MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #3

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I can't say I'm completely surprised by this. I am not quite sure how I feel about it, though, yet.

It does make me even angrier with his parents. He was clearly crying for help and they just didn't care. Well, they cared enough to buy him a gun. My mind just can't wrap around that.

All MOO
 
In addition to James and Jennifer Crumbley and Ethan Crumbley, the suit names dean of students NE and counselors PF and SH, and includes three unnamed teachers. The first is described as the teacher who sent Ethan Crumbley to the office Nov. 29, the day before the shooting

Quote RSBM.
This is a case in which I understand lawsuits, but why include the teacher(s) who sent him to the office?
 
Ethan Crumbley planning insanity defense in Oxford shooting case (detroitnews.com)

Accused Oxford High School shooter Ethan Crumbley plans to plead insanity in the criminal case accusing him of killing four students and wounding six others and a teacher during a Nov. 30 attack, according to a court filing Thursday...

A one-sentence notice of insanity defense was filed early Thursday in Oakland Circuit Court, signed by defense attorneys Paulette Michel Loftin and Amy Hopp. Neither have returned telephone calls.

"Please take notice that pursuant to MCL 769.20a the defendant Ethan Crumbley intends to assert the defense of insanity at the time of the alleged offense and gives his notice of his intention to claim such a defense," reads a copy of the filing, obtained by The Detroit News...

From what we've seen so far, I think this is appropriate. Completely avoidable if people would have been paying attention to him.
 
I can't say I'm completely surprised by this. I am not quite sure how I feel about it, though, yet.

It does make me even angrier with his parents. He was clearly crying for help and they just didn't care. Well, they cared enough to buy him a gun. My mind just can't wrap around that.

All MOO

I agree, I'm not sure how I feel about this yet, but I'm definitely not surprised.
 
This is a case in which I understand lawsuits, but why include the teacher(s) who sent him to the office?

Having taught high sch00l, sending a student to the office can be perceived as not wanting to deal with said student in the classroom. It is often a last-ditch effort by the teacher to get the student to comply with classroom rules and expectations. There should always be follow-up communication as soon as possible for the teacher to explain why the student was sent to the principal's (or counselor's) office. In this case, Ethan was sent to the office but was allowed to return to school the following day. Whatever explanation the teacher had for sending EC to the office didn't result in any disciplinary action by school administration. JMO
 
@Kristin Esq. , from a legal standpoint, how difficult will an insanity defense be to pursue?

I have a hard time with it because although I do believe it's very likely he is mentally ill, I also believe he knew right from wrong. What we know so far leads me to believe this is something he had been thinking about for a while, so premeditated.

How will the trial progress from here?

TIA, I always appreciate your insights.
 
Ethan Crumbley planning insanity defense in Oxford shooting case (detroitnews.com)

Accused Oxford High School shooter Ethan Crumbley plans to plead insanity in the criminal case accusing him of killing four students and wounding six others and a teacher during a Nov. 30 attack, according to a court filing Thursday...

A one-sentence notice of insanity defense was filed early Thursday in Oakland Circuit Court, signed by defense attorneys Paulette Michel Loftin and Amy Hopp. Neither have returned telephone calls.

"Please take notice that pursuant to MCL 769.20a the defendant Ethan Crumbley intends to assert the defense of insanity at the time of the alleged offense and gives his notice of his intention to claim such a defense," reads a copy of the filing, obtained by The Detroit News...

Insanity defense must fail. He only stopped shooting when confronted by police, at which time he instantly laid down his gun - a sane, wholly rational act. He was fully cognizant enough to know if he did not they would shoot and kill him.

JMO
 
Having taught high sch00l, sending a student to the office can be perceived as not wanting to deal with said student in the classroom. It is often a last-ditch effort by the teacher to get the student to comply with classroom rules and expectations. There should always be follow-up communication as soon as possible for the teacher to explain why the student was sent to the principal's (or counselor's) office. In this case, Ethan was sent to the office but was allowed to return to school the following day. Whatever explanation the teacher had for sending EC to the office didn't result in any disciplinary action by school administration. JMO

I taught 8th grade for 25 years, so thousands upon thousands of 14- year olds were under my care during the day.

We are mandated reporters, which meant that we absolutely were required to report anything suspicious or dangerous up the chain of command. It seems to me that the teacher did that. If he or she reported to his or her superior the reason why the student was being sent to the office, then the teacher fulfilled the duty of mandated reporter. I'm certain that a report was made, because you can't just send a child to the office without an explanation. The counselor or administration seem to be the ones who dropped the ball, IMO.

I cannot see how the teacher should be sued. That person is on the front lines and reported it up the chain. If admin had followed through, that teacher would be the hero.
 
I taught 8th grade for 25 years, so thousands upon thousands of 14- year olds were under my care during the day.

We are mandated reporters, which meant that we absolutely were required to report anything suspicious or dangerous up the chain of command. It seems to me that the teacher did that. If he or she reported to his or her superior the reason why the student was being sent to the office, then the teacher fulfilled the duty of mandated reporter. I'm certain that a report was made, because you can't just send a child to the office without an explanation. The counselor or administration seem to be the ones who dropped the ball, IMO.

I cannot see how the teacher should be sued. That person is on the front lines and reported it up the chain. If admin had followed through, that teacher would be the hero.
Maybe they violated the mandated reporter laws in their state. Here in Arizona, we are required to report directly to LE or CPS/APS. Up the chain of command is not enough. Moo.
 
Oxford High School reports security breach; sources say student expelled for deer head returned (fox2detroit.com)

FKIh05dWYAQJ4hq

https://twitter.com/JDupnackFOX2/status/1486788023756992515?s=20&t=_uy4S2j1WKkGD-2u4freJg
 
Maybe they violated the mandated reporter laws in their state. Here in Arizona, we are required to report directly to LE or CPS/APS. Up the chain of command is not enough. Moo.

That could well be the case. In my state, NY, we are actually forbidden from doing that. We MUST inform the guidance counselor, principal or assistant principal and only THEY are authorized to call LE or Child Protection. We would get in trouble for usurping their roles and making a judgment call we are not considered qualified to make.

However, I'm trying to picture how that would work if in my state, teachers were obligated to make the call themselves. I certainly couldn't halt class and make that call in front of other students. I couldn't make that call in front of the perpetrator, either, because who knows what the reaction would be if that put him over the edge while in class? Then I also can't see waiting until I had a free period, while letting it slide by in the meantime. IMO it has to be handled immediately and that's why admin or a counselor, who also have training in crisis intervention, are supposed to do that.


ETA: at least in my school, we weren't even allowed to call 911 if there were some kind of medical emergency. We had to call administration and they'd have to call.
THAT is something I've never understood. We are acting in loco parentis, seconds count, but those were the rules. I'm recently retired but I don't think it's changed.
 
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From what we've seen so far, I think this is appropriate. Completely avoidable if people would have been paying attention to him.

The question is, was it avoidable by him? An insanity defense is going to be very hard for his attorneys to prove, IMO. He planned this out, he knew he needed to hide the weapon, he chose to ask for his homework as a distraction, to wait until he was alone to take out his weapon. He wasn't showing signs of psychosis while sitting in the office with the adults. Being very "troubled" isn't necessarily "insanity." All JMO.
 
That could well be the case. In my state, NY, we are actually forbidden from doing that. We MUST inform the guidance counselor, principal or assistant principal and only THEY are authorized to call LE or Child Protection. We would get in trouble for usurping their roles and making a judgment call we are not considered qualified to make.

However, I'm trying to picture how that would work if in my state, teachers were obligated to make the call themselves. I certainly couldn't halt class and make that call in front of other students. I couldn't make that call in front of the perpetrator, either, because who knows what the reaction would be if that put him over the edge while in class? Then I also can't see waiting until I had a free period, while letting it slide by in the meantime. IMO it has to be handled immediately and that's why admin or a counselor, who also have training in crisis intervention, are supposed to do that.


ETA: at least in my school, we weren't even allowed to call 911 if there were some kind of medical emergency. We had to call administration and they'd have to call.
THAT is something I've never understood. We are acting in loco parentis, seconds count, but those were the rules. I'm recently retired but I don't think it's changed.
It's interesting to learn that the standards vary so widely by state. I found the code for Michigan, it is similar to ours except LE isn't mentioned, just Central intake at Department of Health and Human Services. It does appear they violated the law (assuming this falls under child neglect, and not just the suspicious behavior as discussed in the thread).
"Mandated reporters shall make an immediate report to CI by telephone or through the online reporting system, of suspected child abuse or child neglect. Within 72 hours after making an oral report by telephone, the reporting person shall file a written report (DHS-3200). If the immediate report has been made using the online reporting system, no additional written report is required.

Reporting the suspected allegations of child abuse and/or neglect to the head of the organization does not fulfill the requirement to report directly to DHHS."

MDHHS - Mandated Reporters Are Required by Law to Report
 
It's interesting to learn that the standards vary so widely by state. I found the code for Michigan, it is similar to ours except LE isn't mentioned, just Central intake at Department of Health and Human Services. It does appear they violated the law (assuming this falls under child neglect, and not just the suspicious behavior as discussed in the thread).
"Mandated reporters shall make an immediate report to CI by telephone or through the online reporting system, of suspected child abuse or child neglect. Within 72 hours after making an oral report by telephone, the reporting person shall file a written report (DHS-3200). If the immediate report has been made using the online reporting system, no additional written report is required.

Reporting the suspected allegations of child abuse and/or neglect to the head of the organization does not fulfill the requirement to report directly to DHHS."

MDHHS - Mandated Reporters Are Required by Law to Report

I don't think a teenager searching ammo falls under child abuse/neglect or mandated reporting, especially given the gun culture in Michigan. The teacher did as they should have - notifying counselors/ administration. They should not be in the lawsuit.
 
Having taught high sch00l, sending a student to the office can be perceived as not wanting to deal with said student in the classroom. It is often a last-ditch effort by the teacher to get the student to comply with classroom rules and expectations. There should always be follow-up communication as soon as possible for the teacher to explain why the student was sent to the principal's (or counselor's) office. In this case, Ethan was sent to the office but was allowed to return to school the following day. Whatever explanation the teacher had for sending EC to the office didn't result in any disciplinary action by school administration. JMO

Hopefully the insanity defense will fail.

Will be thinking of you tomorrow- good luck!!
and Happy Birthday to you!!!!
 
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