MI MI - Julia Niswender, 23, EMU student, Ypsilanti, 10 Dec 2012 - #2

[hockeymom4]

Interesting perspective hockeymom4, thank you for posting that. I need to mull that over.
O.K. then, let's say that explains suicidal behavior. But homicidal? (Allegedly). If you are innocent, why are you threatening others?

Was he homicidal? I don't really remember any more, I thought the call to 911 came in that he may hurt himself or others. In this situation, and based what I stated above and what we don't know, I don't see anything wrong with that assessment. I thought then that it was reported it had a ton of guns, but during the hearing it was proved differently. I thought he exited the studio without incident and had one gun in the car. I may have got it confused. I just don't think he truly was homicidall, but he probably said things to concern her in the heat of an argument.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Was he homicidal? I don't really remember any more, I thought the call to 911 came in that he may hurt himself or others. In this situation, and based what I stated above and what we don't know, I don't see anything wrong with that assessment. I thought then that it was reported it had a ton of guns, but during the hearing it was proved differently. I thought he exited the studio without incident and had one gun in the car. I may have got it confused. I just don't think he truly was homicidall, but he probably said things to concern her in the heat of an argument.

Staff at the psych facility where JT was taken for evaluation considered him a threat and contacted Sheriff's office to come and get him. JT was combative and uncooperative, and staff were concerned for their safety due to his martial arts skills. JT apparently had a loaded weapon in his car when he fled to the martial arts studio from his home when search warrant was exercised. Sounds homicidal to me. :moo:

 

[black_squirrel]

I also wonder what reasons LE has in continuing to question JT's "alibi" over two years later, ESPECIALLY if it's true that he passed two lie detector tests as well....

I wonder this as well. Based on what I know, the alibi seems pretty solid for the time of the murder. After work on Sunday (what time?), Julia spoke with Jennifer on the phone (what time?).
Later, Julia texted around 10:30pm. On Monday morning Julia did not show up for work (what time was she supposed to start?). So it seems that the murder was commited between
10:30pm and Monday morning. During that time, JT was at home with his wife and other children. Now, to be completely precise one must say that the text message perhaps doesn't prove she was
alive at the time. Someone else could have used her cell phone to send the text message (but somewhat unlikely). I am also not sure if LE is really questioning this alibi for the time of the murder.
Also, even if JT had deceived Kimberly and Jennifer in some way, it would seem strange that he would leave the house in night or early morning to drive to Ypsilanti to commit
murder, premeditated or not.

"This is due to the fact that he has not provided detectives with a formal statement as to his whereabouts the days prior to Julia's death, thus making him a person of interest," police said in the statement.

source:http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2015/03/stepfather_a_person_of_interes.html

So it seems that police is wondering where he was before the day of Julia's death. Does LE have any theory about what happened, or are they just grasping at straws? I think one of the reasons
that LE is (re-)investigating JT may be the fact that some family members have expressed concern that JT may know more about the murder. I wonder how JT could have information about the murder
if it was not he who did it. Did he hire a contract killer or something like that? But then one must question how the killer got inside. How did the killer know that Julia was alone in the apartment etc.
Is it possible that the killer had the key to the apartment? Etc.

What about the toxicology report. What does it mean that it is "inconclusive"? I don't think it has been released. Perhaps there was something remarkable about the report, but LE does not want
to release the information. Is it possible that Julia was drugged in some way?

 

[OldSteve]

There have been quite a few child *advertiser censored* cases in Michigan lately; some here in the UP as well. IMHO some of these are related as forensic crime units tie the accounts of these users to one another. Also in my opinion, it could have nothing or everything to do with missing cases. Time will tell.

Not sure who said it earlier but I agree with innocent until proven guilty. It is surprising that they've arrested JT but very little shocks me these days. I will continue to sit back quietly and read available MSM, reserving my opinion until more condemning facts are revealed. To me it seems a heartbroken grandmother is the only one (aside from LE) who suspects JT is in any way tied to the murder of Julia.

FWIW two pennies for the coffers.

At this point he has not been convicted of anything. Was he really suicidal, or was that simply a way to make life difficult for him? -

Suicide watch regimes, particularly in jail cells, have been criticized for being too restrictive and dismissive of privacy, socially functioning as a form of legal torture rather than being for the good of the detainee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_watch

 

[hockeymom4]

Staff at the psych facility where JT was taken for evaluation considered him a threat and contacted Sheriff's office to come and get him. JT was combative and uncooperative, and staff were concerned for their safety due to his martial arts skills. JT apparently had a loaded weapon in his car when he fled to the martial arts studio from his home when search warrant was exercised. Sounds homicidal to me. :moo:

We will have to agree to disagree. I think he may have wanted to harm himself, but I don't believe he wanted to murder other people at that time,mwhy has is what homicidal means. Jmo, but I think the staff in his situation just like many others are concerned for their safety when they have combative patients. Hospitals and LE deals with this daily. Also, when people are starting rehab or the psych ward, they are often agitated and combatitive. This doesn't mean equal homicidal. Of course maybe some are because of their altered states.

I don't think his intent was to kill the staff.

Edit: I just wanted to add, that if all of these people found that he was so suicidal and so homicidal and a harm to himself and others, why turn him back over to the jails? Why did they not put in in a required stay in the hospital to be watched? Did he already complete one and couldn't stay longer?

 

[black_squirrel]

Staff at the psych facility where JT was taken for evaluation considered him a threat and contacted Sheriff's office to come and get him. JT was combative and uncooperative, and staff were concerned for their safety due to his martial arts skills. JT apparently had a loaded weapon in his car when he fled to the martial arts studio from his home when search warrant was exercised. Sounds homicidal to me. :moo:

"This all came up at the arraignment," he said. "I talked to the officer in charge of the case, and he testified that he didn't barricade himself and he had unlocked the door for police. He had one pistol in his vehicle, which he has a CCW permit for."

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...-linked-emu-students-drowning-death/24474357/

I don't think the gun was loaded (would that be legal?). In any case, he did not take the pistol with him inside the martial arts studio.
Who exactly was he going to kill in the martial arts studio if he was homicidal? Being combative is not the same as being homicidal.

On the other hand, if he was suicidal, one should take every precaution though.

 

[black_squirrel]

Edit: I just wanted to add, that if all of these people found that he was so suicidal and so homicidal and a harm to himself and others, why turn him back over to the jails? Why did they not put in in a required stay in the hospital to be watched? Did he already complete one and couldn't stay longer?

They also can put a person on suicide watch in jail, and they should. He is now being jailed for his own protection, and they better make sure that he is being protected.

 

[electric_rainbow]

In his booking photo, he appeared to be wearing one of those anti-suicide smocks.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Until there are formal charges in Julia's murder, maybe there should be a separate thread for discussion of James Turnquist and the child *advertiser censored* charge. This thread is supposed to be about finding out who killed Julia Niswender, but the focus lately has been on the JT *advertiser censored* charges that might not be in any way related to Julia's death. I've already started a new thread about David William Huntley so we don't get caught up discussing that case here on the Julia Niswender thread.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ed*-found-in-former-substitute-teacher-s-home

 

[black_squirrel]

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...tepfather-slain-emu-student-custody/24377593/
This article has some answers to the questions I asked earlier.

"I had lunch with Julia that day and later that night talked to her on the phone," Jennifer Niswender, Julia's twin sister, told The Detroit News on Wednesday. "She wasn't planning on having anyone over and said she planned to stay in and do some studying. Could she have opened the door and let someone in that she knew? I don't know."

So Julia was still alive later that night.

Julia Niswender was last seen around 5 p.m. Dec. 9, 2012, as she left work at Wal-Mart in Saline. Her roommates called police after not hearing from her for two days. She had two female roommates, and one had gone home for the weekend and the other was "in and out," Jennifer Niswender said.

left work at 5pm.

Niswender family members have said Julia's apartment door was locked and there were no signs of struggle, but the apartment was in disarray.

The cause of death was ruled asphyxiation associated with drowning. Police believe she was choked to the point of losing consciousness and then thrown into the tub.

So she was choked. (Are they sure though that she was choked and not asphyxiated some other way?)
This suggests a strong person, probably male. Can one choke a person without leaving significant marks on the body that would have been noticed right away in the autopsy?
Thrown in the bathtub, rather than carefully placed? This suggests that the scene was not staged.
But then, why the drowning and not choking until death? Or was the killer not aware that she was still alive.
Or could this have been an attempt to destroy evidence. Perhaps this is why she was partially undressed.
Do we know if the clothes that she was not wearing were in the room? Or were these taken by the killer?

 

[Spellbound]

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...tepfather-slain-emu-student-custody/24377593/
This article has some answers to the questions I asked earlier.


So Julia was still alive later that night.

left work at 5pm.

So she was choked. (Are they sure though that she was choked and not asphyxiated some other way?)
This suggests a strong person, probably male. Can one choke a person without leaving significant marks on the body that would have been noticed right away in the autopsy?
Thrown in the bathtub, rather than carefully placed? This suggests that the scene was not staged.
But then, why the drowning and not choking until death? Or was the killer not aware that she was still alive.
Or could this have been an attempt to destroy evidence. Perhaps this is why she was partially undressed.
Do we know if the clothes that she was not wearing were in the room? Or were these taken by the killer?

I have similar questions. Is this the first time we have seen the word "choked" regarding her death? No marks? Seems there would be finger marks if one was choked. But martial arts holds can be done and leave no marks, per links up thread. "Dumped" into the tub? Had she already filled the tub to take a bath, was partially dressed when this person came in, perhaps wearing a robe? Or did the intruder fill the tub? Nothing indicates the water was left running, so either the intruder took the time to fill it or it already had water. Did Julia prefer tub baths or showers?

Still no answers, but a lot of questions.

 

[bessie]

Until there are formal charges in Julia's murder, maybe there should be a separate thread for discussion of James Turnquist and the child *advertiser censored* charge. This thread is supposed to be about finding out who killed Julia Niswender, but the focus lately has been on the JT *advertiser censored* charges that might not be in any way related to Julia's death. I've already started a new thread about David William Huntley so we don't get caught up discussing that case here on the Julia Niswender thread.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ed*-found-in-former-substitute-teacher-s-home

I think the child *advertiser censored* charges are tied too closely to LE naming him a POI in Julia's murder to separate the two topics. I do agree with the thread for Huntley. :thumb:

 

[bessie]

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...tepfather-slain-emu-student-custody/24377593/
This article has some answers to the questions I asked earlier.


So Julia was still alive later that night.

left work at 5pm.

So she was choked. (Are they sure though that she was choked and not asphyxiated some other way?)
This suggests a strong person, probably male. Can one choke a person without leaving significant marks on the body that would have been noticed right away in the autopsy?
Thrown in the bathtub, rather than carefully placed? This suggests that the scene was not staged.
But then, why the drowning and not choking until death? Or was the killer not aware that she was still alive.
Or could this have been an attempt to destroy evidence. Perhaps this is why she was partially undressed.
Do we know if the clothes that she was not wearing were in the room? Or were these taken by the killer?

Please keep in mind that is not a direct quote from LE. In fact, I believe this is the only article which uses the term "choked". Earlier in the thread I included a direct LE quote which states that LE does not know how she was asphyxiated, and that it could have occurred in a number of ways.

"We don't know how she was asphyxiated," Yuhas said, after indicating it could have been done in a number of ways.
http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2013/11/julia_niswender.html

 

[FindHG]

Please keep in mind that is not a direct quote from LE. In fact, I believe this is the only article which uses the term "choked". Earlier in the thread I included a direct LE quote which states that LE does not know how she was asphyxiated, and that it could have occurred in a number of ways.

"We don't know how she was asphyxiated," Yuhas said, after indicating it could have been done in a number of ways.
http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2013/11/julia_niswender.html

Thank you, bessie and BetteDavisEyes, for making the threads clear and to all concerned for their helpful input.

Just catching up.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Yes, and I want to say despite our differing perspectives and speculations, this thread of websleuthers are being respectful to each other. This is tough stuff to talk and speculate on. Everyone is being a class act. Thank you!

 

[hockeymom4]

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/grandmother-of-slain-emu-student-family-is-divided/31641568

In the above article it states

Police said there was no forced entry into her apartment and believe someone who knew her used her key to lock the door from the outside before they left.

I was watching Dateline from Friday and the college girl was murdered while in bed with no forced entry. Her roommate stated that she borrowed the guy who was later convicted of her murder her car (at an earlier date) and that it is possible that he made a copy of her key at that time. It got me thinking with Julia. Did she borrow her car out? I previously had suggested someone making a copy of her keys from her locker at work or at her house. Or taking a spare key at home. Or even someone grabbing one out of the drawer at her apartment. I always had spares around in my rental. Maybe someone borrowed her car and made a copy.

 

[goldenbear]

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/grandmother-of-slain-emu-student-family-is-divided/31641568

in the above article it states




i was watching dateline from friday and the college girl was murdered while in bed with no forced entry. Her roommate stated that she borrowed the guy who was later convicted of her murder her car (at an earlier date) and that it is possible that he made a copy of her key at that time. It got me thinking with julia. Did she borrow her car out? I previously had suggested someone making a copy of her keys from her locker at work or at her house. Or taking a spare key at home. Or even someone grabbing one out of the drawer at her apartment. I always had spares around in my rental. Maybe someone borrowed her car and made a copy.

i agree.

 

[Spellbound]

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...-linked-emu-students-drowning-death/24474357/

I don't think the gun was loaded (would that be legal?). In any case, he did not take the pistol with him inside the martial arts studio.
Who exactly was he going to kill in the martial arts studio if he was homicidal? Being combative is not the same as being homicidal.

On the other hand, if he was suicidal, one should take every precaution though.

Yes, it is legal to carry a loaded pistol if you have the proper permit. Which he had.

Not knowing where the firearm arm was when police first encountered JT, they may have had reason to believe he would shoot at them.

Being "combative" is not to be taken lightly. In this day, any authority figure has to be careful how they approach a combative individual or be accused themselves of brutality. We do not know at this time what the combative nature of JT consisted of -- he could have been threatening physical harm or saying something like "I could kill you" He had martial arts skills that could cause great bodily harm to an individual --- I would have been extremely cautious with him in an agitated state if I knew that.

To be arrested, there must be good reason. Maybe not the ones we are aware of. Police cannot go around arresting people on a whim.

Michigan Firearms Laws:
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf

 

[Spellbound]

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/grandmother-of-slain-emu-student-family-is-divided/31641568

In the above article it states




I was watching Dateline from Friday and the college girl was murdered while in bed with no forced entry. Her roommate stated that she borrowed the guy who was later convicted of her murder her car (at an earlier date) and that it is possible that he made a copy of her key at that time. It got me thinking with Julia. Did she borrow her car out? I previously had suggested someone making a copy of her keys from her locker at work or at her house. Or taking a spare key at home. Or even someone grabbing one out of the drawer at her apartment. I always had spares around in my rental. Maybe someone borrowed her car and made a copy.

"used her key to lock the door from the outside"

I need a refresher course. Were Julia's keys missing? Perhaps they just took her keys when they left, locked her door with them, and now ....... where is key(s)?

If someone borrowed my car, they would get the car key, but not my house keys. That would mean pre-planning nefarious activities to go to all the trouble of borrowing her car, making a key; or sneaking ot out of a purse or locker and making a key, then returning it.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

...Being "combative" is not to be taken lightly. In this day, any authority figure has to be careful how they approach a combative individual or be accused themselves of brutality. We do not know at this time what the combative nature of JT consisted of -- he could have been threatening physical harm or saying something like "I could kill you" He had martial arts skills that could cause great bodily harm to an individual --- I would have been extremely cautious with him in an agitated state if I knew that....

Mental health professionals know which patients are likely to harm themselves and/or others. The staff at the psych facility felt threatened and were aware of JT's martial arts skills. They contacted the Sheriff's office to come to get this man who presented as a possible danger to himself and/or others.

A late family member was in and out of mental health facilities for much of her adult life. Visitation access is strict and limited - usually only a couple of days a week for an hour or two. Visitors must sign in and are not permitted to carry anything into the wards - no purses, clothing, food, gifts, phones, etc. Elevators are activated by key and have an attendant who escorts visitors to restricted visiting areas. Guests are never allowed in patient rooms. During visiting hours, armed guards patrol each floor. The unpredictable behaviors of mental health patients is not taken lightly, and patients who are particularly agitated or volatile are denied visiting privileges if they pose a danger to other patients or visitors.