MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #15

[ATasteOfHoney]

No, it's not a popularity contest. But, let's say that an officer arrest is in a questionable altercation. Let's say it's determined that there is nothing there warranting discipline but the community he's working in continues to have strong feelings about it (not the rioting and looting type strong feelings, but just strong feelings). Instead of letting matter stew, the County would have the opportunity to re-assign them from say West County to South County. They are able to continue to effectively police all areas and yet, at the same time, take some small steps to avoid problems down the road. To me, doesn't seem like a big deal. To me, those determination lie only with the department. Hopefully they have leaders who can recognize where potential issues are and can work to avoid those potential issues while not easing up on their policing activity and not disciplining the officer.

I will admit, my wording wasn't very good in my earlier post but I was trying to go for brevity when I probably should have explained what I was saying.

I understand about the brevity thing, believe me....no problem whatsoever.

I think one criticism with what you're suggesting comes to mind, imo: your suggestion could be a good thing from a community standpoint (particularly if their are either rogue cops or if there's a lot of crime happening). However, it may not be a good thing from the perspective of maintaining law and order and I'll explain why.
For instance, say LE arrests a very popular gang leader. Now the community starts to get mouthy and doesn't like it. Chaos ensues.
To restation the officer over that type of thing is not prudent in the sense that you're making authority into a popularity game. And the loudest mouth wins.
Eventually, all you'll be left with is either LE who are very apathetic, LE who are on the take and are corrupt themselves, or LE who won't make any waves, or no LE left at all.

 

[reedus23]

I understand about the brevity thing, believe me....no problem whatsoever.

I think one criticism with what you're suggesting comes to mind, imo: your suggestion could be a good thing from a community standpoint (particularly if their are either rogue cops or if there's a lot of crime happening). However, it may not be a good thing from the perspective of maintaining law and order and I'll explain why.
For instance, say LE arrests a very popular gang leader. Now the community starts to get mouthy and doesn't like it. Chaos ensues.
To restation the officer over that type of thing is not prudent in the sense that you're making authority into a popularity game. And the loudest mouth wins.
Eventually, all you'll be left with is either LE who are very apathetic, LE who are on the take and are corrupt themselves, or LE who won't make any waves, or no LE left at all.

I hear ya and get what you're saying. You don't want the inmates running the asylum. I simply think there is a way of quietly doing it. I'm not saying there is any formal announcement. People probably wouldn't even notice until months later when they say "Hey. Have you seen Officer X in a while?" I'm absolutely not suggesting that there be any kind of public confirmation or announcement. I dunno. Still might not work. Just rolling thoughts off the top of my head.

 

[tlcya]

Serious question...who gets to decide if something is plead down in juvenile court? I know he isn't suggesting that McCulloch is soft on crime, so it must not be a prosecuting attorney. Seriously though, if his office is involved and a felony is involved and there is strong evidence to support a conviction, especially for a crime like 2nd degree murder, it is not going to be plead down so far that the guy doesn't have a felony conviction. Either there weren't charges or there wasn't enough evidence to support the charges, in which case I'd suggest MB is not guilty of any such charges.

Shoplifting charge? Ok
Simple assault? Maybe
2nd degree murder? Just don't see it.

But anything is possible. All just MOO.

I haven't a clue, never having been involved with juvenile justice system. Maybe one of our verified legal eagles will chime in but to me the point is moot.

Like I said earlier this evening, unless there was something in that record that he had seriously assaulted another authority figure I do not know how much weight I would give it anyway or how relevant I would find it. It really would take a certain type of violent crime to make me think it was at all relevant to this case.

Therefore I am okay with record not being released. If it contains info about something that was never charged and just and accusation that never went anywhere its none of my business and also not relevant IMO.

 

[popsicle]

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pd_shutterspeed ‏@pd_shutterspeed 19m
Determined youths, @lostvoices14, still keeping the #Ferguson protests alive on W. Florissant on Wednesday night.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bwp4XzgCEAAV9Xt.jpg

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[momrids6]

I did a search and found the following info:

Cynthia Harcourt, a lawyer for St. Louis County Juvenile Officer Kip Seely noted that some juvenile records and proceedings are open to the public: those that concern crimes that would be Class A or B felonies if a juvenile had been charged as an adult. But there were none for Brown.

rsbm/bbm; no mention or disclosure if charged as a juvenile, adjudicated as a juvenile, or as a participant in a diversion program.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

I haven't a clue, never having been involved with juvenile justice system. Maybe one of our verified legal eagles will chime in but to me the point is moot.

Like I said earlier this evening, unless there was something in that record that he had seriously assaulted another authority figure I do not know how much weight I would give it anyway or how relevant I would find it. It really would take a certain type of violent crime to make me think it was at all relevant to this case.

Therefore I am okay with record not being released. If it contains info about something that was never charged and just and accusation that never went anywhere its none of my business and also not relevant IMO.

tlcya, I find great value and enjoyment in all of your posts even when our opinions differ. I can usually understand your point of view but this one is harder for me to grasp and would appreciate hearing why it seems irrelevant to you.
I keep thinking that old adage that "The best predictor of future behavior is … past behavior" has rung true in my experience and would be eager to hear why you don't think it might apply in this instance. TYIA.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

Serious question...who gets to decide if something is plead down in juvenile court? I know he isn't suggesting that McCulloch is soft on crime, so it must not be a prosecuting attorney. Seriously though, if his office is involved and a felony is involved and there is strong evidence to support a conviction, especially for a crime like 2nd degree murder, it is not going to be plead down so far that the guy doesn't have a felony conviction. Either there weren't charges or there wasn't enough evidence to support the charges, in which case I'd suggest MB is not guilty of any such charges.

Shoplifting charge? Ok
Simple assault? Maybe
2nd degree murder? Just don't see it.

But anything is possible. All just MOO.

I don't think McCulloch even has anything to do with the Juvenile Court system, unless there is a decision to charge them as an adult.
Apparently MB not was charged, but that still doesn't tell us if he was a suspect in a crime. If it's true he was just a suspect and is now deceased, then there would never be any charges.

Here is the Family Courts page off to the right side are other links:
http://www.stlouisco.com/LawandPublicSafety/CircuitCourt/FamilyCourt

 

[Oceans]

rsbm/bbm; no mention or disclosure if charged as a juvenile, adjudicated as a juvenile, or as a participant in a diversion program.

Anderson Cooper and his panel discussed this matter. I will post the transcript when it is available.

 

[tlcya]

tlcya, I find great value and enjoyment in all of your posts even when our opinions differ. I can usually understand your point of view but this one is harder for me to grasp and would appreciate hearing why it seems irrelevant to you.
I keep thinking that old adage that "The best predictor of future behavior is … past behavior" has rung true in my experience and would be eager to hear why you don't think it might apply in this instance. TYIA.

For me it is a given that past behavior is a good predictor for possible future behavior. However, the reason juvenile records are sealed is the premise that they are not adults and therefore different than adults. Their records could follow them and the hope of our system as it is set up is that they can be rehabilitated. So unless it was very recent, and involved violent crime against another (and I don't mean strongarm although that is relevant to me because it goes toward his possible attitude that day) and there was evidence to support charges but for other reasons it was lowered, I just feel it is not relevant enough to make a difference in my POV.

 

[reedus23]

rsbm/bbm; no mention or disclosure if charged as a juvenile, adjudicated as a juvenile, or as a participant in a diversion program.

Respectfully, I think you are misreading it. I think that what they are saying is that if the juvenile charges, while not a Class A or B felony because it's charged as a juvenile, would have been a Class A or B felony if that same person with those same fact were an adult, then it would be obtainable.

 

[reedus23]

tlcya, I find great value and enjoyment in all of your posts even when our opinions differ. I can usually understand your point of view but this one is harder for me to grasp and would appreciate hearing why it seems irrelevant to you.
I keep thinking that old adage that "The best predictor of future behavior is … past behavior" has rung true in my experience and would be eager to hear why you don't think it might apply in this instance. TYIA.

I think what you said is exactly what tlcya was saying. Prior charges involving assaulting an authority figure my be a predictor that he would assault DW. But charges one cannot say, for example, that charges of possession of marijuana can be a predictor of an assault on a cop. Seems like a very reasonable way to look at it and can't say I'd have any argument against that.

 

[reedus23]

I don't think McCulloch even has anything to do with the Juvenile Court system, unless there is a decision to charge them as an adult.
Apparently MB not was charged, but that still doesn't tell us if he was a suspect in a crime. If it's true he was just a suspect and is now deceased, then there would never be any charges.

Here is the Family Courts page off to the right side are other links:
http://www.stlouisco.com/LawandPublicSafety/CircuitCourt/FamilyCourt

If he was a suspect, it's meaningless. Lots of people are suspects and are never charged because there is no evidence of guilt. It would be a dangerous world if we started judging people based on things they were simply suspected of doing. That is why even arrest records are not admissible in Court.

Thanks for the link.

 

[momrids6]

I don't think McCulloch even has anything to do with the Juvenile Court system, unless there is a decision to charge them as an adult.

Apparently MB not was charged, but that still doesn't tell us if he was a suspect in a crime. If it's true he was just a suspect and is now deceased, then there would never be any charges.

Here is the Family Courts page off to the right side are other links:
http://www.stlouisco.com/LawandPublicSafety/CircuitCourt/FamilyCourt

Just as long as he was in juvenile court; the law below applies;

No child shall be charged with a crime or convicted unless the
case is transferred to a court of general jurisdiction as provided in
this chapter.

 

[Linda7NJ]

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pd_shutterspeed ‏@pd_shutterspeed 19m
Determined youths, @lostvoices14, still keeping the #Ferguson protests alive on W. Florissant on Wednesday night.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bwp4XzgCEAAV9Xt.jpg

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I think they're young, bored and have nothing better to do, IMO


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[UdbCrzy2]

If he was a suspect, it's meaningless. Lots of people are suspects and are never charged because there is no evidence of guilt. It would be a dangerous world if we started judging people based on things they were simply suspected of doing. That is why even arrest records are not admissible in Court.

Thanks for the link.

That is what I thought the 'rumor' was that he was a suspect in a 2nd degree murder. If that were true and it was just a rumor, then they would have to then have enough evidence to charge him, but that will never happen.

 

[al66pine]

Originally Posted by Muffet I was talking to an LEO about the case over the weekend and asked him about a support Darren Wilson pic I had seen on FB
from the St Louis police hockey team. Said "We are Darren Wilson" on top and their support on the bottom...." BBM SBM

I don't know if that changes a single thing. More than anything, it's about appearances and
showing outward support for the one they are supposed to be investigating is simply wrong.
It calls their bias into question, even if it has been a completely thorough investigation. It calls into question exactly why they are so confident.

BBM


Reedus23
Yes, yes, yes, ITA^^^
Some ppl might say- it's okay, because it's not an official StLCoPD, not the StLCoPros Atty office commenting on the issue.

Sorry, imo,
---doesn't matter if hockey team members are not involved in investigating & providing info for GJ's review.
--- some ppl will see hockey team's supporting DW, as being officially endorsed by top officials of StLCoPD & SLCoPros Atty.

JM2cts.

 

[K_Z]

Here's something to consider.

If MB had lived, he would have been charged with several felonies related to his actions on Aug 9.

If I were on a GJ, or a jury, evaluating those felony charges, I would be very interested in considering this young man's history in the past 36- 39 months-- age 15-18.

MB didn't live to be charged for his offenses of Aug 9. But just imagine if he had lived, and was charged with all of the offenses he committed that day.

This is why I said earlier that I think his juvenile offenses (and now we know there are "some"), are relevant ONLY if OW is indicted or charged with something. If OW is not charged, MB's offenses no longer matter. IMO.

Past behavior is very, very important, IMO. Especially when one side is trying to portray an individual as a "choir boy spreading the word of Jesus Christ", while we peruse multiple video camera angles of said choir boy on the same day, 10 min earlier, committing strong arm robbery, and assault. Sure didn't look to me like "spreading the word of the Lord" in those videos. Lol, maybe someone could more accurately make a Robin Hood analogy-- he was "robbing the rich to give to the poor."

I don't understand why the truth is such a problem, since so many MB "supporters" will discard it anyway. MB was who he was. His record speaks for itself, just as mine and yours does. These incessant, and dishonest efforts to feverishly buff and shine a tarnished image, and try to transform MB into false caricature of who he actually was, only make the racial agenda more and more clear, IMO. There is a consuming, obsessive, NEED driving those with this agenda to make MB into a virtuous choir boy spreading God's word, and OW the devil incarnate. Truth be damned. IMO.

 

[popsicle]

A Rochester Police officer was shot and killed in a shooting Wednesday night.

Read More at: http://www.13wham.com/news/features...urce-rpd-officer-killed-line-duty-15407.shtml

 

[momrids6]

After he graduated Normandy High School in the spring (a struggle, Livingston said, but Brown did it for his mother), Brown was spending his summer trying to figure out what the next step was. Livingston was trying to get him a job working with him at Family Dollar. Brown was also supposed to begin classes the next week at Vatterott College. He wanted to study music and sound engineering.

"He wanted to go there and do the music thing, he also wanted to go to another college because he wanted to play football. His coach at his school in Normandy said that he could do that, get into a college playing football," said Harris, Brown's grandmother.

bbm; a reporter's blog from the Riverfront Times- take it as rumor if you like

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2014/08/mike_brown_shooting_ferguson_family.php

 

[Linda7NJ]

After he graduated Normandy High School in the spring (a struggle, Livingston said, but Brown did it for his mother), Brown was spending his summer trying to figure out what the next step was. Livingston was trying to get him a job working with him at Family Dollar. Brown was also supposed to begin classes the next week at Vatterott College. He wanted to study music and sound engineering.

"He wanted to go there and do the music thing, he also wanted to go to another college because he wanted to play football. His coach at his school in Normandy said that he could do that, get into a college playing football," said Harris, Brown's grandmother.

bbm; a reporter's blog from the Riverfront Times- take it as rumor if you like

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2014/08/mike_brown_shooting_ferguson_family.php

Yawn....what happened to Heating & Air conditioning?

Seriously?

Banker, baker, candlestick maker next?
Maybe a preacher?

Eyeroll...

Nothing wrong with saying he was young and undecided and didn't want up work his first summer after highschool graduation. No shame in that!




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