they could have looked in the backpack, they could have looked at the journal, they could have looked at the phone.
It's time for them to face a jury of their peers.
DEFENSE CLOSING
There's no question people in the community want to hold someone responsible. The person who is responsibe will be held accountable.
Just because it was a tragedy doesn't mean that the law expands.
They didn't know that EC would commit a school shooting.
They didn't owe any legal duty to any student at the HS. Just because it sounds good that things that could have been done to change the day, doesn't mean that they had a duty.
The Jury instruction reads that it's about what the Defendants knew. They had to know that he was going to commit a school shooting. There were no messages that Jennifer was given information that her son was going to commit a school shooting. There's no evidence that she saw the journal.
The prosecution cannot prove that they knew there would be a school shooting.
At the end of the day the law doesn't care about what kind of parents they were, just whether or not they knew that their son was going to commit these murders. They would have been horrified if they believed their would have been murders.
Even SH was afraif that EC was sucidal and not homicidal. So when Jennifer texted EC later that day, it makes sense that she would believe she was stopping a potential suicide.
There's nothing to expect that a child that spends 3-4 hours alone at home, that the child would commit a school shooting
Prosecution can't meet their burden.
DEFENSE FOR JAMES
Parents aren't mind readers.
It's not that they should have known, but that they actually knew. There's not evidence that either parent KNEW that EC was going to commit a school shooting.
Using the "should have" standard goes well beyond what is allowed today.
Prosecution testified about what EC told other people, not what he told James and Jennifer. No evidence that either parent had a duty to any student. This duty does not exist.
No evidence that James knew that Ethan was a danger to anyone, including the students.
We can't get past that to get to ordinary care, that James and Jennifer knew. They only knew that EC was a danger to himself after Shawn Hopkins told them. And after SH told them of his concerns, they agreed to get EC counseling.
We cannot impute knowledge to them, without showing that they had knowledge.
Without evidence that the parents had actual knowledge, the prosecution is merely speculating.
With their should have argument, prosecution is conceding that the parents didn't have knowledge.
REBUTTAL
This case is not built on speculation.
1. Whether or not there's a legal duty. Manslaughter based - a parent has a duty to affirmative duty to safeguard a third party of their children.
Not once did I argue what they should have known. What I said was the use of ordinary care would uncover. I don't have to prove that they had actual knowledge. I have to prove foreseeability - that's the law.
No one else was in a position to know that the gun was purchased as a christmas present, he was disturbed, he had hallucinations, that he lost his friend. They took a disturb mentally challenege and possible ill kid, and what did they do? They didn't ake him to a doctor, or take him home, embrace him, tell him they love him. They bought him a deadly weapon. And at the moment when they had the opportunity when they were concerned, they didn't even say we got him a gun, and they refer to it as his gun.
When a parent learns of a school shooter, and before the name is public, and the parent texts "don't do it" there is foreseeability. James knew it was foreseeable when he checked for the gun at the house.
James and Jennifer were indifferent. They just didn't care. Just one thing, one action could have prevented it.
If there was any question about who cared about him, it was settled that day. His parents didn't greet him or touch him. No one cared about him.
I agree you're allowed to be a terrible parent. And if that's all this was, I wouldn't be here.
Starting with the four people that were killed.
Prosecutor is going over the evidence. Texts that EC sent his mom with no response - about someone being in the house.
The most chilling from the words of their son, the day before, "I have zero help in my mental problems.... my parents won't listen to him."
According to texts, he told his dad he needed help. His dad told him to suck it up.
He's 15 years old, and nothing on the walls except for 2 targets. His mother bragged about it on the IG post. "Did you show them a picture of YOUR gun."
They knew he knew how to use the gun, they knew he was isolated.
3-4 times a week at 2-3 hours at a time at the stable. EC didn't want to be at the stable. He wasn't with his parents.
You can say they are great horse owners, but you can't say that they were with Ethan.
His one friend was taken away in Oct. and taken to some treatment.
Jennifer said that her son was weird and not normal. On the morning of the 30th, hours before shooting, they received the math worksheet. The gun picture was identical to the gun that was purchased. Words like "The thoughts won't stop." "Help me." "Blood everywhere."
James knew about the journal.
Through the use of oridinary care, they would have uncovered:
- if they looked at the journal, they would have seen every page referenced the school shooting
- the first victim has to be a pretty girl so she can suffer like me
- my parents don't listen to me
My dad told me to suck it up, my mom thinks I'm on drugs, she laughed at me - when EC told them about his mental health.
Look at their actions: Jennifer knew before it was news who the shooter was. She texted her son "Ethan, don't do it." James, upon learning of the shooting, went to his house and looked for his gun. he didn't go where the other parents went to look for his son.
The defendants could have done something to prevent it. They didn't take him home, they didn't take him to get help. Jennifer's employer didn't say that she HAD to come back to work. It wasn't a situation where she would have been fired. Door Dash Driver - hours are optional. The fact that they looked at SH in front of their son and said they wouldn't get him help that day. They didn't go home to look for the gun after the meeting, they didn't make the gun in accessible to EC.
They could have asked him where the gun was, they could have looked in the backpack, they could have looked at the journal, they could have looked at the phone.
It's time for them to face a jury of their peers.
DEFENSE CLOSING
There's no question people in the community want to hold someone responsible. The person who is responsibe will be held accountable.
Just because it was a tragedy doesn't mean that the law expands.
They didn't know that EC would commit a school shooting.
They didn't owe any legal duty to any student at the HS. Just because it sounds good that things that could have been done to change the day, doesn't mean that they had a duty.
The Jury instruction reads that it's about what the Defendants knew. They had to know that he was going to commit a school shooting. There were no messages that Jennifer was given information that her son was going to commit a school shooting. There's no evidence that she saw the journal.
The prosecution cannot prove that they knew there would be a school shooting.
At the end of the day the law doesn't care about what kind of parents they were, just whether or not they knew that their son was going to commit these murders. They would have been horrified if they believed their would have been murders.
Even SH was afraif that EC was sucidal and not homicidal. So when Jennifer texted EC later that day, it makes sense that she would believe she was stopping a potential suicide.
There's nothing to expect that a child that spends 3-4 hours alone at home, that the child would commit a school shooting
Prosecution can't meet their burden.
DEFENSE FOR JAMES
Parents aren't mind readers.
It's not that they should have known, but that they actually knew. There's not evidence that either parent KNEW that EC was going to commit a school shooting.
Using the "should have" standard goes well beyond what is allowed today.
Prosecution testified about what EC told other people, not what he told James and Jennifer. No evidence that either parent had a duty to any student. This duty does not exist.
No evidence that James knew that Ethan was a danger to anyone, including the students.
We can't get past that to get to ordinary care, that James and Jennifer knew. They only knew that EC was a danger to himself after Shawn Hopkins told them. And after SH told them of his concerns, they agreed to get EC counseling.
We cannot impute knowledge to them, without showing that they had knowledge.
Without evidence that the parents had actual knowledge, the prosecution is merely speculating.
With their should have argument, prosecution is conceding that the parents didn't have knowledge.
REBUTTAL
This case is not built on speculation.
1. Whether or not there's a legal duty. Manslaughter based - a parent has a duty to affirmative duty to safeguard a third party of their children.
Not once did I argue what they should have known. What I said was the use of ordinary care would uncover. I don't have to prove that they had actual knowledge. I have to prove foreseeability - that's the law.
No one else was in a position to know that the gun was purchased as a christmas present, he was disturbed, he had hallucinations, that he lost his friend. They took a disturb mentally challenege and possible ill kid, and what did they do? They didn't ake him to a doctor, or take him home, embrace him, tell him they love him. They bought him a deadly weapon. And at the moment when they had the opportunity when they were concerned, they didn't even say we got him a gun, and they refer to it as his gun.
When a parent learns of a school shooter, and before the name is public, and the parent texts "don't do it" there is foreseeability. James knew it was foreseeable when he checked for the gun at the house.
James and Jennifer were indifferent. They just didn't care. Just one thing, one action could have prevented it.
If there was any question about who cared about him, it was settled that day. His parents didn't greet him or touch him. No one cared about him.
I agree you're allowed to be a terrible parent. And if that's all this was, I wouldn't be here.
Kristin Esq.
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JUDGE:
The issue to be determined by the court, is a probable cause standard.
After hearing the extensive evidence and testimony, the court finds that the deaths of the victims could have been avoided if they exercised ordinary care of Ethan Crumbley.
EC was a danger to the community.
The parents neglected to address EC's danger, and his danger resulted in the 4 deaths.
EC was a troubled young man and the parents had knowledge.
The defendants are BOUND over as charged.
The issue to be determined by the court, is a probable cause standard.
After hearing the extensive evidence and testimony, the court finds that the deaths of the victims could have been avoided if they exercised ordinary care of Ethan Crumbley.
EC was a danger to the community.
The parents neglected to address EC's danger, and his danger resulted in the 4 deaths.
EC was a troubled young man and the parents had knowledge.
The defendants are BOUND over as charged.
Kristin Esq.
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Defense is asking the court to reconsider the bond:
Ethan is incarcerated. James and Jennifer have minimal criminal history, no failure to appear issues.
Reduce the bond and allow them to be released. We've had issues with meeting our clients due to covid restrictions. It's affects their ability to meet with us. We ask that it's that bond is reduced to 100,000 and 10%
PROSECUTION:
There's been no changes. This court set the bond upon arraignment, including their alleged flight.
There's no reason to amend bond.
JUDGE:
No reason for the Court to change it's position as it comes to bond. These are serious charges and there is a flight risk.
Ethan is incarcerated. James and Jennifer have minimal criminal history, no failure to appear issues.
Reduce the bond and allow them to be released. We've had issues with meeting our clients due to covid restrictions. It's affects their ability to meet with us. We ask that it's that bond is reduced to 100,000 and 10%
PROSECUTION:
There's been no changes. This court set the bond upon arraignment, including their alleged flight.
There's no reason to amend bond.
JUDGE:
No reason for the Court to change it's position as it comes to bond. These are serious charges and there is a flight risk.
BetteDavisEyes
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Reduction in bond DENIED.
MrsWatson
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Yesiamapirate
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Thank you so much for the updates today, @BetteDavisEyes . I am working and Beas able to follow along. ETA thank you also @Kristin Esq. much appreciated!
Gardenista
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They'd be free if they wouldn't have tried to run. So dumb.
Kristin Esq.
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Sorry for any typos!! And anything I may have missed!!
The defense attorneys are really an abrasive pair and hard for me to take seriously. Their actions and narrative are so sophomoric it's difficult to watch. I believe they are way over their heads with this case and won't see it to the end. Are they court appointed...I can't remember. MO
Excellent job.
Kristin Esq.
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They aren't court appointed. But these are definitely not the types of cases they normally take.
WRT defense attorneys -- assuming that they haven't changed them: Why Ethan Crumbley’s Parents Have Hired High-Profile Legal Team While Their Son Gets Court Appointed Lawyer (msn.com)
I Google them! And you're right.
Doghairrules
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IIRC, the parents used what little money they have to hire themselves an attorney. EC is the one with the court-appointed one. In keeping with how they've always apparently parented this kid.
Gardenista
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Prosecution was sharp today in her rebuttal closing. Not knowing the law in MI, I thought the defense attorneys did a decent job, but then the prosecution blew them out of the water.
BetteDavisEyes
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Michigan School Shooter’s Parents Turn to Larry Nassar’s Lawyer (bloomberglaw.com)
James and Jennifer Crumbley hired Shannon Smith to defend them against four counts of involuntary manslaughter following the deaths of four students at Oxford High School in Michigan. Their son, Ethan Crumbley, 15, is facing murder charges in the wake of the shooting.
Based in the Detroit suburbs, Smith defends people accused of sex crimes and other offenses, according to her law firm’s website. She represented Nassar during his 2018 case that saw him plead guilty to seven charges of criminal sexual conduct and receive a prison sentence of up to 175 years...
- Shannon Smith, Mariell Lehman representing James and Jennifer Crumbley
- Smith has experience representing high-profile defendants
James and Jennifer Crumbley hired Shannon Smith to defend them against four counts of involuntary manslaughter following the deaths of four students at Oxford High School in Michigan. Their son, Ethan Crumbley, 15, is facing murder charges in the wake of the shooting.
Based in the Detroit suburbs, Smith defends people accused of sex crimes and other offenses, according to her law firm’s website. She represented Nassar during his 2018 case that saw him plead guilty to seven charges of criminal sexual conduct and receive a prison sentence of up to 175 years...
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