MO - Furious Friends Demand Answers After 3 Men Found Dead at Kansas City Home Days After Watching Football Game, January 2024 #2

[Simply Southern]

BBM. I think the victims being outdoors for a couple of days in a winter storm precluded any type of drug testing on the scene.

JMO

True, I do think there would be reminisce, paraphernalia that could quickly be tested. "Something" at the scene lead this investigation to 100% exclude homicide.

I know several of our LE have "drops" and test strips available, and use to test incidents in our schools, quickly. Moo

Moo ...

 

[imstilla.grandma]

 

[SMK777]

Thank you for posting this CBS report.

 

[NCWatcher]

No answer to the door, no communication with family for several days and the vehicle being present is called "probable cause."

It's also a moot point because in this case, the door was answered, LE entered and received permission to search the house.

JMO

How to Do a Welfare Check: What It Is and When to Request One

Do you have a friend, loved one, or acquaintance that you just can't seem to get in touch with? A welfare check (also known as a wellness check or a police welfare check) could be the solution that you're looking for. Read on to learn...

www.wikihow.com

But there's a difference between asking for a welfare check for Person X who lives in a particular house and hasn't been seen and can't be reached (the situation addressed in the Wiki link provided) and asking LE to break into Person X's house because (adult) Person Y's girlfriend is looking for him. And she thinks Person Y watched a game at Person X's house a day or two before. And his truck is parked on the street near by. The most probable explanation for Person Y being missing is not that he's dead or in imminent danger inside Person X's house. MOO

 

[Simply Southern]

The families must know the COD. Moo
Missouri requires a death certificate within 5 days and prior to burial.
I'm wondering what the COD is on the death certificates.

193.145

Death certificate — electronic system — contents, filing, locale, duties of certain persons, time allowed — certificate marked presumptive, when — training, failure to complete, effect of.

revisor.mo.gov

A certificate of death for each death which occurs in this state shall be filed with the local registrar, or as otherwise directed by the state registrar, within five days after death and shall be registered if such certificate has been completed and filed pursuant to this section.
[...]
7. If the circumstances suggest that the death was caused by other than natural causes, the medical examiner or coroner shall determine the cause of death and shall, either by signature or an approved electronic process, complete and attest to the accuracy of the medical certification within seventy-two hours after taking charge of the case.

 

[SMK777]

The families must know the COD. Moo
Missouri requires a death certificate within 5 days and prior to burial.
I'm wondering what the COD is on the death certificates.

193.145

Death certificate — electronic system — contents, filing, locale, duties of certain persons, time allowed — certificate marked presumptive, when — training, failure to complete, effect of.

revisor.mo.gov

A certificate of death for each death which occurs in this state shall be filed with the local registrar, or as otherwise directed by the state registrar, within five days after death and shall be registered if such certificate has been completed and filed pursuant to this section.
[...]
7. If the circumstances suggest that the death was caused by other than natural causes, the medical examiner or coroner shall determine the cause of death and shall, either by signature or an approved electronic process, complete and attest to the accuracy of the medical certification within seventy-two hours after taking charge of the case.

But surely this is sometimes delayed. I don’t believe we’ve heard anything about funerals or burials. The cause of death has not been stated by the medical examiner.

 

[MyBelle]

But there's a difference between asking for a welfare check for Person X who lives in a particular house and hasn't been seen and can't be reached (the situation addressed in the Wiki link provided) and asking LE to break into Person X's house because (adult) Person Y's girlfriend is looking for him. And she thinks Person Y watched a game at Person X's house a day or two before. And his truck is parked on the street near by. The most probable explanation for Person Y being missing is not that he's dead or in imminent danger inside Person X's house. MOO

BBM. Evidently the girlfriend didn't agree with your "most probable" scenario because she broke into the home.

In this case, the families say they DID try to reach the men and got no response. #5 had been at the house and JW wasn't responding to him. JW didn't answer knocks at the door and the men's vehicles were still at the house. If it happened to me, my biggest fear would be carbon monoxide poisoning and I would phone LE for a welfare check.

JMO

 

[mmmagique]

But surely this is sometimes delayed. I don’t believe we’ve heard anything about funerals or burials. The cause of death has not been stated by the medical examiner.

The funerals were held last weekend. One on Friday, one on Saturday and one on Sunday.

 

[sprightly]

... Willis denied any wrongdoing and has not been charged. He told police the men froze to death in his backyard while he slept inside with music and a fan so he couldn’t hear their cries for help ...

RSBM -- this, from the article, also seems misleading. Based on what I suspect happened, the men were dead without even having time to cry for help. Besides, if that had been the case, even if Willis hadn't heard them, his neighbors would've. I think they were unconscious very quickly and probably succumbed to either whatever substance they were exposed to or hypothermia without ever regaining consciousness.

 

[LauraAnne]

It's hard to believe if the host of the party had anything to do with their deaths, he would have left them in the backyard in plain sight. I'm guessing something like tainted marijuana, accidental death.

 

[MyBelle]

The families must know the COD. Moo
Missouri requires a death certificate within 5 days and prior to burial.
I'm wondering what the COD is on the death certificates.

193.145

Death certificate — electronic system — contents, filing, locale, duties of certain persons, time allowed — certificate marked presumptive, when — training, failure to complete, effect of.

revisor.mo.gov

A certificate of death for each death which occurs in this state shall be filed with the local registrar, or as otherwise directed by the state registrar, within five days after death and shall be registered if such certificate has been completed and filed pursuant to this section.
[...]
7. If the circumstances suggest that the death was caused by other than natural causes, the medical examiner or coroner shall determine the cause of death and shall, either by signature or an approved electronic process, complete and attest to the accuracy of the medical certification within seventy-two hours after taking charge of the case.

Death certificates can be amended in Missouri.

https://health.mo.gov/about/proposedrules/pdf/19CSR10-10.110.pdf

2. The medical information can be [changed] corrected only by the medical certifier, coroner, medical examiner, or personnel of the institution responsible for filing the certificate. Cause of death information can be [amended] corrected only by the medical certifier, coroner, or medical examiner.

 

[Simply Southern]

But surely this is sometimes delayed. I don’t believe we’ve heard anything about funerals or burials. The cause of death has not been stated by the medical examiner.

I forget which victim, but at least one funeral.

Is the medical examiner required by law to publicly release the information?
Most of the time, I hear this initially from LE, if a trial, the ME usually speaks.

Moo...

 

[10ofRods]

The families must know the COD. Moo
Missouri requires a death certificate within 5 days and prior to burial.
I'm wondering what the COD is on the death certificates.

193.145

Death certificate — electronic system — contents, filing, locale, duties of certain persons, time allowed — certificate marked presumptive, when — training, failure to complete, effect of.

revisor.mo.gov

A certificate of death for each death which occurs in this state shall be filed with the local registrar, or as otherwise directed by the state registrar, within five days after death and shall be registered if such certificate has been completed and filed pursuant to this section.
[...]
7. If the circumstances suggest that the death was caused by other than natural causes, the medical examiner or coroner shall determine the cause of death and shall, either by signature or an approved electronic process, complete and attest to the accuracy of the medical certification within seventy-two hours after taking charge of the case.

In several cases I've followed, the death certificate had "pending" in the column for MoD and CoD (and sometimes for other things - such as whether autopsy was completed). I think it's pretty common to go ahead and issue the death certificate provisionally (eventually it has to go all the way to the CDC and other federal agencies, is my understanding). In the case of missing person Jin Fang (there's a thread here), the DC was filed with a pending CoD (seems to be hyperthermia in that case - hard to detect upon autopsy; the toxicology reports were still pending).

I think that's what happened in the Matthew Perry case too. Families want to bury their loved ones and hold funerals in a manner most suitable to their own grieving - the DC doesn't have to have everything filled out on its first pass through the system.

It can be filed per the statute, but not "registered" as complete, IOW. Clause 7 is impossible to perform completely in 72 hours - and I think that too means that by saying "Unknown" in the CoD column (and MoD too), the requirement is fulfilled - but the certificate can be changed (and probably will be). It would true, as far as is known to put "unknown" rather than either natural or unnatural CoD. I believe "natural" means "of a disease process within the person's own body," and would not include hypothermia. Even if all three ultimately died because their hearts stopped or their breathing was too shallow - that's not a "natural" death for three young men.

But determining the cause could easily take 4-6 weeks (toxicology rarely gets done faster than that and in many cases absolutely has to be done in steps, finding evidence and determining which further tests to make). Even if they could get BAL's within 72 hours, they have to rule out other toxins for sure.

IMO.

 

[Simply Southern]

Death certificates can be amended in Missouri.

https://health.mo.gov/about/proposedrules/pdf/19CSR10-10.110.pdf

2. The medical information can be [changed] corrected only by the medical certifier, coroner, medical examiner, or personnel of the institution responsible for filing the certificate. Cause of death information can be [amended] corrected only by the medical certifier, coroner, or medical examiner.

True, I only concerned with the initial findings. The families claim they have no idea, which is so sad. Moo

In several cases I've followed, the death certificate had "pending" in the column for MoD and CoD (and sometimes for other things - such as whether autopsy was completed). I think it's pretty common to go ahead and issue the death certificate provisionally (eventually it has to go all the way to the CDC and other federal agencies, is my understanding). In the case of missing person Jin Fang (there's a thread here), the DC was filed with a pending CoD (seems to be hyperthermia in that case - hard to detect upon autopsy; the toxicology reports were still pending).

I think that's what happened in the Matthew Perry case too. Families want to bury their loved ones and hold funerals in a manner most suitable to their own grieving - the DC doesn't have to have everything filled out on its first pass through the system.

It can be filed per the statute, but not "registered" as complete, IOW. Clause 7 is impossible to perform completely in 72 hours - and I think that too means that by saying "Unknown" in the CoD column (and MoD too), the requirement is fulfilled - but the certificate can be changed (and probably will be). It would true, as far as is known to put "unknown" rather than either natural or unnatural CoD. I believe "natural" means "of a disease process within the person's own body," and would not include hypothermia. Even if all three ultimately died because their hearts stopped or their breathing was too shallow - that's not a "natural" death for three young men.

But determining the cause could easily take 4-6 weeks (toxicology rarely gets done faster than that and in many cases absolutely has to be done in steps, finding evidence and determining which further tests to make). Even if they could get BAL's within 72 hours, they have to rule out other toxins for sure.

IMO.

Thank you for clarifying.

It's so sad, the families have no idea.
Moo

 

[Forest_Wood]

True, I only concerned with the initial findings. The families claim they have no idea, which is so sad. Moo

Thank you for clarifying.

It's so sad, the families have no idea.
Moo

In my opinion, the fact that everyone - including the family members apparently - is waiting for the toxicology results indicates the deaths are related to some sort of poison or toxin, in which alcohol is included. Alcohol. Drugs. Poison. What else might be included in that?

 

[SMK777]

In my opinion, the fact that everyone - including the family members apparently - is waiting for the toxicology results indicates the deaths are related to some sort of poison or toxin, in which alcohol is included. Alcohol. Dugs. Poison. What else might be included in that?

And that includes drugs unknowingly laced with fentanyl.

 

[MyBelle]

In several cases I've followed, the death certificate had "pending" in the column for MoD and CoD (and sometimes for other things - such as whether autopsy was completed). I think it's pretty common to go ahead and issue the death certificate provisionally (eventually it has to go all the way to the CDC and other federal agencies, is my understanding). In the case of missing person Jin Fang (there's a thread here), the DC was filed with a pending CoD (seems to be hyperthermia in that case - hard to detect upon autopsy; the toxicology reports were still pending).

I think that's what happened in the Matthew Perry case too. Families want to bury their loved ones and hold funerals in a manner most suitable to their own grieving - the DC doesn't have to have everything filled out on its first pass through the system.

It can be filed per the statute, but not "registered" as complete, IOW. Clause 7 is impossible to perform completely in 72 hours - and I think that too means that by saying "Unknown" in the CoD column (and MoD too), the requirement is fulfilled - but the certificate can be changed (and probably will be). It would true, as far as is known to put "unknown" rather than either natural or unnatural CoD. I believe "natural" means "of a disease process within the person's own body," and would not include hypothermia. Even if all three ultimately died because their hearts stopped or their breathing was too shallow - that's not a "natural" death for three young men.

But determining the cause could easily take 4-6 weeks (toxicology rarely gets done faster than that and in many cases absolutely has to be done in steps, finding evidence and determining which further tests to make). Even if they could get BAL's within 72 hours, they have to rule out other toxins for sure.

IMO.

I agree. I think in Missouri instead of "pending" it will say "undetermined" and then amended if needed.

JMO

 

[SMK777]

“Something" at the scene lead this investigation to 100% exclude homicide.

True, but we don’t really know if they’ve ever ruled out homicide at all. Just because they state that to press and public doesn’t make it true. Law enforcement are allowed to lie and do so quite frequently—if they believe it will protect the integrity of an investigation.

Remember in the Idaho college slaying case, when they were searching for the white Elantra vehicle, and the Police Chief said, “We basically have no idea right now where it could be.” as they were closing in on it and soon to make an arrest?

That is one small example among many.

 

[Curious Me]

The funerals were held last weekend. One on Friday, one on Saturday and one on Sunday.

I've been wanting to ask what I hope nobody thinks are stupid questions about the funerals. Did they actually bury or cremate them already then? I guess the bodies thawed and all the testing was done, and then the remains were released to the families without any CoD conclusion yet? IMO, not having answers yet, and holding a funeral would be somehow harder on the loved ones.

Acceptance is what they're all struggling to reach, but first they need answers and belief in those answers. I guess they may not be willing to believe in the answers from LE. Is there something to the accusations we're hearing about?

The Five or Seven Stages of Grief -- Shock or Disbelief, Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Guilt *, Depression *, Acceptance and Hope​

 

[monkey222]

True, I do think there would be reminisce, paraphernalia that could quickly be tested. "Something" at the scene lead this investigation to 100% exclude homicide.

I know several of our LE have "drops" and test strips available, and use to test incidents in our schools, quickly. Moo

Moo ...

If there was illegal drug overdose to death, why wouldn't there be a homicide investigation into source?