MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[vjlaw]

At least until 2008, Catlett (new attorney filing on the case per Casenet) was referred to as a PD -- does it work the same if another PD volunteers?

I don't know how the PD system works, but Catlett is from Columbia, 30 miles away from Jefferson City and a different county. I always thought the PD came from the county where the crime occurred. If Catlett is now a private attorney, he could take this pro bono since mental illness seems to be his interest or experience. jmo

 

[Prof]

Catlett -"an experienced public defender who had represented several defendants with mental problems.: http://www.law.cornell.edu/usca/search/index.html?query=495 AND 33 AND Missouri

Here's a news article on the same case as mentioned in the Cornell Law opinion above
http://www.pitch.com/2005-06-09/news/blood-simple/4/addComment

Here is an article that he co-authored http://www.mobar.org/e4cace40-4d6b-4acd-a237-127ee910688c.aspx

Another case of his: 1998 "Alis Ben Johns" tried in Pulaski County

I wonder how he got involed in AB's case?

Here's another AB's new attorney's clients (client's initials are RW on this list)
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/angels/male_nurses/14.html

 

[vjlaw]

By law, they have to be. The Department of Corrections nor the Division of Youth Services can't take anyone that hasn't been convicted of a crime and sentenced to serve time with them.

Also, I used the dual jurisdiction as a condition for a plea bargain, not to wait for trial. Just wanting to clarify that as I am aware dual jurisdiction is used for the sentencing of youth tried as adults who have entered a guilty plea or who have been found guilty by jury. I am not sure the law reads that she has to be tried before 17 or if she is entered into the adult court before she is 17. She was certified before she was 16.

 

[Prof]

I want to believe in our children and our future, the ability to change -- I do not believe that there are people who are born evil, or more evil than anyone else -- AB is a child, possibly less advantaged both mentally and emotionally than you or I-- that is all I know

Of course I am outraged at the murder of Elizabeth

I am not convinced that the loss of two children will be any justice

 

[LogicalMinds]

I want to believe in our children and our future, the ability to change -- I do not believe that there are people who are born evil, or more evil than anyone else -- AB is a child, possibly less advantaged both mentally and emotionally than you or I-- that is all I know

Of course I am outraged at the murder of Elizabeth

I am not convinced that the loss of two children will be any justice

While we are all entitled to our opinions, I have yet to see anyone urging some sort of rehab/back to society deal for Allyssa say exactly HOW this would work...and HOW they could assure "society" that she was safe

What programs are there to "rehab" or change a sociopath??? Someone who has no feeling or capacity for guilt??

Take the case of Michael Hernandez (google him/Jaime Gough)...since it is in Florida you can read and watch every detail

How would you "change" him?? He had a goal...to be a killer...he started work on that goal at 14

So far there doesn't seem to be any particular drug that works on a lack of conscience..

and what sort of therapy?? Can you name a place that studies/works with sociopaths?? What do they do?? Group therapy?? The sociopath is likable, mallable, changing to say what others want to hear

One on one therapy...again a sociopath is a skilled liar, saying what people want to hear

Can anyone show a study that had a positive outcome over a period of years working with a number of sociopaths?? thanks

 

[Jodibug]

I don't think that Montgomery City is a given.

My stepfather who used to work at WERDCC in Vandalia says that Alyssa will be going there. (he also used to work with CSquare at another facility).

Anyway, I checked their website and they do house certified juvenilles.

http://www.doc.mo.gov/division/adult/werdcc.htm

facility confines 2,076 minimum to maximum (C-1 to C-5) female inmates and certified juveniles.

So don't pack her bags for Montgomery City yet.

 

[vjlaw]

I don't think that Montgomery City is a given.

My stepfather who used to work at WERDCC in Vandalia says that Alyssa will be going there. (he also used to work with CSquare at another facility).

Anyway, I checked their website and they do house certified juvenilles.

http://www.doc.mo.gov/division/adult/werdcc.htm

facility confines 2,076 minimum to maximum (C-1 to C-5) female inmates and certified juveniles.

So don't pack her bags for Montgomery City yet.

I know I wasn't saying it was a given that she was going to Montgomery City. I just was saying the juvenile authorities are the ones who brought up the possibility of dual jurisdiction with AB. I was just bringing up that maybe the dual jurisdiction could be used in a plea bargain. No one can say for sure where she is going until the judge says so.

 

[Jodibug]

Somewhere in a long ago thread I believe someone said that Montgomery City was the only place to house juvenille females.

I just wanted to point out that Vandalia also houses them.

 

[eyes4crime]

While we are all entitled to our opinions, I have yet to see anyone urging some sort of rehab/back to society deal for Allyssa say exactly HOW this would work...and HOW they could assure "society" that she was safe

What programs are there to "rehab" or change a sociopath??? Someone who has no feeling or capacity for guilt??

Take the case of Michael Hernandez (google him/Jaime Gough)...since it is in Florida you can read and watch every detail

How would you "change" him?? He had a goal...to be a killer...he started work on that goal at 14

So far there doesn't seem to be any particular drug that works on a lack of conscience..

and what sort of therapy?? Can you name a place that studies/works with sociopaths?? What do they do?? Group therapy?? The sociopath is likable, mallable, changing to say what others want to hear

One on one therapy...again a sociopath is a skilled liar, saying what people want to hear

Can anyone show a study that had a positive outcome over a period of years working with a number of sociopaths?? thanks

I think your post is right on - agree with all the scenarios.

Let's not forget the symptom found in sociopaths/psychopaths that is one of the scariest - the addiction to the power and control that murder provides and the ever escalating need for it. Can manifest itself in shorter intervals between kills, increased violence, increased sadistic and brutal acts to the victim's body. This escalation is found in those who get high from the power and control they experience from the murder. mho

I can't provide even one study by anyone credible showing sociopaths/psychopaths are helped through therapy - I can show studies that they get worse, more clever, and become a more manipulative, cunning, criminal. mho

ETA: I find it heartbreaking to write such horrible scenarios for a teenager. In this case I'm going to go with the literature and if it turns out there is some explanation for her murder, I will be happy to change my mind. mho

 

[danni]

I don't think that Montgomery City is a given.

My stepfather who used to work at WERDCC in Vandalia says that Alyssa will be going there. (he also used to work with CSquare at another facility).

Anyway, I checked their website and they do house certified juvenilles.

http://www.doc.mo.gov/division/adult/werdcc.htm

facility confines 2,076 minimum to maximum (C-1 to C-5) female inmates and certified juveniles.

So don't pack her bags for Montgomery City yet.

HAHA good luck getting someone to believe ya or the website or the MODOC info! I have only posted it about seven times (maybe even more) and no one seems to honestly think it is a possibility that she might actually be going to prison because she is "to young" and they can't do that to her!

thanks for posting it again though!

 

[vjlaw]

HAHA good luck getting someone to believe ya or the website or the MODOC info! I have only posted it about seven times (maybe even more) and no one seems to honestly think it is a possibility that she might actually be going to prison because she is "to young" and they can't do that to her!

thanks for posting it again though!

Yeh I know exactly what you mean about getting someone to believe something. I guess the juvenile authorities didn't know what they were talking about when they said it was a possibility. lol

 

[vjlaw]

Here's a quick explanation of AB being possibly being eligible for dual jurisdiction...

"If tried as an adult, the teenager could still become eligible for treatment through the state division of youth services.

"You'd have to have a certification and you'd have to have a finding of guilt," said Legal Counsel Samantha Green, "and conviction in the adult courts for dual jurisdiction.

http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?id=368523

 

[WholeLottaRosie]

I don't know how the PD system works, but Catlett is from Columbia, 30 miles away from Jefferson City and a different county. I always thought the PD came from the county where the crime occurred. If Catlett is now a private attorney, he could take this pro bono since mental illness seems to be his interest or experience. jmo

In Missouri, if the PD's office in the county the crime happened in has a conflict of interest (and this could be representing or having recently represented anyone else in the family of the defendant or the family of the victim) the State PD will reassign to another PD in the St - the PD office in another county in the state and then the head of that office will select an attorney in their office to handle the case. This looks like what could have happened here.

 

[danni]

Yeh I know exactly what you mean about getting someone to believe something. I guess the juvenile authorities didn't know what they were talking about when they said it was a possibility. lol

I think what I posted might have been taken wrong. Let me TRY to clear it up...

I simply posted FACTS about the DYS Dual Jurisdiction Program.

I think it is POSSIBLE that IF sentencing or a plea deal comes PRIOR to her 17 birthday, JANUARY 28, 2011 then she MAY be sent to Montgomery City to the DYS facility there.

However I do NOT think that this will be over and done with PRIOR to January 28, 2011. I also do not think that if it is within three or six months of this date that they would send her to this facility and waste more time and money. There is A LOT that goes into getting assest and made sure that they are eligible for the program. Then they would have to do it all over again when she acutally turnes 17.

THIS IS MY OPINION! AND ONLY MY OPINION.
Where is my ride?

 

[UnicornTears]

Hi everybody! This is my first post and I’m looking forward to participating in the discussions around here. I’ve been following this case in particular since first learning of it on the news when Elizabeth was still just another missing child.

My thoughts, tears, and deepest sympathy go out to Elizabeth's family and friends, for this, what must seem a nightmare will weigh upon them heavily, and at times might feel unbearable to them long into the future, if not forever. I’m sure they all miss her very much. I never knew her, but I can empathize with what it might be like. They must all be terribly sad.

To preface this, I'm not a professional, and all my opinions here are just that. I have no degrees in law—actually very little knowledge about it at all, and I’m not a "board-certified" anything.

Before this case, my opinion was that of most, which is to say that those who commit crimes like these, deserve, at best solitary confinement for the rest of their natural lives, if not an expedited spot on the lethal-injection queue. That still is my general opinion in most cases. But because of the age of the accused, and the fact that it involves two young females, in my heart that makes me deeply sad for both of them.

That a 15 year old girl, essentially at the very beginning of her life—would, with full knowledge of the consequences, risk throwing all those possibilities away to know what it’s like to kill someone boggles my mind. In light of the fact that she has already attempted to kill herself several times in the course of her short life, proves to me(in my lay opinion, of course) that there is indeed something desperately wrong with her physically, psychologically and/or emotionally, for her to feel so callously about her own young life, that of others, and of life in general. Because I truly believe that, I’m glad Alyssa is not eligible for the death penalty, and I sincerely hope that whatever punishment is eventually meted out for her, part of that time will be spent addressing what exactly the nature of the damage that’s been inflicted upon her over the years is, and how it might be possible to fix it(I do believe it's possible). I honestly hope something can be done to prove to her that she is human, worth something, and that what she did can never be acceptable for any reason and for her to know that in her heart. We have to believe it's possible. It's too easy for them to see how little we really care otherwise.

By no means am I excusing what Alyssa did because of the problems that she has, but at the same time, as a relatively well-balanced and intuitive adult, it’s not that difficult for me to extrapolate how exposure to prolonged violence, abuse, criminal and deviant behavior, and even some of the generally-accepted adult behaviors that we humans engage in, might to a child with serious and for the most part, untreated emotional damage like Alyssa(IMO))—be all it takes for them to snap effectively. Because of that, Alyssa deserves a chance to redeem herself and she owes that to Elizabeth IMO. I have a feeling that over the years she's been made to feel pretty worthless, unwanted, and has felt deep in her heart for a long time that she's a burden and a bad kid. I could be wrong, but what we know at least suggests otherwise.

As much as Alyssa has garnered contempt and hatred for what she's done, as adults we should be trying to learn whatever we can from this to prevent our own children from becoming the victims or perpetrators of murder. Otherwise, Elizabeth will have died in vain. We can learn from this. We need to show them life is a precious thing, and that gratuitous violence in music, movies, video games et al. and laughing at anyone, especially children getting hurt—like is done routinely on broadcast and cable TV networks—is not funny, and that those aren’t things to be trivialized or taken lightly. We have to show them that when they're getting beat up or teased in school, that we care about those things, and that they feel safe and secure enough to talk to us honestly about their feelings and problems. Our kids have forgotten how important they are and how important life is in general. We as adults are responsible for that, and should be deeply ashamed.

Sorry this was so long, but I had to get those things off my chest. They've been bothering me for some time now...This stuff just keeps getting worse and worse. We have to see that something is going wrong with our kids.

 

[UnicornTears]

Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to separate my diatribe up there from my personal feelings and opinion about AB's state of mind, from actual questions and info about the case, for clarity purposes.

It's interesting to me that AB's new public defender you guys were referring to has some experience dealing with the mental-illness and disability defense. When I first heard that, immediately what came to my mind was how some time ago I came across a page where there were people talking about the case and one of the people commenting claimed they knew AB personally. This person was obviously upset about how people were talking about AB. I've seen people protecting her before, but what struck me about this particular instance was that this person intimated that the reason Alyssa should be given sympathy was that she is "Autistic."

Now of course, like I said this was just a single post on a message board that I think was either a news station comment page, or some other one that dealt with the case in some fashion. So in that way it's possible it was just some nut job trying to get attention or otherwise could have been anybody just making stuff up. It stuck out in my mind though because that was the first and last time I've seen anyone say anything even close to that.

Anyways, did anyone else see that post? And hypothetically speaking, I wonder how if a crime like this was committed by someone with either full-blown Autism, or ever Asperber's syndrome, how that might affect the case. Could it? Should it?

 

[Prof]

:Welcome-12-june:

WELCOME! Unicorn Tears

Hi everybody! This is my first post and I’m looking forward to participating in the discussions around here. .

Great first post!
and not just because I happen to hold the same opinions

IMO certifying AB as an adult is in a way shirking our responsiblity as adults, and to sentence AB to LWOP in prison is to ensure that Elizabeth's death stays pointless --

You have hit on some critical issues in your post;
IMO the most critical:
"Our kids have forgotten how important they are and how important life is in general."

I might change the words "have forgotten" to "have not been taught"

Thank you for your post

 

[Prof]

Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to separate my diatribe up there from my personal feelings and opinion about AB's state of mind, from actual questions and info about the case, for clarity purposes.

It's interesting to me that AB's new public defender you guys were referring to has some experience dealing with the mental-illness and disability defense. When I first heard that, immediately what came to my mind was how some time ago I came across a page where there were people talking about the case and one of the people commenting claimed they knew AB personally. This person was obviously upset about how people were talking about AB. I've seen people protecting her before, but what struck me about this particular instance was that this person intimated that the reason Alyssa should be given sympathy was that she is "Autistic."

Now of course, like I said this was just a single post on a message board that I think was either a news station comment page, or some other one that dealt with the case in some fashion. So in that way it's possible it was just some nut job trying to get attention or otherwise could have been anybody just making stuff up. It stuck out in my mind though because that was the first and last time I've seen anyone say anything even close to that.

Anyways, did anyone else see that post? And hypothetically speaking, I wonder how if a crime like this was committed by someone with either full-blown Autism, or ever Asperber's syndrome, how that might affect the case. Could it? Should it?

I am very interested in this new PD and how he got involved in this case

When we first started hearing about AB, I think I remember rumors that she was "slow" or had some type of learning disablity, but nothing like "Autism" UPDATE: This was a rumor brought to Websleuths by a local -- the rumor came the day of the arrest -- and it was going around that the perp was a school bully and several grades behind on this thread http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90695&page=6
(I think that is the only time I heard that, and we discovered that AB was not behind in school)

To contradict the "slow" rumor, we have the testimony from court stating that she was a good student, and a report of some award earned for students with a high GPA -- IMO this would not contradict your rumor

IDK but I would think that if she had any form of Autism it would have been brought up in court---

hmmn

 

[vjlaw]

I think what I posted might have been taken wrong. Let me TRY to clear it up...

I simply posted FACTS about the DYS Dual Jurisdiction Program.

I think it is POSSIBLE that IF sentencing or a plea deal comes PRIOR to her 17 birthday, JANUARY 28, 2011 then she MAY be sent to Montgomery City to the DYS facility there.

However I do NOT think that this will be over and done with PRIOR to January 28, 2011. I also do not think that if it is within three or six months of this date that they would send her to this facility and waste more time and money. There is A LOT that goes into getting assest and made sure that they are eligible for the program. Then they would have to do it all over again when she acutally turnes 17.

THIS IS MY OPINION! AND ONLY MY OPINION.
Where is my ride?

In my opinion, the juvenile authorities know all that, and they still said it was a possibilty.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Hi...just checking in..

has ANYONE found any info on how they "treat" sociopaths and how the success rate is measured??

I am very curious about that..thanks