MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #10

[SereneOne]

I let my daughter take off school for the hearing.

Honestly, she doesn't learn *that much* in a typical day in public school. I think she learned more yesterday at court.

She is currently also in a business and criminal law class, so I don't have a problem with her being in the courtroom.

Real life experience is the best teacher. We wanted to see a court proceeding first hand. (I had been to other court proceedings before, but nothing like this.) It was educational for both of us.

I agree with you, Jodibug. I'm a mom, too. I see this teen "friend's" parent's decision as entirely different from yours. I would think a parent's alarm bells would go off and matters would be taken firmly in hand if it was discovered the child claimed to be a friend--almost a fan--of the murder suspect. This girl even proudly displayed a phone pic. I would think all responsible JCHS parents would be making sure their kids had no connection with this girl and would not encourage any activity that furthered the child's interest.

 

[W8nC]

Can you link me to it? I haven't seen it yet.

Will probably be awhile before I can watch it. Need to attempt to get somewhat caught up at work, and I have a class for a couple of hours this morning as well.

People are asking whats wrong with the dad....

Did ya'll look at dad? My guess is METH is what is wrong with him!

That was my first thought.......

 

[bigflaw]

Several topics that I'd like to chime in on...

Cutting: Someone mentioned that it is to replace emotional pain with physical pain as a diversion. Bingo. And the fingernail thing, that's all she had to work with. I believe it was done for the same reason as above.

SSRIs: I have personally have suffered withdrawal from Paxil. I stopped taking it cold-turkey, and was not on the minimum dosage. My experience was a month of feeling like my head was under water, my body felt like I had the flu constantly. It was hell. That being said, I have since continued taking it, and think it is a great medication for me. I have never, even when undergoing withdrawal, felt any violent tendencies. I just felt like ****, excuse the language.

 

[tgrlaw]

I find it pretty significant that Alyssa was wisked away to a psychiatric facility later on the night of the murder. First, because it shows ILC was pretty full of crap, and obviously trying to muddy the waters, and Second, because the GP had some inkling of something very wrong with her. Haven't heard much anything about this before, but if your searching for someone and the people from the last place she was seen up and leave like that, kinda would raise some red flags.

However, if this was the case, it makes much more sense now the way the Sheriff was painting the situation as a non-abduction crime, and apparently trying to control the search the best he could without tipping his hand. I would assume no one has any information about how and when Alyssa came back from St. Louis. I am also relieved to see that media folks are giving more attention.

 

[danni]

So we know that she has someone in her home from Pathways several times a week. Were ANY of her networking sites EVER checked? If not maybe thats something that needs to be done. These counselors, phycologist, whatever they are could be getting VITAL information from these websites. With things like, "Killing people" listed as a hobby, and the Tweet, "bad decisions make great stories". I mean really?

Don't take this post the wrong way. I can't stand the thought that this hideous waste of oxygen is doing just that wasting oxygen.

i just don't understand how these things were allowed to be out in the public whens he was getting so much help!

 

[sdshelt]

I have never, even when undergoing withdrawal, felt any violent tendencies. I just felt like ****, excuse the language.

That's what I don't get. I was on Prozac when I was younger and now am on Zoloft. When I skipped a dose or quit cold turkey (which you should not do!) I never had violent tendencies either! I just felt crabby and crappy. That's it. I wonder what the difference is between us and someone like Alyssa? If being off her meds had anything to do with it.

 

[desquire]

"Later [on the night EO was reported missing], courtroom testimony revealed Bustmante's family drove her to St. Louis and checked her into a psychiatric hospital."

tgrlaw, you and I think alike. This seems like a pretty huge revelation. I'll go a step farther than "some inkiling" and say that, if true, it means that the gransparents had a reason to know or actual knowledge that Alyssa had done something to Elizabeth. It makes me really curious about exactly when/how/if the Brookes told LE. Can Jodibug or W8nc confirm that this really was the testimony yesterday?

 

[January.]

Ynotdivein- Sounds like you have some professional experience with cutters. I've heard that "just want to feel something", too, but I'm wondering what keeps them cutting? What do they feel? What is the "reward", so to speak?

I don't like to admit this because I'm still ashamed, but I used to be a cutter back when I was a teenager. I went through a few rough years dealing with depression and a stepfather who hated me and did anything and everything to make my life miserable. I would sit in my room, listen to depressing music, and cut my arms up with razor blades. It's really hard to explain the feeling. It's almost like a release. It's like it took the pain away (Emotional, not physical obviously). I felt better after cutting 100% of the time. I was hurt and angry and I took it out on myself.

 

[Raebie]

Remember, this girl is obviously conniving and sneaky. It could be she saw faking a breakdown as a way to get far far away from there. Just a thought.

 

[celticthyme]

There is a woman named Marjorie Congdon Caldwel lthat you can look up on the net. It is felt that she has killed several people but was never found guilty. She just committed her last crime, I believe last spring. She is in prison once again in Arizona. She is almost 80 years old. I don't think Alyssa can ever be fixed.

OT
Marjorie Congdon Caldwell accused of murdering her Mother and her nurse in Duluth,MN 1977
The mother was brutally murdered in her Glensheen Mansion along withe her nurse, then MCC went on to supposedly commit other murders . . . . see link below
http://wcco.com/topstories/Marjorie.Congdon.Glensheen.2.368476.html

some scary behavioral similarities to Alyssa

 

[tgrlaw]

FWIW - I am on a SSRI, have been through several, and with the current med Effexor, if i miss more than a day for some reason, i get noticeably more moody, but I am aware of it, and would never let things get out of control. I was writing something else about how depressed Alyssa my have been, but come to think of it, if she was hospitalized for attempting suicide, on anti-depressants and in this intensive outpatient conseling, maybe none of that worked because it wasn't depression. I said it before, i think her problem was a developing personality disorder. Her friends all thought she was great and nice, and yet she had these dark thoughts and desires. The stress alone from battling this conflict could, and often does, drive one to things like drugs, alcohol, and other impusive behaviors. And all the cutting is certainly indicative of Borderline personality in the making. Just my thoughts.

 

[Prof]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PastorJerry
Sorry if this is a repeat.
http://www.ksdk.com/video/default.as...01/51273517001

"Look familiar? This news report claims that this friend new that she wanted to kill someone! "

I am shocked by this man's demeanor, his off the cuff remark about his daughter knowing AB wanted to kill someone!
Are we thinking that this IS the girl who has the same last name as the ms owner -- the one who has been posting laments about AB to include something about how they were supposed to do it together?

 

[Raebie]

If in fact the GPs took her to St Louis, I don't think they knew at the time that she murdered Elizabeth. I would think they would have been charged with something if they had known.

It makes more sense to me that Alyssa either faked or had a true breakdown Wednesday evening, prompting the GPs to take her in. I think after she got there, it came out that she was involved. The GPs then contacted LE who went to the house on Thursday and found the diary. They then arranged for the GPs to bring her back on Friday for questioning.

Just my thoughts. I seriously can't believe the GPs skipped town with her to protect her. I think there would have been charges filed.

 

[Csquare]

wow, if this case had done NOTHING else you would think it would cause area parents to check out their kids myspace facebook twitter accounts in addition to finding out exactly who their kids friends are. Just wow.

Unfourtanely needing pw's to each and everyone of these sites would be a nightmare.

Does anyone know if there is a progam to install on the computer that will let you know what is being posted? Something that will alert you if certain words are used?

 

[celticthyme]

As the facts of this horrific case slowly trickle out, I can not help but feel utter sorrow and pain for every one concerned in this story, particularly the children of both families. No one should have to ever deal with this kind of tragedy and loss. The grandparents of AB, it seems, gave up their life in California to come to MO, ( without much of a support system except for their new church) to care for these grandchildren, and end up with Alyssa, whom it seems had been quite out of control for years. Who could know how to deal with a 15 year old this sick? An impossible task.
Prayers for all, that they may find loving support and a kind of peace from their church and community members.

 

[Prof]

"Later [on the night EO was reported missing], courtroom testimony revealed Bustmante's family drove her to St. Louis and checked her into a psychiatric hospital."

tgrlaw, you and I think alike. This seems like a pretty huge revelation. I'll go a step farther than "some inkiling" and say that, if true, it means that the gransparents had a reason to know or actual knowledge that Alyssa had done something to Elizabeth. It makes me really curious about exactly when/how/if the Brookes told LE. Can Jodibug or W8nc confirm that this really was the testimony yesterday?

Which begs the question: Why when a 9 year old child is missing, would you first take your grandkid 2 hours away to a mental facility?

This just does not make sense to me-- your 9 year old neighbor, who was supposed to be playing at your house is missing, and even if you had any "inkling" that the child in your custody might be responsible, why would you not want to get to the bottom of it at home right then?

If they had actual knowledge that AB had done something that night to Elizabeth, why would they not want to make sure that Elizabeth was not out there somewhere hurt or almost dead that cold rainy night?
If any of this is true, I just cannot reason why they would drive 2 hours away when a child is missing from their home!

These people made at least some living off of taking care of other people's children!

I am outraged if this turns out to be true -- I had my doubts about these people, but now?

Sorry for the rant

 

[tgrlaw]

My final remark before i go back to getting some work done. The father of the teen who knew, heard Alyssa, say she wanted to know what its like to kill someone, is disturbing, and this is one of the lessons I will take away from this. Apparently some people close to Alyssa knew of her "fantasy", but didn't or couldn't believe that she could actually act on it. My motto is if you can think it, you can do it.

If someone says something like this to you, don't blow it off. Suicidal ideation, and talk, are the first signs someone is "thinking" about suicide. I have first hand personal experience with this. My friend since kindergarten, said to me at a party after we graduated, "If it would help someone else would you kill yourself." Less than two months later he had commited suicide.

Teach your kids to understand what is just talking, and what is something to tell someone about. My son has a classmate and former friend with lots of issues, and I have made it clear to my son, if that kid says or does anything that is not right to tell someone.

 

[W8nC]

"Later [on the night EO was reported missing], courtroom testimony revealed Bustmante's family drove her to St. Louis and checked her into a psychiatric hospital."

tgrlaw, you and I think alike. This seems like a pretty huge revelation. I'll go a step farther than "some inkiling" and say that, if true, it means that the gransparents had a reason to know or actual knowledge that Alyssa had done something to Elizabeth. It makes me really curious about exactly when/how/if the Brookes told LE. Can Jodibug or W8nc confirm that this really was the testimony yesterday?

I was not able to attend the afternoon session, and I didn't hear this in the morning hearing. First I heard of it was on KRCG at 10pm last night. I went looking for it on their website to see if they said where the info came from, and couldn't find it.

I can see several possible explanations....IF IT'S TRUE....
1) they knew EO was missing, saw AB acting strangely or maybe with blood on her and did realize there was, or could be, a connection, and decided to get her out of town. Could be for her own safety or the safety of the other kids, or could be to get her off LE radar till they could make a decision about what to do.

2) they may have seen AB with blood on her and thought she'd either killed an animal or had been cutting herself in a serious way and not even connected it to EO's disappearance.

3) AB may have hidden any bloody clothing, but still displayed erratic or psychotic behavior that scared them, so they took her in for treatment.

4) story may not be true at all

If they drove her to St Louis, did they take the rest of the kids with them? Did the other kids go to school on Thursday? Did aunt KP babysit the other kids while GM/GF/AB were driving to St L and back? When did AB get back? How did she get released so quickly? Was that because JC LE already knew (grandparents called and told them what was up maybe?), so they controlled the search and the news until they could get a chance to talk to her? Maybe the written evidence is a statement she gave at the psychiatric facility?


So many possibilities added by a single sentence I heard on TV news......
:banghead:

 

[Raebie]

Which begs the question: Why when a 9 year old child is missing, would you first take your grandkid 2 hours away to a mental facility?

This just does not make sense to me-- your 9 year old neighbor, who was supposed to be playing at your house is missing, and even if you had any "inkling" that the child in your custody might be responsible, why would you not want to get to the bottom of it at home right then?

If they had actual knowledge that AB had done something that night to Elizabeth, why would they not want to make sure that Elizabeth was not out there somewhere hurt or almost dead that cold rainy night?
If any of this is true, I just cannot reason why they would drive 2 hours away when a child is missing from their home!

These people made at least some living off of taking care of other people's children!

I am outraged if this turns out to be true -- I had my doubts about these people, but now?

Sorry for the rant

If she was hysterical and threatening suicide, I could see that. And we really don't know how soon they contacted LE if they really went to St Louis. It could have been very soon after they arrived, which would explain the lack of an Amber Alert. We just don't know.

 

[Dal Gal]

Also, IF the GPs did take Alyssa to StL, then it would have been after initially speaking to police at their home and going over to the Olten home (the supposed filming-of-the-argument incident). We're talking after 8pm???