GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #5

[Izzylizzy]

Didn't Smith say there was one witness they were considering calling today, but she and her client aren't in agreement about it yet, so it was still up in the air? Maybe that was the particular witness with child care issues?

The two parents are an interesting choice. JC texted (her boyfriend I think) that her mom blames her. Not sure I'd want her on the witness list for that reason alone. Maybe they had them on standby in case the prosecution destroyed her on the stand, and when they softballed it, she was happy to rest. She was almost giddy about resting.

You think Smith is pleased with her defense and thinks Kaeser failed?
I don't think it looks good at all for JC not having any defense witnesses.

 

[wyome]

I’m starting to wonder if EC wasn’t just flaming mad at his parents lack of love/neglect and did this crime to punish them. I can see a teenage mind going there. He didn’t appreciate them trying to discipline him or getting mad at him for his performance in school when they were so detached from him otherwise. It’s like the spouse that kills the children to get back at the ex. JMO

Yes, I think both parents and EC were fed up that night. Parents probably said, "We're taking your phone away." EC flew in a rage with his phone out of the house and mom or dad locked it behind him in anger.

To be ignored at that tender age, only to be given attention when your grades suck, I could see his mind going this way, too. He had said before that his family was a mistake. That's always stuck with me, because I can see a teen saying "I hate my parents," but saying his family was a mistake is more (imo) of an expression of helplessness or sadness.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Prosecution picks apart Jennifer Crumbley's parenting of shooter son during cross-examination

Crumbley, 45, is facing four counts of involuntary manslaughter in the deaths of four students at Oxford High School killed by her son, Ethan, in 2021.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[wyome]

You think Smith is pleased with her defense and thinks Kaeser failed?
I don't think it looks good at all for JC not having any defense witnesses.

I think she is. I think she feels there's reasonable doubt in at least one juror on any number of the evidence presented that her client attributed to James. JC really gets the upper hand with her trial being first.

 

[Weki]

Closings - here we go. McDonald is doing the first argument for the state!

Edited to add - She’s reading from a prepared statement. Starting out with how horrific this crime was and how hard it was emotionally for everyone…..

 

[Izzylizzy]

Closing arguments.
Godspeed Karen McDonald.

 

[Weki]

Jury has to find that EC shooting was reasonably foreseeable to the defendant. Aha! I knew it!

McDonald still hasn’t touched on how JC was grossly negligent. She’s going through each witness’ testimony. This is a waste of time.

 

[RickshawFan]

I’m starting to wonder if EC wasn’t just flaming mad at his parents lack of love/neglect and did this crime to punish them. I can see a teenage mind going there. He didn’t appreciate them trying to discipline him or getting mad at him for his performance in school when they were so detached from him otherwise. It’s like the spouse that kills the children to get back at the ex. JMO

But he was also evidently correct in believing this was the only thing he could do to get their attention and the possibility of some adult rescue (in whatever form it might come in).

I think we also have to keep in mind that the Columbine shooting, which is pretty much the go-to paradigm for school shootings, is cult-famous. IMO many shooters intend and anticipate they'll be famous like that, and consider it a plus.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but just wanting to add more complexity to the mix. I don't believe we only have one strand in Ethan's choices.

 

[Weki]

McDonald talking about how seasoned the LE witnesses were and how the events of that day were seared in their minds. How brave they were in holding their emotions. What they told her etc. Defense objected. McDonald whines it’s her closing. Then says she’ll move on.

Weak closing so far! While Keast has been doing most of the examination, McDonald should’ve prepared her behind off for this closing argument. She’s the DA. Her cadence is halting and there’s a lack of conviction and authority in her voice.

JMO

Edited to add - So far she’s summarizing the testimony witness by witness. And adding a little snide comment about the things JC said/did. She acknowledges that the school didn’t do everything right and she wishes they had checked his backpack.

The argument is that JC was mad at her son the day of the shooting. She didn’t touch him, hug him or really acknowledge him.

 

[Weki]

McDonald - “The phone was never taken away. Why is she saying that? I don’t know!”

What is your theory? Your argument? What do you think happened the night before!!! Omg!

McDonald - “The most important thing Det Hendrick said was how he had to identify the bodies of Hana and Madison” what!?!?!? This is the trial of Jennifer Crumbley - not a hearing on how terrible this crime was and the effects on LE!!

 

[dazed_ncurious]

I really hope she isn't dropping the ball here. I just wouldn't have taken this route with a closing argument.

 

[cottonweaver]

Jury has to find that EC shooting was reasonably foreseeable to the defendant. Aha! I knew it!

McDonald still hasn’t touched on how JC was grossly negligent. She’s going through each witness’ testimony. This is a waste of time.

shooting someone ie. anyone, anybody

last line in the screenshot

Prosecutor's slides.

I haven't watched it all yet, am still at the beginning so IDK if it's a waste of time. I hope not

 

[Weki]

I can only hope the state has divided their argument into two parts - McDonald to summarize the evidence and Keast to make the impassioned argument about JC’s culpability after the defense closing. McDonald doesn’t even know how to properly pronounce the witnesses names - she looks at Keast for confirmation. Smh

 

[Weki]

shooting someone ie. anyone, anybody

last line in the screenshot
View attachment 480193
Prosecutor's slides.

I haven't watched it all yet, am still at the beginning so IDK if it's a waste of time. I hope notView attachment 480194

What is the distinction in your mind between what I said and “shooting anyone?” Do you believe they should’ve been able to forsee that he would shoot 1 or more people in any location?

 

[cottonweaver]

to another or to others
ordinary care

 

[Izzylizzy]

Karen McDonald's closing:

 

[cottonweaver]

What is the distinction in your mind between what I said and “shooting anyone?” Do you believe they should’ve been able to forsee that he would shoot 1 or more people in any location?

I thought that you believe she must have pre-known exactly what he would do.

it's a foreseeable risk,
yes I do believe that JC and husband should have realised that there was a risk
( because of what they knew about his desperate state of mind and violent feelings)

I do not believe that JC & husband ought to have pre-known exactly how many deaths, the locations, how many injuries etc. They do not need to have a crystall ball or know the unknowable. They just have to have realised there was a risk that somebody could get hurt.

I am just at the start and I hope she is making this clear to the jury. It feels underwhelming to me, she is not great. Sorry

 

[dazed_ncurious]

Mcdonald is done. Smith asked for a 3 min bathroom break.

 

[Vaderman]

Mcdonald is done. Smith asked for a 3 min bathroom break.

I could have done without that mental image.

 

[Weki]

I thought that you believe she must have pre-known exactly what he would do.

it's a foreseeable risk

Ah ok maybe I’m conflating the two in my mind. Hmmm. Was it foreseeable that he would cause serious bodily injury or kill someone with the gun? Hmmmmmmm…….I think I have to say yes at this point with all the evidence we have seen. He being a minor and being emotionally immature it is foreseeable that if they gave him access to a gun he would take that gun and do harm. It’s foreseeable he would shoot THEM cause he’s mad at them! That’s why she said it probably.