MN MN - Amy Pagnac, 13, Osseo, 5 Aug 1989

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It is too hard for me to look back at all of the posts on here as my internet is so bad. But it is listed on here several times. I believe she even went to a place for runaways in the Cities. The police reports are listed as I recall.

I do recall mention that she was aware of the Bridge, and that she had been to the Bridge, but never that she had been in the shelter as a resident or needed the services.
 
It is too hard for me to look back at all of the posts on here as my internet is so bad. But it is listed on here several times. I believe she even went to a place for runaways in the Cities. The police reports are listed as I recall.

Ah yes, found it. Comment #452. Amy's mom talks about Amy going to The Bridge with a friend who needed help, and then calling her parents to come get her afterwards. Mom states that she was proud of Amy for being a helpful and caring friend.
 
The Bridge, where I stayed for a few days at 14 years old, was not a flop house. If Amy had gone there she would have been registered as a participant and it would be a known fact by the police. I have never read that she went to The Bridge, only her mother's speculation she might have gone there has been reported.

Amy also had friends that used the Bridge’s services. Amy has a big heart, she is kind, and thoughtful, so in the summer of 1989, when one of her friend was in great distress, she stayed with her friend all the way to the bridge. When they arrived, her friend registered, and Amy called us to pick her up. I am very proud of Amy, that she would not abandon an individual that was in distress. It is unfortunate that because she was aware of the Bridge, and went to the Bridge in support of a friend, that everyone assumes the worst.
Bumping a couple older posts for easier viewing.
 
Ah yes, found it. Comment #452. Amy's mom talks about Amy going to The Bridge with a friend who needed help, and then calling her parents to come get her afterwards. Mom states that she was proud of Amy for being a helpful and caring friend.

How could a thirteen year old get to the Cities? Did you find the numerous runaway reports?
 
How could a thirteen year old get to the Cities? Did you find the numerous runaway reports?

What "numerous runaway reports"? The family has said that this was unusual behavior for her. Is there some other source you are using? I think I remember seeing one mention in an article about how Amy was away from home without her parent's permission, and packed clothes and whatnot, but it sounded like a typical "kid wants to go somewhere, and parents didn't give permission, and kid went anyway" sort of thing. If I recall correctly, the article said that Amy was home the next day on her own.

That's really not that unusual. I recall a few times in my own teenaged years where I stayed in town with friends rather than take the bus home just because I wanted to dodge parental supervision. Not to do anything bad, mind you. I was just sick of them knowing my every move sometimes, and regulating my schedule, and it was worth the grounding or whatever to get to hang out with friends or go to an event. My parents didn't report me as a runaway, but then again, if Amy's parents were worried about health problems that caused disorientation, they might have been a little more concerned and actually called police if their child were absent without letting them know where she was.
Just a thought, but if there were multiple runaway reports, I'd be interested to know where that information came from.

It seems like there could be more exploration in this thread, and a willingness to entertain different theories. Especially since it's likely that with all the activity on this case over the decades, and the MGPD making the statement that the family has cooperated all along with them that if there was any "there" there, a suspect would have been named and/or arrests made by now.

Just before the police went through the house and dug on the properties, I was at a BCA training on Missing Persons. I remember looking through the list of attendees and seeing that there were folks from MGPD there. One of the speakers was an FBI agent who talked about rejuvenating old cases, and one of the things he said it was important to do was to start back at the beginning and move forward as if it were a fresh case. This means starting with the people and places closest to the victim.

So when I heard that they were at the family's home, I wasn't surprised. After all, they seemed to be doing exactly what the FBI guy had recommended.

So, given that the family has cooperated fully all along, and there was an extensive exploration of everything that is still available (clearly, you can't go back and recover surveillance video that wasn't collected from the scene, and you can't go back and correct the missed opportunity to interview potential witnesses - remember the police told Marshall to go home, and the report was taken at the home, not at the scene. So the "fact" that there were no witnesses isn't exactly telling. We don't actually know if anyone saw Amy because nobody who was there around the time she disappeared was interviewed by police. It's unlikely that anyone would even remember if they were there at that gas station that day...so anyone who falls into the category of "unknowing witness" is lost to investigators at this point.), it seems like a reasonable thing to look at what else might have been going on in the area at the time and see if there are possible indications in the public record where there might be a related incident.

That's why I'd like to know more about the guy in his 50's who disappeared and was at first presumed dead in Weaver Lake. Just fifteen days after Amy disappeared, we have another random and apparently unexplained disappearance of an individual. That seems like something worth looking at and thinking about.

We have a series of armed robberies of local businesses going on and the perpetrators caught within a week of Amy's disappearance.. Which means that people were most likely casing those businesses. If they thought Amy was a witness and could be trouble for them and they had a weapon, could they get a 13-year-old girl to go quietly with the threat of violence and not raise alarm?

We have a kid bringing a weapon and ammunition to the school where Amy attended. Doesn't that give indications that there might have been the kind of trouble at the school described by Amy's parents, bullying, etc? It doesn't prove bullying and violence against Amy, but it also doesn't discount the idea that there were kids in the area who could make Amy feel unsafe and who could be a threat to her.

One story I didn't get a photo of (kicking myself now) was a story about a boy who was found hanging in his garage of apparent suicide. Also within months of Amy's disappearance. That also could be seen to support that there was intense bullying at the school.

There's lots of reasons to look into alternative theories. Getting fixated just doesn't seem that useful.
 
How could a thirteen year old get to the Cities? Did you find the numerous runaway reports?

Just googled travel from Osseo Middle School to Minneapolis. It is a 12 mile walk, or 20 minutes by bus. Not impossible for a 13 year old. Especially if the friend who was in crisis had information from some outreach source on how to get there. Even without the internet tools we have now, it was pretty easy to navigate by bus from the suburbs to the cities by bus. You could just call a help line and provide the addresses you wanted to go from/to, and they would tell you when to be at what stop and what transfers to take to get to your destination.
 
There was a bus from Osseo to the cities?

The reports of Amy running away multiple times are on here. They are police reports.
 
The garage that Marshall says he stopped at to use the bathroom was very close to the family home. Is it possible that Amy was upset or angry with Marshall for some reason, and so took the opportunity to get out of the car and try to walk home? Was the walking route between the garage and home searched after Amy was reported missing?

This scenario could only hold water if it would be possible for Amy to get out of sight in the available time that she had whilst Marshall used the bathroom.
 
http://www.startribune.com/another-...ac/263170601/?c=y&page=all&prepage=1#continue

A history of running away



At 5:45 p.m. on Aug. 5, 1989, young police officer Jeff Garland was called to a two-story green house with purple siding in the 9700 block of Hemlock Lane N. It was a rather routine call for a juvenile runaway — a call police had responded to there several times that summer. Garland said Amy’s parents were frustrated with her running away repeatedly, suspecting she was wandering off to have sex or drink alcohol.



“They were upset with Amy with her behavior; they thought she was promiscuous,” said Garland, now retired. “They didn’t know how to control her behavior … no different from a typical parent with a teenager.”



Susan Pagnac disputes that, saying that there was no family arguments and nothing unusual about Amy’s behavior except for having a headache.
 
http://www.startribune.com/another-...ac/263170601/?c=y&page=all&prepage=1#continue

A history of running away



At 5:45 p.m. on Aug. 5, 1989, young police officer Jeff Garland was called to a two-story green house with purple siding in the 9700 block of Hemlock Lane N. It was a rather routine call for a juvenile runaway — a call police had responded to there several times that summer. Garland said Amy’s parents were frustrated with her running away repeatedly, suspecting she was wandering off to have sex or drink alcohol.



“They were upset with Amy with her behavior; they thought she was promiscuous,” said Garland, now retired. “They didn’t know how to control her behavior … no different from a typical parent with a teenager.”



Susan Pagnac disputes that, saying that there was no family arguments and nothing unusual about Amy’s behavior except for having a headache.
I'll request these reports as well when I submit the request for the others via FOIA. Thanks for bringing this up, human!

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 
http://www.startribune.com/another-...ac/263170601/?c=y&page=all&prepage=1#continue

A history of running away



At 5:45 p.m. on Aug. 5, 1989, young police officer Jeff Garland was called to a two-story green house with purple siding in the 9700 block of Hemlock Lane N. It was a rather routine call for a juvenile runaway — a call police had responded to there several times that summer. Garland said Amy’s parents were frustrated with her running away repeatedly, suspecting she was wandering off to have sex or drink alcohol.



“They were upset with Amy with her behavior; they thought she was promiscuous,” said Garland, now retired. “They didn’t know how to control her behavior … no different from a typical parent with a teenager.”



Susan Pagnac disputes that, saying that there was no family arguments and nothing unusual about Amy’s behavior except for having a headache.

Given that the family disputes the Garland report, it's not surprising that they also dispute his summary of the conversation. It's also interesting to have the article say that Officer Garland was called to the house. The mother has repeatedly said that it was dispatch that told Amy's father to leave the scene where Amy disappeared, and meet the officer at the house.

So if the report by Lt. Markgraf is able to be located, it would be interesting to see how it differs from the report written by officer Garland. Since Amy's mom has said in several different interviews that she and Marshall had to repeatedly correct officer Garland about basic facts and he seemed to have somewhere more important to go, cut the interview sort, etc. then that is consistent with the idea that his report has errors.

And it is also consistent that Amy's parents didn't have enough certainty that he would get it right that Susan Sr. went in and double-checked the report and worked with Lt Markgraff to create one that corrected the record.

So I tend to take the reporter's interpretation of the officer's interpretation of the situation with a grain of salt. The game of telephone rarely results in good information. Best to go to the source and ask what was said, rather than rely on what someone says someone told them someone said.

If Amy was remiss in letting them know where she was, and they were worried about her health and safety due to the medical issues, then it makes sense that they would call the police and inform them that she wasn't where she was supposed to be, and have them on the look-out for her.

Young people are often absent without the permission of their parents, and parents are often frustrated by that, but it would add a level of anxiety if a parent was worried about their child having seizures of unknown cause. Plus, a perfectly wonderful child from a perfectly wonderful home could be annoyed at being hovered over, and decide to just not bother with the restrictions of worried parents.

And that kind of absence fits within the legal definition of "runaway". A child under the age of 18 whose parents/guardians do not know the location of such child, where the child is believed to have left the control of their guardian voluntarily without the consent of the parent/custodian.
 
The garage that Marshall says he stopped at to use the bathroom was very close to the family home. Is it possible that Amy was upset or angry with Marshall for some reason, and so took the opportunity to get out of the car and try to walk home? Was the walking route between the garage and home searched after Amy was reported missing?

This scenario could only hold water if it would be possible for Amy to get out of sight in the available time that she had whilst Marshall used the bathroom.

(RBBM for clarity)
Just curious, how close is close?
I ask because if it is super close, it makes me wonder why he even stopped at all.
I'd rather go at home myself, even if a public bathroom is closer, but that's just me.
 
(RBBM for clarity)
Just curious, how close is close?
I ask because if it is super close, it makes me wonder why he even stopped at all.
I'd rather go at home myself, even if a public bathroom is closer, but that's just me.

Apparently two miles.

To me, a couple of minutes. I wonder if the gas station bathroom required a key to get into. Many did.

Gas station bathrooms. Yuck
 
Given that the family disputes the Garland report, it's not surprising that they also dispute his summary of the conversation. It's also interesting to have the article say that Officer Garland was called to the house. The mother has repeatedly said that it was dispatch that told Amy's father to leave the scene where Amy disappeared, and meet the officer at the house.

So if the report by Lt. Markgraf is able to be located, it would be interesting to see how it differs from the report written by officer Garland. Since Amy's mom has said in several different interviews that she and Marshall had to repeatedly correct officer Garland about basic facts and he seemed to have somewhere more important to go, cut the interview sort, etc. then that is consistent with the idea that his report has errors.

And it is also consistent that Amy's parents didn't have enough certainty that he would get it right that Susan Sr. went in and double-checked the report and worked with Lt Markgraff to create one that corrected the record.

So I tend to take the reporter's interpretation of the officer's interpretation of the situation with a grain of salt. The game of telephone rarely results in good information. Best to go to the source and ask what was said, rather than rely on what someone says someone told them someone said.

If Amy was remiss in letting them know where she was, and they were worried about her health and safety due to the medical issues, then it makes sense that they would call the police and inform them that she wasn't where she was supposed to be, and have them on the look-out for her.

Young people are often absent without the permission of their parents, and parents are often frustrated by that, but it would add a level of anxiety if a parent was worried about their child having seizures of unknown cause. Plus, a perfectly wonderful child from a perfectly wonderful home could be annoyed at being hovered over, and decide to just not bother with the restrictions of worried parents.

And that kind of absence fits within the legal definition of "runaway". A child under the age of 18 whose parents/guardians do not know the location of such child, where the child is believed to have left the control of their guardian voluntarily without the consent of the parent/custodian.

Quite frankly, having raised three children, I never knew any families with runaways.

It sounds like there needed to be some kind of family discussion. Calling the police is very extreme. Why the chronic runaway?

And it says the parents thought that at age 13 she was doing some behavior that needed counseling and intervention,

Why the punitive approach? It is surprising Amy did not end up in court trouble with the police calks via parents
 
Apparently two miles.
To me, a couple of minutes. I wonder if the gas station bathroom required a key to get into. Many did.
Gas station bathrooms. Yuck

BBM
Agreed!
I would have kept going, even if I were cutting it very close and almost having an accident.
 
BBM
Agreed!
I would have kept going, even if I were cutting it very close and almost having an accident.
And those ones were COLD in the winter!

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 

Human, this is an example of what I am talking about. You link to an article that clearly states that the Maple Grove Transit System was created when Maple Grove "opted out" of the MetroTransit system. This does not mean that no busses went to Maple Grove before 1990. All it means is that before 1990 Maple Grove was under the MTC rather than it's own transit system.

It is clear from the article that you linked to, yet you just ignore that part, and your summary could be very misleading if the reader isn't diligent to look things up on their own. Either you didn't read carefully, didn't think it through to realize you needed to look further, or you just are very passionately committed to one particular theory of the case.

Of course, it is on everyone to look into things themselves, which is why I encourage people to look things up on their own, and to read up and investigate on their own rather than relying on just my memory...so I would caution people to follow the links and to really look into what people say a link means, and don't take just the newspapers account of things as gospel either. I have been in the room when a number of interviews happened, and what shows up on the page or on the screen sometimes bears no resemblance to what was actually said, or is only true in an unseen context.
 
Quite frankly, having raised three children, I never knew any families with runaways.

It sounds like there needed to be some kind of family discussion. Calling the police is very extreme. Why the chronic runaway?

And it says the parents thought that at age 13 she was doing some behavior that needed counseling and intervention,

Why the punitive approach? It is surprising Amy did not end up in court trouble with the police calks via parents

Again, Amy's parents contest Garland's interpretation of their concerns. They have said they don't even know why he would say they said such things. So I guess I am inclined to believe that someone knows what they said themselves.

It's not necessarily "punative" to call the police if you can't find your kid and believe that a medical condition they are suffering could put them in danger. In fact, it would be negligent not to.

The fact that this might technically be classified as a "runaway" situation, does not necessarily mean what people assume it means. After all, the officer has to put something down, and they don't necessarily do it right.

Having requested a few police reports, I've seen parental abduction reports classified as "suspicious incidences" instead of deprivation of parental rights, or parental abduction, and also no NCIC entries for runaways. There is a wide degree of variance in officer training from officer to officer, and from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
 
Quite frankly, having raised three children, I never knew any families with runaways.

It sounds like there needed to be some kind of family discussion. Calling the police is very extreme. Why the chronic runaway?

And it says the parents thought that at age 13 she was doing some behavior that needed counseling and intervention,

Why the punitive approach? It is surprising Amy did not end up in court trouble with the police calks via parents

I raised two children, and have had their friends show up at my house for "cooling off periods". I always made sure that they called their parents and told them where they were, and insisted that I talk with the parents to make sure that they were OK with their kids staying at our house after arguments.

Maybe none of the families you know were comfortable letting you know that they occasionally had family conflict because they felt you would judge them harshly and view their disagreements or conflicts with their children as abusive and suspicious even if it was normal range and they were using perfectly healthy parenting skills to address it?
 

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