MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 *officers charged* #3

[Weki]

This is very good news....I have a feeling there are already some things floating around with these jurors...the very excited young woman makes me very nervous.

I’m with ya! I’m very apprehensive about these jurors.

 

[Chelly]

This is very good news....I have a feeling there are already some things floating around with these jurors...the very excited young woman makes me very nervous.

Understandable, several of us here listened carefully to the voir dire . We were able to read the PJ's personalities. We must walk on eggshells when commenting on specific witnesses, but I share your concerns.

 

[Chelly]

I’m with ya! I’m very apprehensive about these jurors.

It interests me that hundreds of people will begin posting here once the trial begins with little to no thought of the jurors. Yet, a few of us who have listened closely to voir dire, and have gotten to know the jurors (in a matter of speaking), will perhaps have them on our minds throughout the trial. There are three or four who are unforgettable to me.

 

[mickey2942]

Yeah, they have to be persuasive and be opinionated types. And most importantly, engaged and feel a sense of responsibility. The jurors who don’t even check the news in their day to day lives worry me. How can something this big happen in your community and you’re just like ‘meh.’

Work 2 jobs, go to school, and have 2 kids. Been there, done that. I only knew what day it was because of which job I was at.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

It interests me that hundreds of people will begin posting here once the trial begins with little to no thought of the jurors. Yet, a few of us who have listened closely to voir dire, and have gotten to know the jurors (in a matter of speaking), will perhaps have them on our minds throughout the trial. There are three or four who are unforgettable to me.

Agreed!

 

[In vino veritas]

Agreed!

Likewise agree!! Based on what I’ve heard directly, or read about the jurors, only about 4 or 5 stand out as potential critical thinkers.

I believe a couple of the jurors, despite assurances of impartiality, have already made up their minds .....whether for vengeance or vindication. The young, enthusiastic juror comes to mind.

Hopefully all these jurors can put aside emotions and media bias and listen to ALL the facts and evidence presented to render the correct verdicts.

 

[Weki]

I’m curious to see how defense explains the near 9 minutes of Chauvin having his knee on Floyd’s neck/back area? Assuming the length of time that’s been reported is accurate. Also, considering there were a total of 4 officers present to help subdue Floyd. Why did Chauvin need to stay there for that length of time when Floyd was already subdued? And when he had 3 officers backing him up. And Floyd told him he couldn’t breathe.

I don’t see how that can be justified! IMO.

 

[Niner]

Questions - if anyone knows!

The last woman picked Juror #96 - is she white? And does she have a job? If so, "what"? I've been keeping these statistics on my notes.

TIA - to anyone who knows!

@Weki - from my notes re time on Floyd's neck:

police officer who held his knee on Floyd’s neck for 8 minutes & 46 seconds (Note: on 10/14/20 this has been changed to 9 minutes & 30 seconds) (& non responsive for 2 minutes & 53 seconds before officer took his knee off his neck; from 8:19pm to 8:28pm his knee was on Floyd’s neck.

Just an FYI - that it had been changed.

 

[In vino veritas]

I’m curious to see how defense explains the near 9 minutes of Chauvin having his knee on Floyd’s neck/back area? Assuming the length of time that’s been reported is accurate. Also, considering there were a total of 4 officers present to help subdue Floyd. Why did Chauvin need to stay there for that length of time when Floyd was already subdued? And when he had 3 officers backing him up. And Floyd told him he couldn’t breathe.

I don’t see how that can be justified! IMO.

I think everyone pretty much agrees that the amount of time GF was restrained in that manner was unjustified.
The question is.... does it constitute murder?
And to determine that, one needs to look at ALL the facts and evidence.

I firmly believe that DC, with the possible exception of second degree manslaughter, was over- charged. As the trial proceeds, and more information is released, I may be proven wrong.

 

[dandy]

I’m curious to see how defense explains the near 9 minutes of Chauvin having his knee on Floyd’s neck/back area? Assuming the length of time that’s been reported is accurate. Also, considering there were a total of 4 officers present to help subdue Floyd. Why did Chauvin need to stay there for that length of time when Floyd was already subdued? And when he had 3 officers backing him up. And Floyd told him he couldn’t breathe.

I don’t see how that can be justified! IMO.

would like to thank you and all the others for providing great notes.

as to # of minutes - imo it all depends on the time an ambulance was requested and the time it arrived - as it's not unusual for a "subdued" individual to bolt from custody - so it could have been a precaution?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I like PJ111. He’s intelligent. He has his opinions but he knows what’s required of this process. I think Nelson is incredulous. But I don’t think judge will strike for cause.

Nelson wants more of the detached jurors and I get why but those types of jurors are wildcards imo. They can hang a jury. And maybe Nelson is OK with that. They may feel detached in the jury room and not want to make a decision and be ambivalent. I think this case needs to be resolved one way or the other. A hung jury would be a disaster and there would most likely be a retrial!

I think there have been too many detached/apathetic jurors already selected. We need some critical thinkers who can move deliberations forward.

I respectfully disagree.

I do believe the defense is looking for critical thinkers who looks analytically at the evidence which will be presented in the trial... instead of putting emotions in it when weighing the evidence.

I have been following trials for over four decades, and I'm pro prosecution most of the time, but prosecutors are the ones who prodominently does want emotions to come into play when weighing the evidence. Defense are the ones who want critical thinkers who solely looks at the evidence presented.

No matter how hard a case may be for any juror, (I've been one several times) to truly sit fairly in judgement on any case personal emotions must be set aside to come to any just verdict. This includes setting aside what may happen after they render their verdict.

I do understand why DAs does bring in emotions in their cases because they are there to represent the victims.

However, even if the jurors do have great empathy for the victims, and of course they do... they still must come to their verdict based solely on the testimony of the witnesses whether good or bad for either side.

Imho

 

[Weki]

I think everyone pretty much agrees that the amount of time GF was restrained in that manner was unjustified.
The question is.... does it constitute murder?
And to determine that, one needs to look at ALL the facts and evidence.

I firmly believe that DC, with the possible exception of second degree manslaughter, was over- charged. As the trial proceeds, and more information is released, I may be proven wrong.

So this is the crux of 2nd degree murder charge:

For a conviction of second-degree unintentional murder, the state's prosecutors will have to show beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin caused Floyd's death while assaulting him. This is the most serious charge and carries a presumed sentence in this case of 10 3⁄4 years to 15 years,

To me this reads like a felony murder charge. If a burglar (burglary being a felony) startles a homeowner and that homeowner had an existing heart condition and dies, the burglar is charged with felony murder. But for the burglar’s actions, the homeowner would be alive. Similarly, despite Floyd’s drug usage/medical condition, if Chauvin hadn’t pressed on his neck/chest area for 9 minutes he’d be alive.

State is going to argue Chauvin assaulted (assault being a felony) Floyd, which caused his death. So not that he intended to kill him. Even if that move was per his training, continuing to just kneel on him for 9 minutes went beyond restraint and into assault. He was already down. And he kept kicking him, proverbially speaking.

Third-degree murder requires prosecutors to prove that someone caused the death of another "by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life." Legal experts note that the definition of "depraved mind" is murky— as is the legal line between "depraved mind" and the "culpable negligence" standard for manslaughter.

This also seems to fit. Certainly, Chauvin seemed indifferent and behaved in a dangerous manner by doing it for such a long time.

Apparently, only one officer has been convicted of murder (3rd degree) in the state of Minnesota. And that is the precedent being used for charging Chauvin with 3rd degree murder.

Source: What are the charges against ex-Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin in the killing of George Floyd?[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Edited to add: I’m not a legal expert obviously I’m just sharing my thought process thus far. Of course we will learn a lot more in the next month. Ultimately, I don’t think the appropriate verdict is an acquittal but I also don’t think we should throw the book at Chauvin. To my mind at this point he’s culpable and he was negligent - at least manslaughter.

 

[Weki]

would like to thank you and all the others for providing great notes.

as to # of minutes - imo it all depends on the time an ambulance was requested and the time it arrived - as it's not unusual for a "subdued" individual to bolt from custody - so it could have been a precaution?

I think the police training manual and procedures will be key here - I can’t imagine that it would allow for a prolonged restraint of that nature as a precaution. 9 minutes kneeling on someone’s neck/upper back area is a looooong time. If the ambulance had taken 20 minutes, would Chauvin be justified in kneeling on Floyd in that manner for that length of time? Imagine someone giving you a tight squeeze bear hug for a couple minutes!

 

[SouthAussie]

I think the police training manual and procedures will be key here - I can’t imagine that it would allow for a prolonged restraint of that nature as a precaution. 9 minutes kneeling on someone’s neck/upper back area is a looooong time. If the ambulance had taken 20 minutes, would Chauvin be justified in kneeling on Floyd in that manner for that length of time? Imagine someone giving you a tight squeeze bear hug for a couple minutes!

When we looked at this earlier, it is clearly stated in the training manual that they are to put the restrained person into the recovery position - on their side - to be sure that the person can breathe. That wasn't done, despite one of the officers (Lane) asking twice if they should do that.

"Place the subject in the recovery position to alleviate positional asphyxia."
MPD training shows neck restraint similar to that used on Floyd | kare11.com

This is the recovery position as shown in the police manual.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Last night I just couldn't sleep. My wandering mind went to this case. I kept thinking how I would answer some questions that defense and state and the judge asked. And how I would approach if I was on the jury.

When this first came out, I had strong opinions as to what Chauvin did was wrong. So very very very wrong! What an awful person I still think he is, and glad he will never be an officer again. But I didn't have a definitive "verdict" as to what I would think about the charges. I didn't have/still don't have "conviction" (strength of opinion 100% on what he was guilty of) of my opinion as to where his actions fit into the legal charges. Still don't.

And then we learned that he was found to have toxic levels of fentanyl (someone correct me, they were lethal levels?) and that a fentanyl pill was found with his saliva in the back of the cruiser. (someone correct me if I am wrong and this is not factually known). So then it made me consider how that affects my opinion as to the specific charges of what if he hadn't ingested any fentanyl at all. And is it like insurance claims, whereby %'s of contribution to "the claim" can be distributed, and how does that affect the charges? Does it push it down the level of charges?

As to the others contributions, and not putting him into a recovery position, how that affects my opinion and conviction of my opinion... I would need long discussions with others to hash out my own objective opinion. MOO

I have very strong opinions on this case, but I would have answered to the voir dire that I don't have "conviction of my opinion" to offer at this time as to guilt or innocence for each and every charge as I don't know all, and I don't know the specifics of the legal directions that will be needed to guide the jury decision. Those jury instructions will be so very key to analytical minds to parse through.

It's gonna be a minefield in that jury room perhaps. Glad I'll never be on a jury like this one. But I do hope there are some analytical and critical thinkers to guide the group. And I agree with the poster above who said that the defense will indeed be looking for analytical types and critical thinkers on the jury. Perhaps our in-house legal folks can chime in on this as they did re speaking to a few jurors vs. all of them.

MOO

 

[JerseyGirl]

Questions - if anyone knows!

The last woman picked Juror #96 - is she white? And does she have a job? If so, "what"? I've been keeping these statistics on my notes.

TIA - to anyone who knows!

@Weki - from my notes re time on Floyd's neck:

police officer who held his knee on Floyd’s neck for 8 minutes & 46 seconds (Note: on 10/14/20 this has been changed to 9 minutes & 30 seconds) (& non responsive for 2 minutes & 53 seconds before officer took his knee off his neck; from 8:19pm to 8:28pm his knee was on Floyd’s neck.

Just an FYI - that it had been changed.

Juror #96, a white woman in her 50s who described herself in court as an animal lover who also has a passion for the issue of fair housing and ending homelessness.

During questioning juror #96 told the courtroom that the place she works was damaged during the riots. She does not, however, think that fact would make her biased. She said she does not like the way MPD has handled homeless people in Minneapolis.

Judge denies delay, venue change in Chauvin trial; jury selection resumes Monday

The woman picked Friday — a white woman in her 50s — said she's never seen police officers use more force with Black people or minorities than with white people, and that there's nothing to fear from police if people cooperate and comply with commands. She stopped short of saying an uncooperative person deserves to be harmed.

Judge won't move trial in Floyd's death; 13th juror picked

 

[SouthAussie]

As to the others contributions, and not putting him into a recovery position, how that affects my opinion and conviction of my opinion... I would need long discussions with others to hash out my own objective opinion. MOO

MOO

I personally think that neglecting to put George in the recovery position might be seen as culpable negligence - 3rd degree murder.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I personally think that neglecting to put George in the recovery position might be seen as culpable negligence - 3rd degree murder.

... and then my mind skips to the other officers, and what culpability they will have if I were in deliberations. What "force" should they have used to get him off his neck? Should they/could they have done something to stop him? Were they not in a position of authority to do such, therefore not culpable? Would they think/actually have been arrested/fired if they physically interfered with Chauvin's actions.

My ADD, analytical, and critical thinking would be in such overdrive my brain might explode if I were a juror!

I don't even know if it would be "allowed" for me to consider such, and hopefully the jury instructions will be VERY clear in this as is a point for "too critical a thinker jurors" that the defense will address such to question beyond a reasonable doubt.

This is a case I will definitely be following live stream daily, and my opinions may change daily! (Such a dearth of trials, surprised everyone on WS isn't following this thread iykwim)

But as said upthread, the opinions I have don't meld to a definitive decision until jury instructions come to light.

MOO.

Looking forward to everyone's discussions during the trial! Glad to share this awful journey to participate and witness for the victims and community.... not only for the local community.. but the worldwide community.

 

[Weki]

@dixiegirl1035 Omg! Same!! I’ve been asking myself what’s wrong with me because I keep thinking over and over again how I would answer voir dire! I keep going back and forth about my feelings and opinions on Chauvin and what a fair verdict would be. I honestly feel bad for him! Then I think but 9 minutes!! Why?! Why didn’t he let up when he saw Floyd lay there flaccid? Why? Why? Why? Even the other officer suggested it. Was it because the bystanders were taunting him? Had they used a more conciliatory tone would he have let up? Had they said “please let up he’s unconscious” and if they didn’t have a phone out filming him?

Or was he just mad because Floyd was resisting so much? Why were they in such a rush to get him in the car? He didn’t want to get in, he was obviously high on something. He was handcuffed and sitting on the ground and he didn’t seem like a flight risk. Obv getting in the car triggered something. But he wasn’t armed and he was handcuffed. Why not let him sit on the curb for a while longer to reassess?

Was it the whiny voice? Did they think he was malingering and they were impatient with him? But they could tell he was high. They just wanted to take him in and move on with their day?

There’s a callousness to their behavior once they realize he has no pulse. There’s no urgency. Why?

 

[MsBetsy]

@dixiegirl1035 Omg! Same!! I’ve been asking myself what’s wrong with me because I keep thinking over and over again how I would answer voir dire! I keep going back and forth about my feelings and opinions on Chauvin and what a fair verdict would be. I honestly feel bad for him! Then I think but 9 minutes!! Why?! Why didn’t he let up when he saw Floyd lay there flaccid? Why? Why? Why? Even the other officer suggested it. Was it because the bystanders were taunting him? Had they used a more conciliatory tone would he have let up? Had they said “please let up he’s unconscious” and if they didn’t have a phone out filming him?

Or was he just mad because Floyd was resisting so much? Why were they in such a rush to get him in the car? He didn’t want to get in, he was obviously high on something. He was handcuffed and sitting on the ground and he didn’t seem like a flight risk. Obv getting in the car triggered something. But he wasn’t armed and he was handcuffed. Why not let him sit on the curb for a while longer to reassess?

Was it the whiny voice? Did they think he was malingering and they were impatient with him? But they could tell he was high. They just wanted to take him in and move on with their day?

There’s a callousness to their behavior once they realize he has no pulse. There’s no urgency. Why?

Also, while the crowd was begging and pleading for them to stop, one of the officers said, "Don't do drugs, kids!" As if showing them this is what you get when you break the law. There was no urgency because they simply didn't seem to care. Imo