MO - Lisa Irwin, 10 mos, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011

[RANCH]

the boys were asleep in other rooms, unlike MKS. no comparison imo.

SBM

I don't know who "MKS" is. Lisa's brothers where not asleep all night as far as we know.


The boy's probably where able to tell LE about what happened that night that we are not privileged to know. They could very well have corroborated Deborah's account of part of the evening's activities. JMO.

 

[askfornina]

Christopher Abeyta's case shares many similarities with this case.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/a/abeyta_christopher.html

http://www.kktv.com/home/headlines/Abeyta_Case__125395438.html

Christopher was snatched 25 years ago from his crib just feet away from where his parents were sleeping in Colorado Springs.

"Bernice woke up to take care of him,” Gil Abeyta, Christopher’s father, said. “The crib was only two or three feet away. She looked in the crib and there was nothing there."

The family told police about a woman they think took Christopher. That woman reportedly had an affair with the father.

11 News went to the woman's house Monday. She denied taking the baby, saying the family needs to look elsewhere because she didn't do it.

Police also investigated the family at the time of the disappearance back in 1986.

"We all went through lie detector tests,” Gil Abeyta said.

The child's mother failed two tests, which she blames on prescription medication. She says she wants to know where Christopher is.

 

[RANCH]

I just watched one of the video's that Nina linked up thread. One was where Cindy Short was inspecting Deborah's bedroom the day after the "FBI" cadaver dog gave it's infamous alert.

She (Cindy) made a good point. Why was the carpet intact? Why didn't LE cut out the carpet area around the bed where the dog "hit"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn0wLhgPWps

 

[nova1998]

there is no good reason to withhold any evidence if your child has been kidnapped and you want to find her. none!

and imo, it's a case of jumping the shark to postulate that this house was broken into twice that night... the only night JI worked a late night shift and DB claims to have blacked out drunk. way too convoluted for my thinking. jmo.

Hi Redheadgal. I actually wasn't suggesting that the house may have been broken into twice that night. I was suggesting that it could have been one of the guests or friends who had come to the home earlier that evening, one of the presumed visitors who had dropped by for a drink or chat or whatnot, who may have swiped them on the spur of the moment to sell, to have for him/herself, or for another reason, such as doing it out of spite. They may have not known that the phones were apparently not working.

Perhaps there is other dishonesty about how they went missing.....perhaps they were sold or exchanged for some drugs that evening. In this case, the supplier goes back home and thinking the phones work, calls a number at 11:57 PM to a different address to see if anyone needs anything, so to speak. Just a couple of different scenarios out of quite a few possibilities.

 

[nova1998]

Nova1998- if you get a chance, read askfornina #231 and 233. It is just 1 page back. There is a great map on that too and it shows where the perp and baby were seen. I can see the area you are talking about. Her other post is background info on Tanko aka Jersey.

Thanks for that Razz. I have read a lot about JT and I know many others have cast suspicion on him. However, he would likely have left too many loose ends, too many things behind. He's someone who appears to be very rash and is often caught for what he does. I do not think he would even be trusted for this kind of work.

 

[melissasmom]

I still think there has to be a connection to Jersey somehow, even though it may be peripheral. SOMEONE used that phone to call Megan Wright's number. She dated Jersey at one time. MW said she lent her phone to people all the time. It is someone she knows, a friend of a friend, etc.

ETA: I wonder how long she had that particular phone #? How many of her friends/associates did LE interview?

 

[Razz]

I really don't see someone coming through the front window. The back entrance makes the most sense. Entering and exiting.

There are several people where there remains a huge question mark: Jersey Tanko, Mr. Brando ( who stated he stayed with a friend that evening), Megan Wright who was out until 6:00 that morning (where exactly does she live?), the Greathouse boys, Dane, Josua and Zach.

After reading Webslueths Q & A with Jim Spellman, I feel as I always have: men rarely ask enough questions or the right ones.

What was the Craig's List Ad all about?

A new map needs to be .........remapped. It needs to show everything and times. Ie: Brando's home. Entrance and exit to home, pickup of the phones, the " phone call", where the man with the baby was seen, by who with descriptions of man and baby, where they appeared to be headed; where the man seen walking was, fire in the dumpster, location and description where Thompson saw man and baby, places Brando had been that evening, places where Megan Wright had been all that night, where she resides, location of the Greathouse boys, specifically Dane, ( and zach who was at his parent's home when Spellman interv iewed him and heard the baby cry)location of where the PD. searched, days and times, inc luding the 2 abandonded homes and locations, Highways located near where the baby with the diaper was allegedly sighted at 4am.Anything else?

 

[Cortne]

Holy chit batman!!

Does anyone remember this and if it was solved?

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/47502...baby-lisa-debit-card-fraud-clue/#.T7pJ-dyPmAg

 

[askfornina]

I still think there has to be a connection to Jersey somehow, even though it may be peripheral. SOMEONE used that phone to call Megan Wright's number. She dated Jersey at one time. MW said she lent her phone to people all the time. It is someone she knows, a friend of a friend, etc.

ETA: I wonder how long she had that particular phone #? How many of her friends/associates did LE interview?

I agree.

Megan said she had the phone number for three or four months. Before that, she didn't have a phone for 8 months. I would hope police have checked out as many of her associates as possible, and every number that appeared on her phone records.

 

[Razz]

Sorry. His name is Dane Diggler. He was the one who supposedly had MW"s phone that night.

 

[redheadedgal]

I don't know who "MKS" is. Lisa's brothers where not asleep all night as far as we know. The boy's probably where able to tell LE about what happened that night that we are not privileged to know. They could very well have corroborated Deborah's account of part of the evening's activities. JMO.

who MKS is was referred to in the thread. and again, my words regarding the boys were misread.

I just watched one of the video's that Nina linked up thread. One was where Cindy Short was inspecting Deborah's bedroom the day after the "FBI" cadaver dog gave it's infamous alert. She (Cindy) made a good point. Why was the carpet intact? Why didn't LE cut out the carpet area around the bed where the dog "hit"?

that nonsensical remark was discussed @ http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?152518-Cadaver-dog-hit-on-scent-in-DBs-bedroom

just reading the first page of posts gives plenty of insight as to "why".

Hi Redheadgal. I actually wasn't suggesting that the house may have been broken into twice that night. I was suggesting that it could have been one of the guests or friends who had come to the home earlier that evening, one of the presumed visitors who had dropped by for a drink or chat or whatnot, who may have swiped them on the spur of the moment to sell, to have for him/herself, or for another reason, such as doing it out of spite. They may have not known that the phones were apparently not working.

Perhaps there is other dishonesty about how they went missing.....perhaps they were sold or exchanged for some drugs that evening. In this case, the supplier goes back home and thinking the phones work, calls a number at 11:57 PM to a different address to see if anyone needs anything, so to speak. Just a couple of different scenarios out of quite a few possibilities.

imo, it's still a case of jumping the shark to postulate that allll these things happened in one evening/overnight @ this one house. i will never understand why it's so easy to come up with such elaborate / detailed scenarios as opposed to the most realistic one that is supported by plenty of circumstantial evidence and decades of statistics.

re: "circumstantial": http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/20/deborah-bradley-baby-lisa-irwin-missing_n_1022905.html

 

[Razz]

Thanks for that Razz. I have read a lot about JT and I know many others have cast suspicion on him. However, he would likely have left too many loose ends, too many things behind. He's someone who appears to be very rash and is often caught for what he does. I do not think he would even be trusted for this kind of work.

Well, I can't say taking the phones on the way out and then trying to use them later was very smart.

 

[melissasmom]

imo, it's still a case of jumping the shark to postulate that allll these things happened in one evening/overnight @ this one house. i will never understand why it's so easy to come up with such elaborate / detailed scenarios as opposed to the most realistic one that is supported by plenty of circumstantial evidence and decades of statistics.

re: "circumstantial": http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/20/deborah-bradley-baby-lisa-irwin-missing_n_1022905.html

I disagree. I feel that this case does not fit into the "box" of all the other missing children/babies like similar cases on here. You have to admit, in the large majority of the missing cases we see on here, there is almost universal agreement that the parents killed the child (on purpose or accidentally)and disposed of the remains. We have all seen this time and time again and there isn't a whole lot of disagreement on who the culprits are. You don't see that with Lisa's case. There are many people who don't think this is as "simple" as the parent(s) harmed her and then hid her. Why is this? I say it is because there is something different about this case, and it doesn't fit the usual pattern (if you want to call it that).

ETA: Just wanted to add that I am not saying the parent(s) could not have harmed Lisa or hidden her body. That might be what happened. I just think with this case there could be other possibilities.

 

[Razz]

Maybe we're focusing on the wrong person. Who took DB's phones and knew MW's # by heart? Maybe it's not Tanko but someone who runs with that crowd.

And if it was Debra and she did accidently or knowingly hurt Lisa, where did she hide the body so no one, especially the dogs be able to find her?

 

[redheadedgal]

I disagree. I feel that this case does not fit into the "box" of all the other missing children/babies like similar cases on here. You have to admit, in the large majority of the missing cases we see on here, there is almost universal agreement that the parents killed the child (on purpose or accidentally)and disposed of the remains. We have all seen this time and time again and there isn't a whole lot of disagreement on who the culprits are. You don't see that with Lisa's case. There are many people who don't think this is as "simple" as the parent(s) harmed her and then hid her. Why is this? I say it is because there is something different about this case, and it doesn't fit the usual pattern (if you want to call it that).

hi mm.

1) there is plenty of disagreement in other forums, madeleine mccann for one
2) 66% feel a parent did it in this case http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?152914-what-are-your-thoughts-now-*re-re-poll*
3) a shifting timeline, a parent not cooperating / being completely truthful with police from the on-set, a cadaver dog hit, etc. aren't a usual pattern?
4) ron rugen, a PI and member of WS, reported that NOT ONE media person he has asked --local or national-- believes lisa is alive (read between the lines if needed): http://www.kc-pi.com/2013/10/baby-lisa-irwin-two-years-later/

And if it was Debra and she did accidently or knowingly hurt Lisa, where did she hide the body so no one, especially the dogs be able to find her?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_River

 

[melissasmom]

Hey redheadedgal! I still disagree. But you knew I would .

My responses to these statements in red.


1) there is plenty of disagreement in other forums, madeleine mccann for one

There is always the "odd" case: Madeleine, JonBenet(though that was a murder, slightly different) where you have some serious disagreements. But look at so many here at WS, just off the top of my head: Aaliyah Lunsford, Myra Lewis, Sky Metalwala, Delano Wilson, Daphne Webb..I would have to say that for the most part we agree that the parents are culpable in those cases. Maybe not 100%, but rarely do you see someone comment that they think we are looking in the wrong direction there.

2) 66% feel a parent did it in this case http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?152914-what-are-your-thoughts-now-*re-re-poll*

I came up with 63% when I added But that still means 37% have doubts. I realize 37% is not a majority, but that is still a third, which is a pretty good portion.


3) a shifting timeline, a parent not cooperating / being completely truthful with police from the on-set, a cadaver dog hit, etc. aren't a usual pattern?

I agree those are part of a pattern (sad that there is a pattern ). But there are also those outliers that are bothersome. No history of abuse, CPS involvement, criminal records, etc. The phone call to MW. The sightings of a man with a baby, etc to name a few.


4) ron rugen, a PI and member of WS, reported that NOT ONE media person he has asked --local or national-- believes lisa is alive (read between the lines if needed): http://www.kc-pi.com/2013/10/baby-lisa-irwin-two-years-later/


Ron Rugen? Ugh. I have seen how that man rolls. I disregard Ron Rugen.

 

[askfornina]

I disagree. I feel that this case does not fit into the "box" of all the other missing children/babies like similar cases on here. You have to admit, in the large majority of the missing cases we see on here, there is almost universal agreement that the parents killed the child (on purpose or accidentally)and disposed of the remains. We have all seen this time and time again and there isn't a whole lot of disagreement on who the culprits are. You don't see that with Lisa's case. There are many people who don't think this is as "simple" as the parent(s) harmed her and then hid her. Why is this? I say it is because there is something different about this case, and it doesn't fit the usual pattern (if you want to call it that).

ETA: Just wanted to add that I am not saying the parent(s) could not have harmed Lisa or hidden her body. That might be what happened. I just think with this case there could be other possibilities.

I absolutely agree. I don't think this case fits the mold.

When I post about this case, I'm not trying to convince people that Deborah is innocent. I'M not convinced that she's innocent. I've read about this case from top to bottom, back to front- I think the information we are aware of does not eliminate an intruder as a possibility. I would need MUCH more information to be totally convinced either way. I understand why folks believe Deborah could be guilty. I just honestly don't understand how someone could be 100% convinced of her guilt- or her innocence, for that matter. The fact that a man was seen with a baby walking toward the house Jersey was working at, and Jersey's ex girlfriend's number was dialed...it's too much for me to dismiss.

1) there is plenty of disagreement in other forums, madeleine mccann for one

There is always the "odd" case: Madeleine, JonBenet(though that was a murder, slightly different) where you have some serious disagreements. But look at so many here at WS, just off the top of my head: Aaliyah Lunsford, Myra Lewis, Sky Metalwala, Delano Wilson, Daphne Webb..I would have to say that for the most part we agree that the parents are culpable in those cases. Maybe not 100%, but rarely do you see someone comment that they think we are looking in the wrong direction there.

I agree. Most of the time, I think one or both parents are responsible. Sky Metalwala and Ayla Reynolds also went missing in late 2011. In both of those cases, I think a parent is very likely responsible.

As of at least the third anniversary, the lines of communication between police and Lisa's parents are open. Deborah and Jeremy do not seem like they are hoping for everyone to forget about Lisa IMO. I've already listed the things they have done to help find Lisa earlier in the thread. I want to also mention that they have support from other families of the missing in and out of the Missouri area. In 2013 they attended a healing retreat for families of the missing. They have attended numerous events for other missing people. Many people involved in the missing community (families, advocates, organizations) have voiced their support for Lisa's parents on social media. The Abeyta family is one example. A NAMUS advocate spoke at the two year anniversary vigil. Are these things common among cases where the parents are believed to be responsible? Have those accused parents continued to do media interviews (both local and national) years later?

November 3rd 2012:

http://www.kctv5.com/story/19995240/family-still-holds-out-hope

Friends and family of a missing Lathrop woman are holding out hope that she will be found alive.

A vigil was held Saturday at the Lathrop City Park in Carol Jo Thompson's honor.

The occasion was a birthday, but the message was hope. A hope that has been strained in the nearly three months since Thompson went missing.
~~
On the Missouri Highway Patrol's website for emergency missing alerts, there are four active alerts and two of them are local.

One is baby Lisa Irwin and the other is Thompson.

A box held prayers left by those attending, about 40 altogether, including the mother of baby Lisa, Debbie Bradley, who read a poem she had written for Thompson and Thompson's steadfast sister who comforted Bradley as she took comfort herself from those in attendance.

"Everybody that has been supporting me through all of this, through Facebook, through phone calls. I wanted to meet them in honor of Carol," Courtney said.

May 6th 2013:

video@link

http://www.kmbc.com/news/Missing-ba...ring-for-missing-woman/20028512?utm_campaign=

Jeremy Irwin and Deborah Bradley, the parents of missing baby Lisa Irwin, attended a gathering for missing Belton woman Kara Kopetsky on Sunday.

October 5th 2013:

http://www.kansascity.com/2013/10/05/4532615/familys-supporters-hold-vigil.html

“When she comes home,” said Bradley, referring to her daughter, “it’s going to mean a lot to her to see so many people” cared for her.

Bradley urged the public to use social media and other tools to draw attention to missing persons.

Lisa’s parents have repeatedly said they had nothing to do with their daughter’s disappearance. Maureen Reintjes, a Kansas advocate with the National Missing and Unidentified Persons System, told the vigil crowd that “hateful talk” in the community often surrounds missing-person cases. Sympathetic supporters, she said, outnumber “every hater out there.”

4) ron rugen, a PI and member of WS, reported that NOT ONE media person he has asked --local or national-- believes lisa is alive (read between the lines if needed): http://www.kc-pi.com/2013/10/baby-lisa-irwin-two-years-later/


Ron Rugen? Ugh. I have seen how that man rolls. I disregard Ron Rugen.

Megyn Kelly recently said she doesn't know what happened to Lisa, but she thinks there is "a better than fighting chance that that child was taken out of her crib as she slept."

Here's what Jim Spellman said when asked about his opinion on what happened and if he believes Lisa is alive:

If I had an opinion I wouldn't share it but I can honestly say that I just don't know. Sorry I don't have a better answer LOL.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ISCUSSION-HERE-PLEASE**&p=7543946#post7543946

 

[Razz]

<mod snip> please explain how an overweight, slightly/very drunk woman can run down to the river carrying a chunky but dead baby, (whether the baby is 5 or 20 pounds) throw her down the embankment and then run back home all before her boys know she's missing! Oh, and all this in the dark. And no witnesses! And before her husband returns home from work. If put out for a vote on this probability, it would probably come back at......1%! Unless she is super athlete extrodinaire.
In which case it might bump it up to 5%. :-0,

 

[melissasmom]

<modsnip> And please explain how an overweight, slightly/very drunk woman can run down to the river carrying a chunky but dead baby, (whether the baby is 5 or 20 pounds) throw her down the embankment and then run back home all before her boys know she's missing! Oh, and all this in the dark. And no witnesses! And before her husband returns home from work. If put out for a vote on this probability, it would probably come back at......1%! Unless she is super athlete extrodinaire.
In which case it might bump it up to 5%. :-0,

This is another topic that we did indeed go round and round about back in 2011. Our verified local explained how there were steep embankments down to the river, she would have had to go to the nearest bridge to be able to get down to the waters edge. The response to this was normally "well, she probably wasn't as drunk as she claimed" or something of that nature. Which doesn't make sense, was she so drunk that she forgot to check on Lisa, accidentally harmed her, rolled on her, dropped her, overdosed her, etc, etc, etc, or was she NOT drunk and the whole drinking thing was made up and Lisa was killed for some reason other than negligence? If you get my point? I am not great at explaining things sometimes.

I am with askfornina also, I just don't see how anyone can be so adamant when you look at the facts. If it turns out her parents did somehow harm her and covered it up, I will not be shocked, or say "Wow, I can't believe it!" I am just really really not sure, too many other things in play with this case.

 

[RANCH]

<modsnip> And please explain how an overweight, slightly/very drunk woman can run down to the river carrying a chunky but dead baby, (whether the baby is 5 or 20 pounds) throw her down the embankment and then run back home all before her boys know she's missing! Oh, and all this in the dark. And no witnesses! And before her husband returns home from work. If put out for a vote on this probability, it would probably come back at......1%! Unless she is super athlete extrodinaire.
In which case it might bump it up to 5%. :-0,

One answer I've read in the past on how Deborah disposed of Lisa's dead body was she somehow contacted a friend or family member (without having a working phone) and they put her corpse into a sealed container so the HRD dogs wouldn't alert to the decomp scent in whatever car was used. They then dropped this airtight container into the Missouri river where it sank (?) and was never found.

To make this work you have to believe that a drunk Deborah thought up this plan to hide evidence and convinced someone to help get rid of the body. The container holding the body had to be totally sealed but at the same time not float on the surface where it could easily recovered.

This theory doesn't work for me. JMO.