MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 *officers charged* #3

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With this logic, why bother with trials at all? I hope that the jurors chosen have not already decided this case.

Media bias aside, can we at least agree that Officer Chauvin is "Innocent, until proven guilty"?

I think it’s really important to understand what the phrase “innocent until proven guilty” really means.
It has nothing to do with our discussion here.

“Innocent until proven guilty” (aka presumption of innocence) is a legal principle that means that the burden of proof rests with the prosecution during a trial. The defendant is not required to prove innocence. Obviously, there is enough evidence of a crime (presumption of guilt) for the defendant to be arrested and brought to trial. But once the trial begins, the defendant is presumed innocent. That principle serves the purpose of keeping all involved in the trial focused on the necessity of proving and deciding guilt “beyond a reasonable doubt.”

But the legal principle of “innocent until proven guilty” is not relevant to opinions outside the courtroom. Having opinions about Mr Chauvin’s guilt does not mean we don’t believe in trials. I too hope the jurors will keep an open mind and abide by the legal principle that Mr Chauvin is “innocent until proven guilty.” He deserves a fair trial. That’s a fundamental right. But expressing strong opinions about Mr Chauvin’s guilt on this thread is neither a violation of the legal principle “innocent until proven guilty” nor of TOS.
JMO
Innocent until proven guilty
 
No. 2: White man, 20s
He described himself as a chemist and environmental studies scientist who said he typically views life through an analytical lens.

Defense attorney Eric Nelson asked him to expand on some of the answers he gave on his written questionnaire, particularly a question concerning Black Lives Matter.

“I support the message that every life should matter equally,” the juror said. “I don’t believe that the organization Black Lives Matter necessarily stands for that.”

The juror was also asked to expand on answers he gave about disparities in policing and about the criminal justice system. He said he doesn’t necessarily think Minneapolis police are more likely to use force against Black people than they would against others.

However, he said he believes the criminal justice system is biased against racial and ethnic minorities. He said there was a lot of evidence to support that opinion.

No. 9: Multi/mixed race woman, 20s
She describes herself as easygoing, and a mediator among her friends.

In her questionnaire, she said she had somewhat negative impressions of Chauvin, but that she could keep an open mind and be fair. She also said she believes the Black Lives Matter movement, along with Blue Lives Matter, has turned into a disingenuous marketing scheme for corporations.

She has an uncle who’s a police officer in central Minnesota, but said that wouldn't affect her opinion.

When the judge told her she was chosen, she said, "Awesome."

No. 19: White man, 30s
He said he’s in client services and has had to resolve conflicts before.

In his questionnaire, he indicated his view of Chauvin was “somewhat negative” because he didn’t resuscitate Floyd, and that he supports Black Lives Matter in a general context. He also said he has some unfavorable views of Blue Lives Matter.

He said he has a “friend of a friend” who is a Minneapolis K-9 officer but that he hasn’t spoken to him about the case or seen him since the pandemic.

He said he’s seen the bystander video about two or three times, not in full, as part of news articles.

No. 27: Black man, 30s
He told the court he came to the United States 14 years ago, speaks multiple languages, works in information technology and is married.

Nelson asked the juror about an answer he provided on the written questionnaire about the death of Floyd. “And you said, ‘It could have been me or anyone else.' Can you explain that a little?” asked Nelson.

“It could have been anybody. It could have been you,” replied the juror. “I also used to live not far from that area (38th Street and Chicago Avenue in south Minneapolis) when I first met my wife. So that is why I said it could have been me. It could have been anybody.”

Asked if he had any particular opinions about the Minneapolis Police Department or law enforcement in general, the man said he did not. The juror also said he felt somewhat supportive of both Black Lives Matter and Blue Lives Matter.

“And you wrote that you believe ‘our cops need to be safe and feel and be safe to protect our community,’” Nelson read from the juror’s questionnaire. “Correct,” said the juror.

No. 44: White woman, 50s
The court held part of her questioning without audio while they discussed a sensitive matter with the juror. She later said in her work for a nonprofit advocacy group, she’s had contact with Attorney General Keith Ellison.

When asked if she felt that would jeopardize her ability to be an impartial juror, she said no.

Nelson asked the juror about her answers on the jury questionnaire pertaining to the treatment of people of color by the criminal justice system.

“I do believe there’s bias,” said the woman. “I’ve seen it in my work.”

The woman also said had formed a somewhat negative opinion of Chauvin. But she said she had sympathy and empathy, not only for Floyd, but for the officers involved.

“Everyone’s lives are changed by this incident and what happened. Everyone’s lives,” she said. “And it’s not easy. For anyone.”

No. 52: Black man, 30s
He said he works in the banking industry and is a youth sports coach.

In his questionnaire, he said he was neutral on Chauvin and Floyd. He said he had seen the video and has wondered why the other officers didn’t intervene.

Prosecutor Steve Schleicher questioned one of the juror's statements made during questioning by the defense. The man had said he didn’t think anyone had the intent to cause Floyd’s death.

Schleicher said Chauvin’s intentions will be contested during the trial and asked him if he’d have a problem setting aside his opinion.

“I don’t think it would be that difficult at all,” he said. “I think I can definitely look at it with an objective point of view.”

No. 55: White woman, 50s
She said she works in health care as an executive assistant.

The juror said she couldn’t watch the full video because she found it too disturbing.

She also said in her questionnaire she has a somewhat negative opinion of Chauvin but that he’s innocent until proven otherwise.

She said she has a somewhat unfavorable opinion of Black Lives Matter, acknowledging that she perceives it to possibly mean that other lives don’t matter. She wrote on her questionnaire, “I believe all lives matter,” according to notes from the pool reporter.

No. 79: Black man, 40s
He said he works in management capacity, and that he has not formed an opinion about who is responsible for Floyd’s death.

In his questionnaire, he said he had a neutral opinion of Chauvin and a “somewhat positive” impression of Floyd.

He said he strongly disagreed with defunding police, noting that his house was burglarized once and he had to call the police. The man said he immigrated to the United States.

No. 85: Multi/mixed race woman, 40s
She said she works in organizational management.

In responses to the court, she said was always taught to respect police but added that she wouldn't have trouble second-guessing their decisions if needed.

“Police officers are human,” she said. “They’re not robots that are programmed to all behave in the exact same way. So I feel like as humans, they can make mistakes as well.”

No. 89: White woman, 50s
She said she’s a cardiac care nurse who lives in the suburbs.

She was questioned in depth about her medical training and whether she would second-guess police on resuscitation efforts. She was also asked whether she would reference her nursing experience during deliberations. She said she could avoid it, and would not act as an expert during deliberations.

“I think I can be impartial and listen to instructions and go with what I’m given and ignore the outside stuff,” she said.

No. 91: Black woman, 60s
She said she’s retired from a job in marketing, and that she has a degree in psychology. She volunteers with underserved youth. She grew up in south Minneapolis near where Floyd died.

She said she watched a few minutes of the bystander video of Floyd’s arrest before shutting it off.

She has a relative who is a Minneapolis police officer but they are not close.

She said she believes Blacks and whites do not receive equal treatment, noting that a white U.S. Capitol riot suspect was allowed to go on vacation in Mexico after she was charged.

She said she doesn’t follow the news closely and does not know enough yet to judge the case one way or another.

No. 92: White woman, 40s
She said she works in communications, and has been with the same company for 15 years.

She disagrees with defunding the police but believes change is needed based on what she's seen in media coverage of racism.

She noted somewhat negative views of both Chauvin and Floyd, that she didn’t believe Floyd deserved to die, and that police used excessive force. But she also noted she didn’t think Floyd was innocent either, according to notes from a pool reporter.

She said she understands there are reasons people struggle with addiction.

No. 96: White woman, 50s
She described herself as an animal lover who is passionate about advocacy for affordable housing and homelessness. She told the court said she recently resigned from her customer service-related job. The juror noted she feels like she is good at de-escalating conflicts and getting both sides to come together for a resolution.

She said she had seen video clips of the bystander video a few times and is also aware of the $27 million settlement.

In her questionnaire, she wrote that the restraint used on Floyd was “ultimately responsible” for his death, but under questioning she acknowledged that was her assumption based on what she had seen. She acknowledged the video may not show the entirety of what happened.

No. 118: White woman, 20s
The juror is a social worker who has relatives who are nurses.

In her line of work, she's had to call the police to remove unruly people. When asked by the prosecution if she's ever seen someone not comply with the police, she said she has not. Schleicher, the prosecutor, wondered if she would blame a person who doesn't comply with police for injuries resulting from a police encounter. She said everyone needs to be treated with respect even if they are suspected of a crime.

She disagrees with defunding police, but under questioning about police reform said that “there are good things and things that should be changed.”

The juror said she’s discussed the case with family members, including one who said they thought Chauvin should not have kept his knee on Floyd's neck for that long.

She said her decision regarding a verdict would not affect her relationship with family and she wouldn't feel the need to justify it. She said she's curious to hear more about police training that may have influenced how the encounter unfolded.

No. 131: White man, 20s
He described himself as an accountant and a sports fan. When asked by Schleicher about his opinion on athletes who “take a knee” during the national anthem, the man said, “I would prefer if someone would express their beliefs in a different manner. But I understand what they are trying to do and raise the dialogue on certain issues.”

The man said that after watching the bystander video from May 25, 2020, he felt like Chauvin’s use of force lasted too long.

He said he generally believes racial minorities are treated unfairly by the criminal justice system.

He strongly disagrees with the notion of defunding the Minneapolis Police Department. “I believe the force is a necessary and integral part of our society,” he said.

The man will be dismissed if none of the other jurors drop out by Monday, when opening statements begin.


Great post on the complete background on jurors. I went to post #1 on this thread to find the link to the media thread to add this post, but I don't see such listed nor can I find using search feature. Am I missing such and TIA if someone can post a link to a "Media Only thread" if such exists.

Can the link be added to post #1 on each of the threads as we move forward @Sillybilly @JerseyGirl, or can we create a media thread if there isn't one. Thanks!
 
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I think it’s really important to understand what the phrase “innocent until proven guilty” really means.
It has nothing to do with our discussion here.

“Innocent until proven guilty” (aka presumption of innocence) is a legal principle that means that the burden of proof rests with the prosecution during a trial. The defendant is not required to prove innocence. Obviously, there is enough evidence of a crime (presumption of guilt) for the defendant to be arrested and brought to trial. But once the trial begins, the defendant is presumed innocent. That principle serves the purpose of keeping all involved in the trial focused on the necessity of proving and deciding guilt “beyond a reasonable doubt.”

But the legal principle of “innocent until proven guilty” is not relevant to opinions outside the courtroom. Having opinions about Mr Chauvin’s guilt does not mean we don’t believe in trials. I too hope the jurors will keep an open mind and abide by the legal principle that Mr Chauvin is “innocent until proven guilty.” He deserves a fair trial. That’s a fundamental right. But expressing strong opinions about Mr Chauvin’s guilt on this thread is neither a violation of the legal principle “innocent until proven guilty” nor of TOS.
JMO
Innocent until proven guilty

Great primer for those new to WS and following trials here at WS @Lilibet so folks have an understanding.

And to add to such, of which charge is one thinking he may be considered now or for trial guilty. When it's espoused on these WS threads that someone thinks a defendant is guilty, and they have multiple charges, I always ask in my mind "which charge are you referring to". Same thoughts with this case.

My opinion on such has been jumping all around which one I'm leaning to in the past month. As stated before, yes.... I think he's guilty... but of what.. I won't have a strong conviction of my opinion until the end of the trial as to if/which charge he's guilty of in the court of law vs. court of public/WS opinion (with proper charge instructions to refer to).
 
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My opinion on such has been jumping all around which one I'm leaning to in the past month. As stated before, yes.... I think he's guilty... but of what.. I won't have a strong conviction of my opinion until the end of the trial as to if/which charge he's guilty of in the court of law vs. court of public/WS opinion (with proper charge instructions to refer to).

I’m with you on being unsure which charge he will be found guilty of in court. We won’t know until we know. And it’s always possible he will be found not guilty and we will all be as furious as we were when Casey Anthony or O.J. walked! The jury system is imperfect, but it’s the best we’ve got. If a prosecutor doesn’t convince the jury of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, he either had a weak case or presented a strong one poorly. And I think there is sometimes a difference between a “not guilty” verdict in court and the defendant being truly “innocent.” JMO
 
For me these cop trials come down to an inexcusable level of indifference from the cop. It’s evident in this case. It was evident in Jason Van Dyke with his 16 shots fired. I mean.....I am astounded how regular people can see these events and not be horrified by the disregard shown to the suspect. There are no throwaway people. The poor, mentally unwell, addicted to drugs, homeless, prostitutes are not throwaway people. Their deaths are not freebies. The argument that cops have a difficult/dangerous job just doesn’t cut it. So to my mind Chauvin is guilty of manslaughter based on the body worn cameras.

Once the elements of the murder charges are fleshed out, we’ll have a better sense of whether he’s guilty of those charges as well. But from what I’ve read and posted, I think what Chauvin did could be interpreted as assault and the 2nd degree murder could stick.
 
RSBM
Once the elements of the murder charges are fleshed out, we’ll have a better sense of whether he’s guilty of those charges as well. But from what I’ve read and posted, I think what Chauvin did could be interpreted as assault and the 2nd degree murder could stick.

I find myself during these down days of no court that my mind wanders to self check my biases, as we all have biases MOO.

Just now, was trying to check my bias by thinking and asking

  • "would my opinion be different if it was 4 black LE on white person with Floyd's background"
  • "LE is trained to help folks in distress..did LE have a bias as to utilizing their training in this situation"
  • "LE is trained MOO that they are to shoot to kill if they take a shot.. yet for the mass murderer in Colorado he had just one shot to his leg and was "perp walked" out in his underwear. How does this compare as an example of allowable force"
Some thoughts may "not be allowed" for jury deliberations... but that is where I'm at this moment.
 
@dixiegirl1035 My opinion would be the same if the races were reversed. For me it’s a question of who has the power. Chauvin had the power over Floyd just like now the prosecutors/city officials/feds have power over him. And we are all concerned about him being treated fairly. IMO, Floyd wasn’t given that same respect and dignity.

And I agree, the mass shooters overall have lived to have their day in court. But a drug addicted, whiny, non-compliant but not threatening man was restrained for almost 9 minutes and died. “Oh well he should’ve complied” is not good enough. By far! JMO.
 
He wasn't complaining, they restraint them; so far so good.
They knelt on his neck while he was already in cuffs and face down. Not good.
They kept going for long enough for him to pass out, then some more until he died. Outright criminal.

In what is just my opinion but also an educated guess from what I've read about Minnesota Law and my own Law School studies, I could probably infer intent to kill from Chauvin's actions and definitely can infer he caused his death without intent but by an "eminently dangerous act and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life" 2020 Minnesota statutes Sec 609.195 a)
So it will be either 2nd or 3rd degree murder IMO
 
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I find myself during these down days of no court that my mind wanders to self check my biases, as we all have biases MOO.

Just now, was trying to check my bias by thinking and asking

  • "would my opinion be different if it was 4 black LE on white person with Floyd's background"
  • "LE is trained to help folks in distress..did LE have a bias as to utilizing their training in this situation"
  • "LE is trained MOO that they are to shoot to kill if they take a shot.. yet for the mass murderer in Colorado he had just one shot to his leg and was "perp walked" out in his underwear. How does this compare as an example of allowable force"
Some thoughts may "not be allowed" for jury deliberations... but that is where I'm at this moment.
I ask myself why the Media is portraying us as a "racist" country, and twisting news coverage to project that.
Cops are trained to stop a threat by aiming for the center mass of a body. They are not trained to shoot someone in the leg. My opinion is the only reason this guy in Colorado was shot in the leg, was because the cop that shot him missed his target. IMO, that's the only reason. It doesn't make sense to me that any cop that arrives on a scene, and sees not only threat to him, but to a hundred other people is going to take the time to make sure he just wounds the guy, giving him the opportunity to continue shooting.
I don't believe anything I see/hear from the media. They have nothing to base the assumption that this cop was trying to protect a white guy. No facts at all.
 
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I've been listening in on the jury selection, and must admit... While I tend to be a very analytical thinker, and do think I'd be able to make fair and impartial decisions, based solely on what's presented in the courtroom, I'd never be selected if I were to answer all questions honestly. I could not say that I can 'presume innocence' in this case, having watched the bystander video. I'd certainly be able to keep an open mind to additional information that we've not yet been made aware, but, assuming that video will become part of evidence, I cannot imagine that any of those jurors who've seen the look on DC's face while he had Mr. Floyd pinned down ~ long after he became unresponsive ~ are being truthful in their response to that specific question from defense counsel.
 
I don't see intent to kill.

When DC began kneeling on GF's neck, I doubt he possessed the goal or desire to end a life.

I think DC got caught up in his own power, pride and desire to control. There may even have been a "high" associated from inflicting pain and terror on his subject. Perhaps GF experienced this feeling in previous violent arrests and welcomed back the thill.

I am just thinking aloud here and stating a "perhaps". Early on I had an opinion of DC's guilt. The opinion has been replaced with bewilderment.
 
Sorry correction to my above post. I meant "Perhaps DC experienced this feeling.........."

If you look at the bottom of your post you'll see the option to edit your post for about 1 hour after you post it.
Edit.jpg
 
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For me these cop trials come down to an inexcusable level of indifference from the cop. It’s evident in this case. It was evident in Jason Van Dyke with his 16 shots fired. I mean.....I am astounded how regular people can see these events and not be horrified by the disregard shown to the suspect. There are no throwaway people. The poor, mentally unwell, addicted to drugs, homeless, prostitutes are not throwaway people. Their deaths are not freebies. The argument that cops have a difficult/dangerous job just doesn’t cut it. So to my mind Chauvin is guilty of manslaughter based on the body worn cameras.

Once the elements of the murder charges are fleshed out, we’ll have a better sense of whether he’s guilty of those charges as well. But from what I’ve read and posted, I think what Chauvin did could be interpreted as assault and the 2nd degree murder could stick.
I am one of those regular ppl you mention in your comment. I wasn't affected by what the media wanted me to see or feel, but hey that's just me & moo. I try and take a neutral stance in matters like this.
 
For me these cop trials come down to an inexcusable level of indifference from the cop. It’s evident in this case. It was evident in Jason Van Dyke with his 16 shots fired. I mean.....I am astounded how regular people can see these events and not be horrified by the disregard shown to the suspect. There are no throwaway people. The poor, mentally unwell, addicted to drugs, homeless, prostitutes are not throwaway people. Their deaths are not freebies. The argument that cops have a difficult/dangerous job just doesn’t cut it. So to my mind Chauvin is guilty of manslaughter based on the body worn cameras.

Once the elements of the murder charges are fleshed out, we’ll have a better sense of whether he’s guilty of those charges as well. But from what I’ve read and posted, I think what Chauvin did could be interpreted as assault and the 2nd degree murder could stick.

I've watched the video several times of Chauvin kneeling on George Floyd's neck. Chauvin's demeanor during that time was of the same casualness of someone kneeling on a water hose while someone went to turn off the tap. Everything about DC's demeanor was indifference; indifference to the crowd's entreaties to stop, to his fellow officer's suggestion to turn him on his side, to GF's laboured breathing; he basically didn't give a s***. That's the difference between manslaughter and murder, depraved indifference.

I live in Canada and like legions of my fellow countrymen I was horrified at the event. Millions of people the world over were horrified at the event. The suggestion that GF had passed a counterfeit bill isn't worthy of a death sentence. Neither is being under the influence of drugs, legal or illegal. Not even that he had priors.

Sometimes the mission statement 'to serve and protect' refers to the 'bad guys' too. It appears to me the problem with cops like DC is he no longer sees his community as worthy of protection.

A few years ago in Toronto we had a situation where a cop shot a young man 8 times because he was 'in fear of his life'. The young man in question was Sammy Yatim. He'd threatened people on a streetcar with a knife. Everybody got off the streetcar, he was alone. You can can lock a streetcar from the outside so Yatim wasn't going anywhere. There was time to call a specialist to talk down the person, call his parents, just let him chill. But no, Forcillo the cop went into the streetcar and shot him 9 nines. When asked by the prosecution why he didn't de-escalate the situation he said pulling his weapon was a form of de-escalation. Well, Forcillo was convicted of attempted murder instead of 2nd degree murder. He lost his appeal and served 2 years of a 6 year sentence. Mr. Forcillo's conviction reflected his interpretation of de-escalating the situation was deeply flawed. It appears to me so was Derek Chauvin's. IMO MOO
 
WS PSA

In preparation for live streaming daily for 4 weeks or more for this trial, I just went to check if I could computer/phone wifi live stream on my plan with Comcast and not get charged (been there, done that... where I was shocked at my overage bill during a trial years ago and learned a very expensive lesson!)

Anyhoo, just a shout out to other to check theirs if in doubt, especially if in a remote area where restrictions may differ or plans with different companies may exist.

I have Comcast, and they give me 1.2 TERABYTES with my plan per month. And it is one of the CHEAPEST plans.

WOW! What a difference a few years makes. Helps that many platforms of MSM are beginning to have livestream for tv, e.g. Peacock stream so that providers are upping their allowances.

I won't meet that streaming the trial every day. Whew.

But for others, please check so you don't get hit with a bill that I did years ago. Some YouTube channels that stream allow to have low resolution... perhaps that would help if some folks are limited? Dunno... just thought I would throw this to the thread as a shout out for others.

HTH!!!!
 
Sincere question, recognizing that Mr Chauvin has not been found guilty, may I ask what factors cause you to say that you don’t see that Mr Chauvin is guilty at this time?

@Lilibet and others, the Laughing social circle includes several first responders. Highly qualified, experienced, decorated first responders.

First responders who have been present at overdose deaths.

Fentanyl causes respiratory failure (among other things.) An overdose of Fentanyl causes the user's body to stop breathing.

Enough Fentanyl can cause breathing to stop even when Narcan is used.

There is protocol to using Narcan. If responders observe that a person appears to be under the influence of a substance, the responder must ask. Narcan is invasive, whether injected or nasal. If the person claims not be be under the influence of a substance, responder cannot administer Narcan. (This may vary from place to place and changes if the person looses consciousness.)

First responders are concerned about precedent.

The first responders we know are confident that they will witness overdose deaths in the future.

Will the person tell the responders that a substance is involved?
Will the ambulance arrive in time?

Or will the responder be charged with murder?

Some states are charging suppliers:

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-new...r-2-year-old-son-died-from-ingesting-fentanyl

Murder charges have also been filed against suppliers in North Carolina, Louisiana, and California.

In my corner of the world, a first responder was present at an overdose death.

I am frightened for the people of Minneapolis either way.

jmho ymmv lrr
 
Since Judge Cahill allowed a separate trial for the other officers involved, which seems to be a favorable ruling for Lane, Kueng, and Thao...

How will this trial and outcome impact the trial of the other officers?
 
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