MN MN - Amy Pagnac, 13, Osseo, 5 Aug 1989

[flourish]

Also, "you were told" doesn't cut it for good reasoning behind believing someone's information. It's right up there with, "because I said so." Gah!

 

[shadowdancer]

Whisper, I am going to be straight with you. I think you are clearly a member of Amy's family, given that you obviously have insider knowledge of this case, you only ever post on Amy's thread, and you have a great deal of personal emotion in your posts about Amy.

You don't have to reveal your identity if that's not what you want, but there is a verification process for insiders on cases, which you can go through if you are interested in doing that. If you want info on how to do that, you can ask me and I will point you in the right direction.

We just want to see Amy found, that's all. And we would like to see anyone who has been responsible for her disappearance brought to justice. We want to help you and the rest of Amy's loved ones to achieve resolution in this case.

Have a look at some of the other threads in Websleuths. As flourish posted earlier, there are lots of great sleuthers on here who you could have at your disposal to help you. Check out the Anna Christian Waters subforum to see how members on here have put in a lot of hard work to help the family of a missing child. We could try and do the same for you and Amy's family, but you have to be willing to let us.

Please accept this post in the spirit it is intended - a genuine desire to help find Amy.

 

[flourish]

Hello everyone.
I'm Amy's sister. Yes there were camera's at the gas station, however during the initial investigation, the police never obtained copies of the footage. Yes, they were able to verify my father was at the gas station, and yes, they were able to verify they left the farm. The gas station is near the middle of town on the main street. it is a very small town, main street is about 4 blocks long, and there are mostly businesses along the main street with residential homes behind it. The area was not very developed at the time, and there were significant areas of farmland around, corn fields specifically.

Thank you for starting this thread and looking into my sister's disappearance.
No, my father, or any of my family, myself included (yes, I was 8 at the time), has been cleared of wrong-doing in this case. In my opinion, much of this case has been mishandled, and vital information, such as gas station footage, has been forever lost.
Recently, the Maple Grove police has renewed their efforts, and for that I applaude them. Unfortunately, it appears thier focus lies soley on my family and foul play. I am not aware if they looked into the sighting in MI. They tapped our phones and put us under surveillance - over twenty years after the occurance. Their equipment has yet to be removed. When they questioned my father, who has a severe allergy to latex and was later found to have significant heart diease requiring open heart surgery, they placed him in a warm room, using latex materials, and when he complained of feeling light-headed, short of breath, ignored it as a medical concern and took those very real physical symptoms as proof of his guilt. While I can understand their mistake in this matter, it makes me very upset that they would treat a victim's family member as such. Representatives interviewed by local newsstations have stated the investigation is on hold because we are not cooperating. Considering the major medical conditions, and the physical stressors caused by them, and their very recent methods of how they want us to cooperate, we are literaly unable to without significant injury to health.
I'm sure that I will upset a few people with this post, I do not mean to, but it is extremely frustrating to be put in such a position that we need to choose between the current health and well-being of my mother and father, or the police continuing their investigation into my sister's disappearance. It is a horrible choice and saddens me beyond words.
I want to thank you all again for keeping Amy in your thoughts. I hope you can help in any way possible. It tears at my heart to feel like there is nothing formally being done, but your time and energy is an amazing gift.

Thank you all

Just bumping this interesting post from someone who says they are Amy's sister. They might be, in not implying they aren't, but this is the internet.
It's very interesting to me that she says her parents'health would be in jeopardy if they cooperated the way the police wanted? I wish I knew more about what is meant by that? Like, the stress it causes? I find those statements very curious.

 

[flourish]

I didn't hear that. This article published today says LE has been excavating the yard today.

I don't know. I've never liked the seemingly total lack of...anything..on the part of her parents in seeking justice for Amy. I know people react differently to these tragedies, so I'll wait and see.

Also, wth is with the statement about the unicorn drawing? She gave it to LE hoping it could help them?

http://m.twincities.com/twincities/db_39829/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=4oV50IOD

This link doesn't work anymore. Does anyone know what this unicorn thing is about?

Also I'm certain this has been posted already, but this is a recent article, with an interview with Amy's mom.

"Pagnac: 'We need justice! Amy needs justice. The community needs justice.'"

http://www.kare11.com/news/maple-gr...or-daughter-missing-almost-27-years/215264137

Also I'm curious about the different last names. Mom and Amy share a last name but dad has a different one. IDK about the sister. It's not like, significant, I'm just curious.

 

[flourish]

Found the unicorn thing.

"But she’s been a “pain in the *advertiser censored*” to Maple Grove police, Pagnac said, urging them to keep her daughter’s case alive.

That included last year, when Pagnac handed over a drawing her daughter had done of a unicorn. It had been hanging in the family home since 1989.

“She was so happy … I got her the tape to put it up on her wall,” Pagnac said. “I says … I told them they could … just don’t destroy it. It’s one of the few memories I have."

http://www.twincities.com/2014/05/1...olice-step-up-probe-her-mother-still-wonders/

 

[flourish]

I'm not sure if this helps at all, but the poster who said she's Amy's sister (on page one of this thread) said this about the (step?)father having medical problems...

Recently, the Maple Grove police has renewed their efforts, and for that I applaude them. Unfortunately, it appears thier focus lies soley on my family and foul play. I am not aware if they looked into the sighting in MI. They tapped our phones and put us under surveillance - over twenty years after the occurance. Their equipment has yet to be removed. When they questioned my father, who has a severe allergy to latex and was later found to have significant heart diease requiring open heart surgery, they placed him in a warm room, using latex materials, and when he complained of feeling light-headed, short of breath, ignored it as a medical concern and took those very real physical symptoms as proof of his guilt. While I can understand their mistake in this matter, it makes me very upset that they would treat a victim's family member as such. Representatives interviewed by local newsstations have stated the investigation is on hold because we are not cooperating. Considering the major medical conditions, and the physical stressors caused by them, and their very recent methods of how they want us to cooperate, we are literaly unable to without significant injury to health. ​

I'm sorry to be such a thread hog tonight. But when I reread from this post, I realized what she's saying is that police interviewed the father in a room containing latex, knowing he's allergic to latex, so if police's definition of "cooperation" is "sitting in room with your allergen" then her parents are faced with an unreasonable decision.

Is that an accurate take on it?

Google offers more information on the dad and his... health issues.

 

[Whisper2112]

Whisper, I am going to be straight with you. I think you are clearly a member of Amy's family, given that you obviously have insider knowledge of this case, you only ever post on Amy's thread, and you have a great deal of personal emotion in your posts about Amy.

You don't have to reveal your identity if that's not what you want, but there is a verification process for insiders on cases, which you can go through if you are interested in doing that. If you want info on how to do that, you can ask me and I will point you in the right direction.

We just want to see Amy found, that's all. And we would like to see anyone who has been responsible for her disappearance brought to justice. We want to help you and the rest of Amy's loved ones to achieve resolution in this case.

Have a look at some of the other threads in Websleuths. As flourish posted earlier, there are lots of great sleuthers on here who you could have at your disposal to help you. Check out the Anna Christian Waters subforum to see how members on here have put in a lot of hard work to help the family of a missing child. We could try and do the same for you and Amy's family, but you have to be willing to let us.

Please accept this post in the spirit it is intended - a genuine desire to help find Amy.

I'm not a member of Amy's family. And it seems odd to think that only Amy's family members could want to see the things they say portrayed accurately. I don't participate in other threads, because I have not seen any other Minnesota cases where the family is treated this way by they are in this public forum. I feel passionate because I do know some of the people who have supported the family in a search capacity from the beginning, and know that there are some pretty mean people out there, and some of them were mean to Amy before she disappeared.

I don't need special "insider" status to call out bullying when I see it.

Amy is not going to be found this way. What Amy needs is for people to spread the word. When you have people saying they left Amy home alone (when they didn't), that they never worked with organizations to find Amy (they did) that they didn't inform the police about tips (they did inform the police of anything they knew)...well, people are not going to be interested in a case that has that kind of controversy.

We need people to understand that Amy is worth finding and her family deserves help and compassion. We don't need them hearing false stuff about alien landing pads and people speculating about horrible innuendo that they have zero evidence for.

Share the case, let people know Amy is missing, let them know that the family has never stopped looking. They have worked with several missing child organizations, they have attended numerous conferences on Missing Persons, they have worked through civic organizations to educate people about the issues. They have called the press and the police on important dates like May 25th, Amy's birthday, the anniversary of Amy's disappearance, etc to remind them that there is still a need for Amy's story to be told. They have asked the Missing Person's organizations to issue press releases on those dates as well...and they have tried to help and support other families of missing kids.

They miss Amy, They have always missed Amy, they tried to find her from day one, and they have never stopped. They never abandoned Amy, and they never will. And I will help them any way I can, including continuing to tell the truth about them.

 

[Whisper2112]

I'm sorry to be such a thread hog tonight. But when I reread from this post, I realized what she's saying is that police interviewed the father in a room containing latex, knowing he's allergic to latex, so if police's definition of "cooperation" is "sitting in room with your allergen" then her parents are faced with an unreasonable decision.

Is that an accurate take on it?

Google offers more information on the dad and his... health issues.

I think it's also significant to note that they interviewed him in a state of physical distress due to these conditions, and still found no reason to consider him a suspect or person of interest. Interviewing someone while they are in physical duress is considered a very effective way to get someone to say whatever they need to, to get the interview to end or to screw up their "story". I don't think Susan implied that the police knew he had a latex allergy, or a heart condition. Only that they interpreted his distress as guilt initially.

Given that the timeline established, at least in part, by the gas receipt and the witness who saw them leave the farm was consistent with Amy's father's account of the trip, it seems less likely that the story is false, given the difficulty of being interviewed while in physical duress.

Also, I think that Captain Lindquist's statement that the family has always been cooperative with MGPD (given in an interview after the last search in 2014) kind of contradicts the idea that they were not cooperating. Being physically unable to attend an interview is different than refusing to attend an interview.

 

[flourish]

Hello everyone.
I'm Amy's sister. Yes there were camera's at the gas station, however during the initial investigation, the police never obtained copies of the footage. Yes, they were able to verify my father was at the gas station, and yes, they were able to verify they left the farm. The gas station is near the middle of town on the main street. it is a very small town, main street is about 4 blocks long, and there are mostly businesses along the main street with residential homes behind it. The area was not very developed at the time, and there were significant areas of farmland around, corn fields specifically.

Thank you for starting this thread and looking into my sister's disappearance.
No, my father, or any of my family, myself included (yes, I was 8 at the time), has been cleared of wrong-doing in this case. In my opinion, much of this case has been mishandled, and vital information, such as gas station footage, has been forever lost.
Recently, the Maple Grove police has renewed their efforts, and for that I applaude them. Unfortunately, it appears thier focus lies soley on my family and foul play. I am not aware if they looked into the sighting in MI. They tapped our phones and put us under surveillance - over twenty years after the occurance. Their equipment has yet to be removed. When they questioned my father, who has a severe allergy to latex and was later found to have significant heart diease requiring open heart surgery, they placed him in a warm room, using latex materials, and when he complained of feeling light-headed, short of breath, ignored it as a medical concern and took those very real physical symptoms as proof of his guilt. While I can understand their mistake in this matter, it makes me very upset that they would treat a victim's family member as such. Representatives interviewed by local newsstations have stated the investigation is on hold because we are not cooperating. Considering the major medical conditions, and the physical stressors caused by them, and their very recent methods of how they want us to cooperate, we are literaly unable to without significant injury to health.
I'm sure that I will upset a few people with this post, I do not mean to, but it is extremely frustrating to be put in such a position that we need to choose between the current health and well-being of my mother and father, or the police continuing their investigation into my sister's disappearance. It is a horrible choice and saddens me beyond words.
I want to thank you all again for keeping Amy in your thoughts. I hope you can help in any way possible. It tears at my heart to feel like there is nothing formally being done, but your time and energy is an amazing gift.

Thank you all

This post mentions the latex allergy. It was made by someone purporting to be Amy's sister.

 

[Whisper2112]

Hey there Whisper. I was reading back through the thread and this post caught my eye. Do you have a MSM link for this info.? I ask because this is the first I have heard that the P.I.'s had any affiliation with Missing Children Minnesota.

That came from a post by Amy's mom. Trying to remember the exact wording, maybe I can hunt it down. I don't think Missing Children Minnesota was particularly named, come to think about it. It was "A Missing Children Organization" that she said they wee working with, and in 1989, the only one in Minnesota was Missing Children Minnesota. It might be possible that she was referring to the National Center. But again, it's not like they are careless about who they work with either.

 

[Whisper2112]

Also, "you were told" doesn't cut it for good reasoning behind believing someone's information. It's right up there with, "because I said so." Gah!

Well, it was intended more in the mood of "you were answered", and it's true, that nobody is requred to believe the family is telling the truth. But when someone complains that they asked for informaiton in a way that implies they were not answered, it is a little disengenuous when they know that they were, in fact answered, and just didn't accept the answer.

And, if what the family says is true is not going to be accepted as the truth unless they reveal information that the police have not made public, that isn't worth it. It's best to stick with the professionals and trust that they know what they are doing when they decide what information is necessary for the public to help, and what isn't. That just makes good sense, and I don't blame them a bit.

 

[Whisper2112]

This is a place to put out information.

If someone has credible information such as the PI report, why is it being kept secret and comments made to call the police department? I do not understand how that is helping anyone

Well, as stated, the PI gave his report to the Maple Grove PD, and it was Lt. Markgraf of the MGPD that told the family about the report. So, clearly, the only people who have the PI report is the MGPD.

How can someone produce a report that they have never physically had? Who else would you call other than the people who have it? How is this so difficult to understand? IF you want to know what the PI told the police, and you don't accept an account of what the family knows as the truth (minus a couple of details that they know and cannot share because they were told not to share them) then you will have to ask the people who know, which is the MGPD.

It's unreasonable to expect a family to go against the instructions of their investigators, and it's unreasonable to expect them to produce items and information that they don't have, and have never had.

You have also asked what did Law Enforcement do to follow up on that tip, and what did they find? Well, clearly, since LE has not made that information public, they don't want the public to know what they did to follow up, or what they found. And that would make sense because why would you put out information like that to the public and tip off the people likely responsible for Amy's disappearance about what you know and how you know it?

 

[Jbrown324320]

a large majority of missing children are murdered by their family or caretaker. the police have to start with the inner circle, then go out to other possible suspects. if they have not been able to clear the father (who is close family AND the last person to see her), it is difficult to investigate other possibilities. the parents of missing children do get a large amount of scrutiny. And I feel bad when they are subjected to that treatment and are innocent, but not all are.

 

[human]

I do not see any information that can help. Putting posters of Amy, where? She was perhaps seen on the West Coast and at a strip club.

I am looking through my eyes for sure. I cannot fathom why this info is not out there. How can Amy be found when the idea seems to be to look for the needle in a not identified haystack, There is no information provided whatsoever.

 

[Faithandhope]

All I want to say is that while I think it's likely that the posters who say they are members of Amy's family, are telling the truth... I think per "TOS"/websleuths rules/culture... we aren't supposed to believe anyone who claims insider info without an official verification...

So if someone claiming to be a relative of Amy, but does not have verification with websleuths, it is RUMOR until otherwise noted. This is to be of NO offense to the posters, just protocol that keeps a discussion moving forward on real info.

 

[Damarna]

All I want to say is that while I think it's likely that the posters who say they are members of Amy's family, are telling the truth... I think per "TOS"/websleuths rules/culture... we aren't supposed to believe anyone who claims insider info without an official verification...

So if someone claiming to be a relative of Amy, but does not have verification with websleuths, it is RUMOR until otherwise noted. This is to be of NO offense to the posters, just protocol that keeps a discussion moving forward on real info.

Indeed and thank you. Ultimately we are here to bring Amy home.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[Alleykins]

After a couple of unpleasant experiences with people claiming to have an "in" with family or LE on some high profile cases on other forums, but really didn't, I'm glad WS verifies. One thing that really bothers me are people who claim to be "in the know" and won't share. My take on that is, if someone knows something we don't, they shouldn't mention they know something we don't, unless they're willing to share.
Disclaimer: I am not saying this is the case here, and this is definitely not directed toward anyone on this site. I'm just sharing my experiences from the past.

 

[BethAnn777]

Has anyone submitted an FOIA request to try to obtain more information? I am very curious to see the complete initial police report. I have only seen pieces of it on a Facebook page. The Facebook page is found by searching "Where is Amy Sue Pagnac". I called the Maple Grove PD and asked them if signatures were required on police reports back in 1989 and the officer that I spoke to stated that a signature by the person filing the report, either Marshall or Susan, would have been required. Of course she wouldn't comment specially on Amy's case since it is an open case and an ongoing investigation. I just can't imagine that either of them would have signed a report riddled with errors.

 

[flourish]

Has anyone submitted an FOIA request to try to obtain more information? I am very curious to see the complete initial police report. I have only seen pieces of it on a Facebook page. The Facebook page is found by searching "Where is Amy Sue Pagnac". I called the Maple Grove PD and asked them if signatures were required on police reports back in 1989 and the officer that I spoke to stated that a signature by the person filing the report, either Marshall or Susan, would have been required. Of course she wouldn't comment specially on Amy's case since it is an open case and an ongoing investigation. I just can't imagine that either of them would have signed a report riddled with errors.

I haven't. I don't know how to go about it, and I'm a poor person who couldn't afford postage to send it anyway lol.

But, dontcha know, the initial police report is wrong! So many things are just "wrong" in this case that it makes it difficult to ascertain what is truth. So, while I personally would love to read primary sources, we'd just be told they're wrong and we're stupid for believing them. Scroll up if you don't get what I'm talking about.

If anyone gets them, though, please do post it all. I'm poor, but reading I can do for free and I'm a quick reader, so I'd volunteer.

ETA: geez, flourish, way to boast about your reading skills when you didn't read the entire post apparently!

Yes! Signatures! Brilliant! Excellent point!

 

[BethAnn777]

I haven't. I don't know how to go about it, and I'm a poor person who couldn't afford postage to send it anyway lol.

But, dontcha know, the initial police report is wrong! So many things are just "wrong" in this case that it makes it difficult to ascertain what is truth. So, while I personally would love to read primary sources, we'd just be told they're wrong and we're stupid for believing them. Scroll up if you don't get what I'm talking about.

If anyone gets them, though, please do post it all. I'm poor, but reading I can do for free and I'm a quick reader, so I'd volunteer.

ETA: geez, flourish, way to boast about your reading skills when you didn't read the entire post apparently!

Yes! Signatures! Brilliant! Excellent point!

I will wait a bit to see if anyone else responds who may have already done an FOIA request. I can do that if need be. I definitely hear you about being told everything is wrong. But if that police report is signed by either mom or dad there is no possible way it's wrong.