MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #5

[shergal]

On the nightclub question, I'm trying to think what would have been around in 1989... The Del-Win was sort of out in the middle of nowhere back then, I remember going there a couple times for wedding receptions. It's certainly possible you could get up on their roof, I have no clue who worked there though. In town, there were 2 bars or "nightclubs" - the La Playette was sort of kitty-corner from the church originally, although I think it's moved across the street now. I don't think there was much of a parking lot there, possibly a small one behind the bar. I usually only went there during the big 4th of July celebration in town, so I'm hazy on the details. There was another bar directly across from the church, I can't remember what the name of that bar was - it's been a long time. ;-) There was more of a supper club/bar out on the west edge of town called El Paso. I don't think that would have qualified as a night club.

In St. Cloud, there was the Club Domino out on Hwy. 23. That had a huge parking lot and it would not surprise me at all if the owner (JH, who has been dead for many years) was up to no good watching people from the roof. I had friends who bartended at that club and they had plenty of stories of the criminal type stuff this man got up to. I'm trying to remember if he had a son though. I know he had a daughter. I'll check on that.

 

[shergal]

Here's a google map to bars in St. Joe.
https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF...h,+MN&ei=FrL7UbuxH4PTqAHG44G4Dw&ved=0COYBEMgT

You can zoom in and look down on the church steeple on Minnesota Street and the downtown bars were across the street. If you travel east (to the right) along Minnesota Street, it eventually curves south and if you go south when you hit 20th Ave. SE on the map, you will see the old Del-Win Ballroom spot, across from the armory. DR's farm is to the south of that. (As you move around the map certain bars appear and disappear as they go off the page.)

 

[cGorg]

shergal, thanks for those links! Very interesting. I live hours away from St Joseph so am not that familiar with the town so anything posted by you or human is insightful as you both seem to be familiar with the town.
The Topix quote by Gary while morbid was definitely eye popping. Of course he could be lying as can anyone posting or speaking about the case. It seems that's all that is available-circumstantial statements which may or may not lead to some factual evidence. Sifting through all of the Websleuths + Topix postings does yield some good information and eliminates some 'bad' or erroneous information. It also acts as a problem solving device from afar. Websleuths postings IMHO are more thoughtful and case focused while Topix postings can be useless rantings. In any event, I look for the postings that get to the point such as Gary's....my problem is how does one research something like that beyond the posting? Apparently Joy's Blog is doing that as are some of the sleuths on this site. It would be interesting to see all of the pertinent information organized in 1 place. This case is definitely mind twisting but if enough people collect enough information then it gives me hope that the truth will be found.

 

[human]

Please remember that LE has tons of info that we will never have unless the perp is found.

If you have ever followed any cases where the perp is found, it is amazing what LE knows.

It would be hard to organize info as people have their own spin on things. I am into the dog aspext now. Others do not aopear interested in that at all. That's how it is

 

[midwestphd]

Back after a break from this case. Stumbled upon this article:

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2013/...est-goes-through-day-of-wetterling-abduction/

Apologies if someone else has already posted this link. Of particular note is that DR (or someone using his name) has posted comments on the story and has responded to comments from others. Even if this person posting is not DR, in the past few years, DR has really started to become more public in proclaiming his "innocence," which is strange IMO. Why, as a POI, would you draw increased attention to yourself? Why make any statements at all, especially about what you were doing the night of the kidnapping? It is bizarre and flies in the face of any advice he'd receive from a lawyer.

Also, I've been reading about Arthur Leigh Allen (now dead), the top suspect in the unsolved Zodiac murders. There are some remarkable similarities. ALA was a convicted child molester. He lived with his parents. He was a former serious athlete. He had a long history as a teacher, mostly at the elementary and middle school levels. He had no history of "normal" romantic relationships, either with men or women. He kept many mementos from the Zodiac killing news coverage, and was obsessed with the San Francisco PD. DR has also written letters (eleven, I believe) to the police expressing his innocence and offering to "help with the case." ALA made a similar statement in a letter to the cops after being released from a mental institution. He offered to "help with the case." DR had a collection of newspaper clippings related to the Wetterling disappearance. Both are college-educated and very intelligent. Both display(ed) what might be called "arrogance" toward law enforcement.

This is of interest mostly because of Allen's history as a pedophile/child molester. There was never any physical evidence tying him to the Zodiac killings. Of course, this doesn't prove anything, but as I learned more and more about Allen, I thought more and more about DR.

 

[ELOCsoul]

Back after a break from this case. Stumbled upon this article:

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2013/...est-goes-through-day-of-wetterling-abduction/

Apologies if someone else has already posted this link. Of particular note is that DR (or someone using his name) has posted comments on the story and has responded to comments from others. Even if this person posting is not DR, in the past few years, DR has really started to become more public in proclaiming his "innocence," which is strange IMO. Why, as a POI, would you draw increased attention to yourself? Why make any statements at all, especially about what you were doing the night of the kidnapping? It is bizarre and flies in the face of any advice he'd receive from a lawyer.

Also, I've been reading about Arthur Leigh Allen (now dead), the top suspect in the unsolved Zodiac murders. There are some remarkable similarities. ALA was a convicted child molester. He lived with his parents. He was a former serious athlete. He had a long history as a teacher, mostly at the elementary and middle school levels. He had no history of "normal" romantic relationships, either with men or women. He kept many mementos from the Zodiac killing news coverage, and was obsessed with the San Francisco PD. DR has also written letters (eleven, I believe) to the police expressing his innocence and offering to "help with the case." ALA made a similar statement in a letter to the cops after being released from a mental institution. He offered to "help with the case." DR had a collection of newspaper clippings related to the Wetterling disappearance. Both are college-educated and very intelligent. Both display(ed) what might be called "arrogance" toward law enforcement.

This is of interest mostly because of Allen's history as a pedophile/child molester. There was never any physical evidence tying him to the Zodiac killings. Of course, this doesn't prove anything, but as I learned more and more about Allen, I thought more and more about DR.

The Zodiac Killer was an interesting movie, although I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the movie version.

Just to clarify - DR did not write 11 letters, he wrote a single, 5 page later, that he mailed to 14 agencies. Not saying that isn't wierd, I'm just clarifying that bit.

On the other hand, Stearns County LE is not real good about clearing suspects - so it's possibly a logical idea to defend oneself if wrongly accused. In the murder case of a Cold Spring police officer, they arrested a man early on and let him go because of lack of evidence. They continued naming him as POI. After a few months they latched onto a different POI who eventually hung himself during a standoff with police. The 2nd POI left a suicide note that led to the murder weapon being found in a nearby house. The 2nd POI had borrowed the weapon just prior to the murder. Yet, the 1st POI in the case has yet to be cleared. Incidentally, the 1st POI grew up on the same street as DR. It's a strange world we live in.

 

[midwestphd]

My info on Arthur Leigh Allen comes from Robert Graysmith's two books, Zodiac and Zodiac Unmasked. The movie does contain some significant differences.

Would be interesting to know more about DR's parents and his home life growing up.

 

[ELOCsoul]

There is really no need to use initials when discussing dead people. Dead people have no privacy rights and cannot sue you for defamation, libel or slander, nor can their living relatives sue you for such torts. See, for example, Minnesota Statutes § 573.01: “A cause of action arising out of an injury to the person dies with the person of the party in whose favor it exists . . .”

For example:

St. Paul Pioneer Press (MN) - May 13, 1992 - 6C Metro
MAN GOES TO PRISON FOR SHOOTING AT WIFE
A judge sentenced a rural Sauk Rapids man to nearly 15 years in prison Tuesday for trying to shoot his wife to death in a parking lot last September. Judge Skipper Pearson of the 7th Judicial District sentenced Jim Haaf consecutively on convictions for attempted second-degree murder and second-degree assault. A jury in March convicted Haaf of the charges in connection with the September incident outside Club Domino. Jurors acquitted Haaf, 62, of attempted first-degree murder....

The State of Minnesota vs. JAMES THOMAS HAAF, SR.
DOB: 12/29/1929
Case No. 05-K3-91-000785
Case Type: Felony
Date Filed: 09/26/1991
Location: Benton county
Attempted Second Degree Murder
Second degree assault (convicted)

OK, I'll bite. What are referring to when you advise there is no need to use initials for dead people? I don't recall someone doing that.

 

[ELOCsoul]

Please remember that LE has tons of info that we will never have unless the perp is found.

If you have ever followed any cases where the perp is found, it is amazing what LE knows.

It would be hard to organize info as people have their own spin on things. I am into the dog aspext now. Others do not aopear interested in that at all. That's how it is

The dog barking thing is definitely interesting, and something that I wondered about that Kevin's car in the driveway did not cause the dog to bark loud enough to alert DR.

As far as the kidnapping at the end of the driveway - that location looks to be about 1,000 feet +/- away from the house. It's also screened by a significant depth of woods. Depending on the breed, age, and temperament of the dog - it could react not at all, or maybe just a little, or up to a significant reaction. It's an unknown for sure.

The likelihood of sirens, and general overall commotion - are also interesting points to ponder. But - those should have been indicators way back in 1989. Did LE miss yet another opportunity to solve the case immediately?? We may never know.

 

[shergal]

OK, I'll bite. What are referring to when you advise there is no need to use initials for dead people? I don't recall someone doing that.

I used his initials in my post above, ELOC, because it is my understanding we do not NAME people who are not official POI's in a case (whether they are dead or alive.)

 

[ELOCsoul]

just noticed some miscellaneous items...not sure if there's any connections. I checked the sunset time for October 22, 1989 and it was 17:16 (5:16 pm). In various articles, DR states he was running late afternoon and just before dusk....so this doesn't correspond time-wise with the boys trip to Tom Thumb and taking DR at his word 'clears him' regarding taking a run while the boys were enroute. However, based on his description of the run in Joy's blog I don't think that run would have taken very long. In another article, he says he spent a good deal of time running that day...so inconsistent.

DR stated he went past the Delwin Ballroom while the polka fest was in progress.....in previous posts this was discussed but I have not seen the time frame for this event. This could be a good reference to DR's statement.

Additionally, Shergal posted on 9-29-2010 post #289 regarding a posting on Topix by a man named Gary who mentioned the 2 composite suspect drawings and that he knew who they were: a father + son. I wonder which drawings he was referring to? Also, he stated that the son worked at a nightclub....just wondering if it could have been the Delwin Ballroom.

According to this tool from the Farmer's almanac, sunset was actually 6:18pm
http://www.almanac.com/sun/rise/MN/Saint Cloud/1989-10-22

 

[ELOCsoul]

Thanks, it's interesting to go back and read what we were thinking in 2010 and earlier. Here's a link to that page with post #289 on it so it's easier to find: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110770&page=12

Kind of amazing also, that old topix link is still working! http://www.topix.com/forum/city/st-cloud-mn/TKMOC8OA1GE8A1V9C

While on that old WS page, I found a couple very interesting posts by Margaret Diane, who used to post here. Her posts, #'s 277, 278, and 294 are interesting to read again.

#278 is particularly interesting - wish that video was still available

 

[human]

The Zodiac Killer was an interesting movie, although I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the movie version.

Just to clarify - DR did not write 11 letters, he wrote a single, 5 page later, that he mailed to 14 agencies. Not saying that isn't wierd, I'm just clarifying that bit.

On the other hand, Stearns County LE is not real good about clearing suspects - so it's possibly a logical idea to defend oneself if wrongly accused. In the murder case of a Cold Spring police officer, they arrested a man early on and let him go because of lack of evidence. They continued naming him as POI. After a few months they latched onto a different POI who eventually hung himself during a standoff with police. The 2nd POI left a suicide note that led to the murder weapon being found in a nearby house. The 2nd POI had borrowed the weapon just prior to the murder. Yet, the 1st POI in the case has yet to be cleared. Incidentally, the 1st POI grew up on the same street as DR. It's a strange world we live in.

Do you have documentation showing that he grew up there because I have documentation of him living a couple of miles away.

 

[midwestphd]

P.S. to ELOC thanks for clarification on letters. Had a source saying "fourteen letters to law enforcement agencies..." but clearly the wording there is a bit misleading.

 

[human]

The dog barking thing is definitely interesting, and something that I wondered about that Kevin's car in the driveway did not cause the dog to bark loud enough to alert DR.

As far as the kidnapping at the end of the driveway - that location looks to be about 1,000 feet +/- away from the house. It's also screened by a significant depth of woods. Depending on the breed, age, and temperament of the dog - it could react not at all, or maybe just a little, or up to a significant reaction. It's an unknown for sure.

The likelihood of sirens, and general overall commotion - are also interesting points to ponder. But - those should have been indicators way back in 1989. Did LE miss yet another opportunity to solve the case immediately?? We may never know.

My dog is a pit bull. Not known as a hunting dog.

When there is a deer or a bear in the woods, my dog is off like a shot.

That I know , I don't have people monkeying back in my woods.

Male dogs are especially territorial.

A stranger parked up the driveway and hauling off some child? I just cannot see a dog not going crazy with it. At least going up to see what is going on.

A different dog, shepherd mix, would bark to leave our house when he heard my elderly neighbor's front door open. He was only about 600 feet away. They were best buddies and would go on their daily walk together.

This was from my dog inside my house.

 

[ELOCsoul]

Do you have documentation showing that he grew up there because I have documentation of him living a couple of miles away.

No, not exactly. In a comments section of a news article, the POI #1 says he lived 2 blocks from DR's driveway. I have no way of knowing this for certain. It's not a point that I hang anything on other than it's a small, small world.

 

[human]

Not a believer that he lived two blocks away.

For some reason, he has bonded with DR.

 

[shergal]

#278 is particularly interesting - wish that video was still available

I found it! It has a new link, but it's the same video.

http://greaterminnesota.kstp.com/ne...ve-interview-jacob-wetterling-person-interest

 

[shergal]

Also, here are 2 other interviews DR did with Julie Nelson:

Part 1:
http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=875911&catid=396

Part 2:
http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=875817

 

[SelTel]

Consider the possibility that some police sketches are not actually “sketches” or “composite drawings” at all, despite being labeled as such, but are in fact a penciled overlay taken directly from a suspect’s driver’s license photograph or prior booking photograph. In this manner, iris placement and interpupillary distance, for example, are presented with precision that only the most talented portraitists are able to render freehand. Absent traumatic injury, these unique characteristics are unlikely to change in an adult over time. Eyes are perhaps the most important facial feature in identity assessment and recognition. The law enforcement objective is to provide a non-photographic image to the public that nevertheless contains elements which are unequivocally recognizable to persons who have previously encountered the specific subject of the “sketch.”


M.S.A. § 171.07, Subd. 1a (2)
M.S.A. § 299C.46
MRAP