MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #5

[paris_paris]

If Mom texted "Time to come home" and got a reply "On my way" at 6:15, and then she wasn't home by 7:00... Mom would have called/texted again and gotten no answer. That in itself is a reason to call LE. You would think Mom would check outside and look up the yards from front and back to check first.

Maybe when she got no reply on the cell, she called the friend's house at that point. They may have said she left when you called at 6:15, or she left at 5:00. 5:00 would put me in panic mode.

 

[Raebie]

You don't think there was any blood involved?

another quesiton.
When PD showed up would they have came lights and sirens?
If they did and AB was still in the woods she would have heard that. Giving her signal to get out of there.

More likely that she heard them calling for Elizabeth.

 

[KAE]

More likely that she heard them calling for Elizabeth.

OMG, that gives me the creeps.

 

[Raebie]

I know, but I don't see how she couldn't have heard, given the proximity. You know they were calling for her.

 

[sleuthysleuth]

Don't you think they (LE) had to suspect this girl from the beginning? Hence, no Amber Alert... I'm trying to picture the timeline in my head as well as the interviews they conducted at the place in which she was last seen- and I can't help wonder what the suspect's behavior was that night/during the search.

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

My chilldren were raised in the 60's. I was a single mom for a number of those years and when I wasn't, I remained the main disciplinarian. When my boys threw rocks at a car, they carried a rock around for 24 hours. I checked every hour or so to be sure they still had it and reminded them that if they liked rocks, they should enjoy carrying it.
When my son took to spitting at his siblings, he had to sit at the table and spit a bowl full before he could get up. "You like to spit, so spit" He got cotton mouth real quick and I had to turn him loose after about an hour. He didn't spit again.I swatted bottoms when I could come up with no other means.

When my daughter carved her name in my cedar chest, while she was being punished in her room, I taught her a valuable lesson about anger. When I went to let her out of her room, I told her that I was no longer angry with her for what she did so I would let her come out. Then I asked if she were still angry with me. Of course, she said "no" and I asked how she was going to take back the scratches in the cedar chest. We compromised when I saw how crushed she was and used a scarf to cover the top. But she remembers that to this day.

Parents do not have to "beat" their children, but I feel we should retain the option of corporal punishment without being threatened to be turned in for abuse as my 6 year old grandson is known to do. "You can't hit me. That's abuse" grrrrrrrrrrr

BBM

<taking notes> I disipline the same way. Have to get creative sometimes.

 

[Lqqkout]

MDATCA, if AB has a defect from her mother's use during pregnancy, it would be an irreversible biological defect; one that can not be rehabilitated ie: fetal alcohol syndrome. I think he would skip over that in a flash. He'll try to prove she has teen angst or something that can be helped through rehab. Otherwise, it's lock her up and throw away the key. She's damaged goods.

I thought she once lived in an upscale neighborhood in La Jolla, CA? Or am I confused with another case?

 

[Mom2Yaya]

Even if AB strangled Elizabeth first, wouldn't there still be blood on her (AB)? No spatter, but I would think there would still be blood on AB afterwards.

My daughter is 8, she's an only child, and my husband and I are pretty overprotective parents. If I talked to her at 6:15 and wanted her to come home and she told me she was headed that way and she didn't show up for 45 minutes, that'd be enough to send me into panic mode, to be honest. She's a really complacent child (for now) and there's no way she'd veer off course and be jacking around knowing we had asked her to come home. Factor in a fear of darkness and woods (which my dd has as well) and the mother stepping out of the house and calling and looking for Elizabeth without response and I'd be in full-blown paranoia where-the-hell-is-my-daughter mode.

 

[Mom2Yaya]

Sorry for the double post.

 

[Lqqkout]

My chilldren were raised in the 60's. I was a single mom for a number of those years and when I wasn't, I remained the main disciplinarian. When my boys threw rocks at a car, they carried a rock around for 24 hours. I checked every hour or so to be sure they still had it and reminded them that if they liked rocks, they should enjoy carrying it.
When my son took to spitting at his siblings, he had to sit at the table and spit a bowl full before he could get up. "You like to spit, so spit" He got cotton mouth real quick and I had to turn him loose after about an hour. He didn't spit again.

I swatted bottoms when I could come up with no other means.

When my daughter carved her name in my cedar chest, while she was being punished in her room, I taught her a valuable lesson about anger. When I went to let her out of her room, I told her that I was no longer angry with her for what she did so I would let her come out. Then I asked if she were still angry with me. Of course, she said "no" and I asked how she was going to take back the scratches in the cedar chest. We compromised when I saw how crushed she was and used a scarf to cover the top. But she remembers that to this day.

Parents do not have to "beat" their children, but I feel we should retain the option of corporal punishment without being threatened to be turned in for abuse as my 6 year old grandson is known to do. "You can't hit me. That's abuse" grrrrrrrrrrr

I applaud your parenting skills ! Good for you !

 

[vjlaw]

Just some points to ponder....This is a 15 yr old girl, would she think about how quickly the mother would go looking for Elizabeth? Also, would a 15 yr old girl know if she was really dead or just lost consciousness if she strangled her first. Therefore, she may have still been alive when she used a knife. If that is what happened. I haven't heard a peep out of what the autopsy found.

 

[Mendara]

Don't you think they (LE) had to suspect this girl from the beginning? Hence, no Amber Alert... I'm trying to picture the timeline in my head as well as the interviews they conducted at the place in which she was last seen- and I can't help wonder what the suspect's behavior was that night/during the search.

There was no Amber alert because the case did not fit the requirements for an ambert alert - it had nothing to do with having a suspect - if they had a suspect in mind then the amber alert woul dhave been issued as one of the requirements is description of vehicle or suspect.

 

[la_cavalière]

I wonder if the suspect participated in the searches for Elizabeth, either right after she didn't come home or in later searches?

I also wonder if she told her twin brothers or involved them in any way... in the videos they really seem to look up to her and think she's cool.

Did she still have access to a video camera?

 

[sleuthysleuth]

To be clear, I wasn't asking or wondering why there was no Amber Alert- I understood why they didn't issue one. They didn't feel an abduction had occured. What I was wondering was-were they suspicious of her from the beginning? They had to be, right? I mean, could she have kept her cool when they were questioning her- which they had to be because Elizabeth was last seen at their house.

 

[mydailyopinions]

I wonder if the suspect participated in the searches for Elizabeth, either right after she didn't come home or in later searches?

I also wonder if she told her twin brothers or involved them in any way... in the videos they really seem to look up to her and think she's cool.

Did she still have access to a video camera?

Did who still have access to a video camera?
ETA: Never mind, I didn't read where you were asking about the "suspect" My bad..

 

[la_cavalière]

Did who still have access to a video camera?

The suspect. She posted videos on You Tube of her brothers, egging them on to do dangerous tunts to hurt themselves. So if this were a pre-planned act, would she have possibly tried to video that as well? It's too creepy to contemplate...

 

[concernedmamaof2]

I'm not hugely overprotective, but if either of my kids had been allowed to be at a friends and walk home alone and had only been a few houses away, I would certainly have called LE if I hadn't heard from them in that length of time. It's quite possible her mom did look for her, we don't have the facts. I haven't heard any rumors about that, even, which is odd. The area where they live is very wooded, and when it starts to get dark it's dark. It's not like it's a subdivision with lights and heavy traffic. It's a state road, with ditches for sides and woods in the back of the houses. Very scary if your child doesn't show up in a few minutes, I'm sure, not that it wouldn't be terrifying in any circumstance.

I am curious to hear more from the mother, which I don't know if we ever will. Did Elizabeth normally go there? What was her routine?

 

[velvetrose]

What has had me puzzled is this. She was pretty darn close to home and supposedly at someone's house that the parents trusted. The call was made for her to come home at 6:15. The cops were called at 7:00. Now I am an overprotective mom, but that seems like an incredibly quick call. Let's assume 15 minutes to get herself going and make the walk. That would be a 6:30 arrival time. Did Elizabeth's mom have reason to suspect something was up that would precipitate a call to the cops that quickly? Did they spend any time looking for her first?

Us Mom's have a way about us that we can sense when our children are in trouble. She knew something was not right and suspected AB.

 

[Bibliophile]

Don't you think they (LE) had to suspect this girl from the beginning? Hence, no Amber Alert... I'm trying to picture the timeline in my head as well as the interviews they conducted at the place in which she was last seen- and I can't help wonder what the suspect's behavior was that night/during the search.

I think there were several reasons why there was no Amber Alert. One: the criteria for issue is very specific. They made it that way so it would not be overused and cause the public to become immune to them.

Two: As I have posted about before, the area in which LE was concentrated and specific. This all took place in an area quite small. It is semi-rural, on a rural, paved route, almost like a private subdivision. There are four houses sitting directly adjacent to one another with large backyards that back up to woods. AB's grandparents property is a bit larger and set apart to the south. The total distance from AB's house to Elizabeth's is only about 350 yards; less than a quarter of a mile.

Elizabeth didn't walk along the road, so the chance of stranger abduction was near zero. The time period between when she was last seen and when LE arrived was limited and the people she could have encountered was limited.

The criteria for an Amber Alert simply was not met.

I also think that once those LE investigators who were experienced in child crime were able to observe or talk to AB and her family, their radars were activated. I know that several were pushing for access to interview and for those interviews to be undertaken by an investigator specially certified to do so.

 

[concernedmamaof2]

I agree, Bibliophile. I think they already knew there was virtually no chance of stranger abduction, so they were checking locals. I'd say that once AB's family was questioned (and if AB wasn't there it might have been a red flag), they narrowed it down.

I didn't realize until this case that there were such narrow criteria for Amber Alert, because my first thought was "Why no Amber Alert?".

We haven't driven out there. Their area doesn't have streetlights, does it? I was just going by memory on the assumptions that it didn't, but that the individual houses might.