MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #10

[kemo]

As far as I can tell, the only information made public is the videos of the tire track with JW's footprints leading up to it. LE has not disclosed any information related to other footprints or other tire tracks. It would seem likely that there were others. One thing is very obvious; right from the get-go, The Stearns County SD made the assumption that JW had been taken away by vehicle. If they made that assumption based on the fact that "that is how child molesters usually operate" possibly reinforced by the plainly visible tire tracks and footprints why didn't they go straight to DR's house and ask him if he saw anything (like a description of the car). I've wondered if they got a description from some other source that they have never disclosed. Could this have been the Red Orange Station Wagon?

Even when DR called 911 at 11:23PM, the information was not considered significant. The tape was probably recorded over. It would have been saved if anyone thought DR had actually seen the abductors vehicle OR if there was anything "hinky" about what DR said or his demeanor; either on the phone or when he spoke to them directly. Is it possible that there is evidence that the mystery vehicle turned around on the driveway, perhaps at the wood pile, and they just assume DR wouldn't have seen it?

There are other child abduction cases that were seriously compromised when they were initially conducted as a "missing child" situation rather than a criminal investigation. That may account for some of the problems in this case.

We can speculate all we want on what LE knows. I would think LE could rule out many vehicles as the source of the tire that made the track next to JW's footprints, but I am sure many makes and models could not be. At best, Kevin's car could not be ruled out . It would be interesting to learn if it had been compared to any vehicles on DR's farm. If they didn't, it was either incredibly sloppy police work or they had such a strong assumption of what happened that they felt it was unnecessary.

 

[human]

I believe this is a site where we can speculate given information that is available.

People have all kinds of ideas including furnaces and woodpiles.

Interesting .

I wonder if bones were found in their burn pit and if cadaver blood was found.

I don't think LE will ever say anything. I was helping a friend with finding out about his murdered grandmother that happened in the 70's.

It is still considered an open case. The only info the detective gave me was that my friend's father was never considered a viable suspect.

My friend never considered that his Dad did it. He figured it was the butler/bf.

So 40 some years later and still all is silent

 

[human]

I wonder if Father Gillespie, who came to the Wetterlings to offer solace, was the one that took the aerial photos of farms and homes in the area?

This was discussed before, but as someone with sexual issues, it does not seem possible that he was really there to offer solace.

So why was he there?

http://www.behindthepinecurtain.com...fault&uid=default&view_records=1&PN=Gillespie

 

[ELOCsoul]

I did pay for the online prescription for the Paynesville Press and found a story about DAH's arrest. In the story it said it was unknown if DAH was connected to the 5 assaults in Paynesville. We at websleuths hadn't known about those assaults before the article. Someone may have emailed Joy because they knew she had a blog about Jacob. The info on Joy's blog came out after we found the article and after someone emailed her. I really don't care for credit. I want Jacob found and all information uncovered. Why would we not have known about the other 5 reports from LE? Did they think it wasn't connected to Jacob's disappearance? It could have been important to the investigation.

I also think the posters here are getting too snappy at each other. I will just hang back until the atmosphere improves.

OK, so here is how everything happened with the Paynesville cases coming to light. JBrown, myself, and Joy found the articles on our own, about the same time. Below are links to posts form August 2013 where JBrown and Human mention the cases. I mentioned that I was researching them as well, but nobody picked up on it then. I had a 3 day subscription to the Paynesville Press online archives, and suggested to Joy it was a good source of info about DAH, etc.

Regarding whether or not LE had ever heard of the Paynesville cases, the blog stated that CURRENT LE had not heard of them. The articles clearly stated that they were looked into, so I dropped my research on them. When TV stations picked up the story this spring, they made the stretch to say the cases were never investigated by LE. They also said that LE didn't make a possible connection between Jared's and Jacob's case until 6 months after Jacob was taken. That's not true, articles from the 10/25/89 St. Cloud Times specifically show that LE was investigating the two cases as related, and they reported as such many times thereafter.

Hope this clears things up….

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...St-Joseph-22-Oct-1989-5&p=9734476#post9734476

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...St-Joseph-22-Oct-1989-5&p=9734969#post9734969

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...St-Joseph-22-Oct-1989-5&p=9735191#post9735191

 

[human]

OK, so here is how everything happened with the Paynesville cases coming to light. JBrown, myself, and Joy found the articles on our own, about the same time. Below are links to posts form August 2013 where JBrown and Human mention the cases. I mentioned that I was researching them as well, but nobody picked up on it then. I had a 3 day subscription to the Paynesville Press online archives, and suggested to Joy it was a good source of info about DAH, etc.

Regarding whether or not LE had ever heard of the Paynesville cases, the blog stated that CURRENT LE had not heard of them. The articles clearly stated that they were looked into, so I dropped my research on them. When TV stations picked up the story this spring, they made the stretch to say the cases were never investigated by LE. They also said that LE didn't make a possible connection between Jared's and Jacob's case until 6 months after Jacob was taken. That's not true, articles from the 10/25/89 St. Cloud Times specifically show that LE was investigating the two cases as related, and they reported as such many times thereafter.
Hope this clears things up….

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...St-Joseph-22-Oct-1989-5&p=9734476#post9734476

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...St-Joseph-22-Oct-1989-5&p=9734969#post9734969

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...St-Joseph-22-Oct-1989-5&p=9735191#post9735191

Thank YOU! Accurate information presented with integrity.

I really appreciate the info you give because you research it and verify it as much as is possible.

You have really researched .

But you never found the article where Dr sticks his head out the window and hollers to LE that he is not interested? It probably does not ID him by name.

Where could it be???

 

[ThePhantom]

I'm with Human. I think all angles should be thoroughly examined, including DR's affiliation with St. John's University and his relationships with individuals there. Jacob was abducted, Joshua is missing, Jared was assaulted and then there are the Paynesville victims. Lots of activity within a relatively small area. Even in places with numerous sex offenders (which is almost everywhere it seems), one does not often see an extended pattern like this. This is all speculation but it's not specious. Are we looking at one small piece of the puzzle -- DR's farm -- or is there a larger picture? Are there dots that can be connected into a larger picture, or, are these discrete events, or are they two separate sets of events (Paynesville vs. later assaults). It's difficult to ignore the lengthy history of sexual assaults at St. John's (going back decades) and how this behavior might have possibly flowed outward into the surrounding community. I think it's within the realm of possibility that the criminal behavior that occurred at St. John's did not happen in a vacuum.

As an aside -- I'm not sure I really believe the FBI's profile of the perpetrator. Likewise, the forensic sketch matches a ton of men, alas. For example, I thought Vernon Seitz resembled the sketch. Then I saw others who also looked similar to the drawing. Is there a distinctive, distinguishing aspect highlighted in the sketch? The sketch looks like any number of men -- it also doesn't look much like someone 25 - 35 ? Just my thoughts.

 

[FindTim]

I think the main difference between the St Johns assaults and the Paynesville/CS/StJoseph assaults is in the manner that the occurred. From most of the research I've found, the St Johns assaults were acts of luring children. The Paynesville/CS/StJoseph attacks all show signs of an attacker lying in wait and threatening with a gun. Big difference in the profile of the attacker IMO.

 

[ELOCsoul]

I think the main difference between the St Johns assaults and the Paynesville/CS/StJoseph assaults is in the manner that the occurred. From most of the research I've found, the St Johns assaults were acts of luring children. The Paynesville/CS/StJoseph attacks all show signs of an attacker lying in wait and threatening with a gun. Big difference in the profile of the attacker IMO.

The attacking nature of the Paynesville assaults is exactly why I believe DAH had nothing to do with those. He had all the boys and men he wanted by offering them booze, drugs, and cash. Just MO.

 

[ELOCsoul]

For Jacob, all the missing, and all who search…..

https://www.facebook.com/searchingforjacob

Remember, you cannot copy and paste from this page and post to WS.

 

[ThePhantom]

We don't know all that we don't know about some of the predators at St. John's. They were free to traverse the community with no accountability to anyone. Not a one was interviewed for an alibi the night/morning Josh disappeared. And there were a few who, in my opinion, were as soulless and dead eyed as they come. It is not a stretch for me to envision one possibly widening the hunt for a victim. The compulsion is strong, from what I understand, and perhaps the stakes had to be raised in order to achieve the same thrill. Perhaps the stakes had been raised a long time ago. So many secrets locked within those walls, though one Patrick Wall did go out on a limb to air the dirty laundry. Predators seem to stake a territory -- and stalk. Can we be certain none of these predators had access to a gun? If one is into these sorts of sordid pursuits, the possibilities of what one might do seem endless --

 

[human]

We don't know all that we don't know about some of the predators at St. John's. They were free to traverse the community with no accountability to anyone. Not a one was interviewed for an alibi the night/morning Josh disappeared. And there were a few who, in my opinion, were as soulless and dead eyed as they come. It is not a stretch for me to envision one possibly widening the hunt for a victim. The compulsion is strong, from what I understand, and perhaps the stakes had to be raised in order to achieve the same thrill. Perhaps the stakes had been raised a long time ago. So many secrets locked within those walls, though one Patrick Wall did go out on a limb to air the dirty laundry. Predators seem to stake a territory -- and stalk. Can we be certain none of these predators had access to a gun? If one is into these sorts of sordid pursuits, the possibilities of what one might do seem endless --

It seems like one may be linked to the murder of the Reker girls, so the possibility is there for things beyond luring.

And Josh Guimond did not just disappear by himself. No way.

Yes, what secrets are in those walls and halls and cabins and furnaces.

 

[FindTim]

There was an attempted abduction of another student that was reported to LE prior to JG going missing, but that's for another board.

It seems like one may be linked to the murder of the Reker girls, so the possibility is there for things beyond luring.

And Josh Guimond did not just disappear by himself. No way.

Yes, what secrets are in those walls and halls and cabins and furnaces.

 

[human]

There was an attempted abduction of another student that was reported to LE prior to JG going missing, but that's for another board.

Another student at St. john's? Male? When?

 

[Trino]

It seems like one may be linked to the murder of the Reker girls, so the possibility is there for things beyond luring.

And Josh Guimond did not just disappear by himself. No way. Yes, what secrets are in those walls and halls and cabins and furnaces.

The Reker girls were murdered in 1974. Note the other abductions were male. Normally, there isn't a cross-over among pedophiles.

Perhaps this isn't politically correct, but there were rumors about Stearns Co before JW's abduction - that it was a very closed place with many residents protecting their own. How do I know this? Because I'm from the TC and heard the rumors. Years ago, at the time I heard them, I paid little attention. Of course, over the years the make-up of Stearns Co has changed, and one could not expect this to be true today.

BUT, I suspect there are those who may still be in Stearns Co who have an idea about what has gone on with the abductions and the JW case, whether they be connected to the Abbey or simply connected.

I wonder about the reaction of neighbors to some of the suspects. What are their opinions? Is there still somewhat of a protection factor?

 

[human]

The Reker girls were murdered in 1974. Note the other abductions were male. Normally, there isn't a cross-over among pedophiles.

Perhaps this isn't politically correct, but there were rumors about Stearns Co before JW's abduction - that it was a very closed place with many residents protecting their own. How do I know this? Because I'm from the TC and heard the rumors. Years ago, at the time I heard them, I paid little attention. Of course, over the years the make-up of Stearns Co has changed, and one could not expect this to be true today.

BUT, I suspect there are those who may still be in Stearns Co who have an idea about what has gone on with the abductions and the JW case, whether they be connected to the Abbey or simply connected.

I wonder about the reaction of neighbors to some of the suspects. What are their opinions? Is there still somewhat of a protection factor?

I was just bringing up the idea of murder perhaps being part of the priest abuse issues rather than simply luring.

I live in a small community which at one time was filled with sexual abuse. It seems like back up until Jacob was kidnapped, sex abuse was frowned upon, but it was not understood to be as heinous as it is.

After Jacob, the education began. I have only lived in my community 35 years, but I heard about the abusers years ago. This is a community, which has greatly changed, that considered anyone not born there as outsiders. Yet, I was told all kinds of scandals.

It seems here, anyway where I live, people accept that some people are beyond bizarre and stay away. So, I think you are right. There are people who know things that will never tell because it is part of their dysfunctional system and they don't know how sick they are, Then there are those who protect sickos because of whatever their needs for silence are. Perhaps it is a child or a sibling they are protecting. Or perhaps they are protecting their own selves, such as the victims of abuse who cannot deal with the pain.

Or perhaps it is a situation like the Catholic Church that is protecting what it can.

It is like with the Hubers. An family that had all kinds of issues, yet people seemed to accept it as part of life. To outsiders looking in, it is apparent.

 

[FindTim]

Male, college student. LE interviewed. More appropriate for the JG board.

Another student at St. john's? Male? When?

 

[Sasquatch321]

Male, college student. LE interviewed. More appropriate for the JG board.

JG is just as relevant to these discussions as is Jared. All three cases happened within a 30 mile circle and are all unsolved. Was there a description of the attacker in the failed attempt?

 

[Trackergd]

I was just bringing up the idea of murder perhaps being part of the priest abuse issues rather than simply luring.

I live in a small community which at one time was filled with sexual abuse. It seems like back up until Jacob was kidnapped, sex abuse was frowned upon, but it was not understood to be as heinous as it is.

After Jacob, the education began. I have only lived in my community 35 years, but I heard about the abusers years ago. This is a community, which has greatly changed, that considered anyone not born there as outsiders. Yet, I was told all kinds of scandals.

It seems here, anyway where I live, people accept that some people are beyond bizarre and stay away. So, I think you are right. There are people who know things that will never tell because it is part of their dysfunctional system and they don't know how sick they are, Then there are those who protect sickos because of whatever their needs for silence are. Perhaps it is a child or a sibling they are protecting. Or perhaps they are protecting their own selves, such as the victims of abuse who cannot deal with the pain.

Or perhaps it is a situation like the Catholic Church that is protecting what it can.

It is like with the Hubers. An family that had all kinds of issues, yet people seemed to accept it as part of life. To outsiders looking in, it is apparent.

I wished to note that the above is a very well thought out and presented post.

If I may add... There are pedophiles that operate as single individuals, and others that operate in pairs or even organizations (Rocking R). The more bold perform the abductions whilst others provide minor tasks such as temporary safe houses, way stations and transportation and are rewarded with brief access to the abducted to satisfy their particular "desires" thinking themselves to be only minor players and not the monsters the public view the abductors and violent abusers.

And it was correctly noted that child abuse has existed from the dawn of time with little public outcry until the 1980's. Abuse against young boys was quite common in the British Military and Navy in the 1600 - 1700's (noted in print). I have also seen reference to it in ancient Asian history with warlords.

It is a well entrenched cycle to break and includes individuals from all levels of life including the well protected by money and power.

Some think me harsh for taking Sterns County to task on occasion, however I will note that by the time the FBI arrived to look at the crime scene, it had been so contaminated by first responders, searchers and LE, that the best Trackers in the world would have had difficulty making any sense of it.

What some of you see in the pictures and take to be footprints turn out to be (in other photographs I have seen) horse shoe prints and ATV tire prints...and at least one set of prints from a police car. The story was on the road to be read like a book. It would have told the entire story and who was involved....too bad one or more people by shear ignorance or intention...burned the book.

 

[FindTim]

Attacker(s) They tried forcing the individual into a vehicle. I"m not going to state anything else on this case. Again, LE has talked to the victim.

JG is just as relevant to these discussions as is Jared. All three cases happened within a 30 mile circle and are all unsolved. Was there a description of the attacker in the failed attempt?

 

[FindTim]

This has been my thought process all along. People tend to forget that searching was done in the middle of the night with LE & Fire & Rescue. They can't be faulted for trampling the scene looking for a lost boy. Whomever was the highest ranking official early at the scene failed to secure it properly, and the onus should be on them.

Some think me harsh for taking Sterns County to task on occasion, however I will note that by the time the FBI arrived to look at the crime scene, it had been so contaminated by first responders, searchers and LE, that the best Trackers in the world would have had difficulty making any sense of it.

What some of you see in the pictures and take to be footprints turn out to be (in other photographs I have seen) horse shoe prints and ATV tire prints...and at least one set of prints from a police car. The story was on the road to be read like a book. It would have told the entire story and who was involved....too bad one or more people by shear ignorance or intention...burned the book.