Motion In Limine To Exclude Mental Health Experts

[SoCalSleuth]

Exactly. And then to have psychiatrists basically give "expert" opinions as to why she did what she did, without there being any evidentiary evidence whatsoever, in other words, based on a "hypothetical".....That is exactly what JB is trying to do and the reason DS said in court when they tried to bring in these last minute "hail Mary" so called expert witnesses that they would have to "litigate" the matter. YOU BET THEY WILL.

To Katydid as well: Jesse and other of her friends all gave LE statements that she claimed LE and GA sexually abused her. She also raised the claim in her jailhouse letters. Any sort of sexual abuse, if believed, would be pretty significant. I don't see the claims as being mild at all for that reason. If it was about these claims of hers then JA could have asked that the details of the "event" not be disclosed--and perhaps that is what he did-hard to tell from the motion. But another reason I do not believe it involved these sex abuse claims is that the DT in their motion for a "hypothetical" expert clearly stated that hypotheticals would involve matters already introduced into evidence. I don't believe KC is going to testify. That means someone else would have to profer first hand knowledge (they saw it or they heard it) in support of these sex abuse claims. LE and GA have already denied these claims. So who would be the individual to offer the first hand personal knowledge that the claimed sex abuse occurred?

 

[Macushla]

I think it is very interesting that it is Danziger, the doctor who evaluated KC way, way back in the beginning who is being dropped as a witness. When he was deposed by the State, the defense was there, correct? It is obvious that he made some statements in his deposition that the defense was not happy with at all! I wonder what questions JA and LDB asked the doctor that sent the defense into panic mode - again! Why did Dr. Danziger not even finish his deposition? I think the hearing tomorrow is going to be quite entertaining!

 

[Snaz]

I've said it before and I will say it again.

If the defense is planning to throw George or Cindy or both under the bus, the very State prosecutors that they have maligned for several years now may just end up being their best friends.

 

[faefrost]

To Katydid as well: Jesse and other of her friends all gave LE statements that she claimed LE and GA sexually abused her. She also raised the claim in her jailhouse letters. Any sort of sexual abuse, if believed, would be pretty significant. I don't see the claims as being mild at all for that reason. If it was about these claims of hers then JA could have asked that the details of the "event" not be disclosed--and perhaps that is what he did-hard to tell from the motion. But another reason I do not believe it involved these sex abuse claims is that the DT in their motion for a "hypothetical" expert clearly stated that hypotheticals would involve matters already introduced into evidence. I don't believe KC is going to testify. That means someone else would have to profer first hand knowledge (they saw it or they heard it) in support of these sex abuse claims. LE and GA have already denied these claims. So who would be the individual to offer the first hand personal knowledge that the claimed sex abuse occurred?

/e in best JB voice "So Dr. Quack, based on the claims entered into evidence in the jailhouse letters, what would your evaluation be if my client were in fact telling the truth about the sexual abuse of her father? What would the hypothetical behavior of someone who had suffered in such a way be?"

Oh yeah they can attempt to spin this one. And it is powerful and unbelievably prejudicial. Just look at how many people around here still debate and discuss whether KC was abused and whether George or Lee is Caylee's father. Even though every one of us posting here absolutely positively knows that KC is a serial pathological liar. Everyone here knows that the only source of these stories of abuse comes from KC's lips. And everyone here knows for a 100% fact that no male relative of KC's was Caylee's biological father. proven by DNA. Still the stories continue to generate discussion here. Still people churn it over in their minds and try and put together scenarios in which George or Lee are these heinous abusive molestors. All on the hearsay of the twisted and evil queen of liars. And the people here are a well informed audience who honestly should know better. Once it gets to a jury from the general populace. Just the hint of a suspicion of a rumor of family sexual abuse as a child is enough to pull out the victim card and get at least 1 stupid juror to hold out for murder 2 or take the DP off the table.

This is why the SA wants nothing on this subject to come in, until or unless it comes directly from KC's mouth, under oath, and subject to cross examination.

 

[katydid23]

Here ya go, of particular interest here is at page 337.

http://www.film-en-psychiatrie.nl/downloads/jaapl_2005_33_3.pdf

I couldnt see pg 337. Only 346--349.?

 

[logicalgirl]

MM- you are the most incredible absolute websleuther ever!! Thank you so much for getting this doc!!

What the heck? Now, after having attempted to add Dr. D late to the witness list, they take him off before his depo is completed? Me thinks the DT is absolutely scrambling to put together a defense right before trial & have no clue what they're going to do or how they're going to do it.

I don't think that the event that occurred a long time ago is the alleged sexual abuse because those claims are already in the public domain via her friend's statements to LE and via her jailhouse letters. Both LA and GA denied it occurred through their lawyers on more than one occasion. So it doesn't appear to me that's something that the SA would believe if revealed publicly would taint a jury-since it's already been revealed publicly. Although I do think it involves some sort of alleged sexual crime committed against KC as the DT mentioned their request for an expert to testify hypothetically re the "psychological defense mechanisms" that would explain away consciousness of guilt. So what are some pyschological defense mechanisms? Denial? Diassociation? Repression? Fantasy? Reaction Formation? Distortion? My guess that it's whichever one is associated with habitual lying.

Tony Pepitone claims today he has an exclusive piece of evidence that he is going to reveal tonight, I believe. Do you want to take bets that it's whatever the SA doesn't want revealed?

Okay still scratching head because hasn't LDB just filed to say she wants them unsealed to she can show them to "select third parties" to get some sort of rebuttal to the DT experts musing?

I keep reading this and think we are all going at cross purposes with this.

The State seems to be saying
"Don't let this evidence in for this hearing for this reason. And...
"Don't let this evidence unless we can equally have our own experts to question ICA. And....
Don't let this evidence in before our own experts review these depos, comment on them, and question.
Don't let this evidence in and by the way Dr. Danzinger has withdrawn.
Don't let this evidence in until you unseal the evidence so we can show it to third parties who are our experts and get their comments.
And finally don't allow this evidence in until we have had the opportunity to discuss and argue the various case law which disallows it.

Or at least that's how I am reading what is going on here. Or?:waitasec:
To me this is the SA keeping one step ahead of the DT in a Baez moment of "Curses - foiled again! And Again!"

All IMO of course.

 

[faefrost]

I think it is very interesting that it is Danziger, the doctor who evaluated KC way, way back in the beginning who is being dropped as a witness. When he was deposed by the State, the defense was there, correct? It is obvious that he made some statements in his deposition that the defense was not happy with at all! I wonder what questions JA and LDB asked the doctor that sent the defense into panic mode - again! Why did Dr. Danziger not even finish his deposition? I think the hearing tomorrow is going to be quite entertaining!

Danziger is a professional expert witness. His services are his to offer and his to withdraw (especially since he has not yet been approved by the court). Since he no showed for the second day of depositions, it is quite possible that he opted to withdraw his services. he may actually be a professional, and not wish to be used as a mouthpiece for the defendants lies.

 

[SoCalSleuth]

I couldnt see pg 337. Only 346--349.?

So sorry, page 347-right hand column

 

[logicalgirl]

/e in best JB voice "So Dr. Quack, based on the claims entered into evidence in the jailhouse letters, what would your evaluation be if my client were in fact telling the truth about the sexual abuse of her father? What would the hypothetical behavior of someone who had suffered in such a way be?"

Oh yeah they can attempt to spin this one. And it is powerful and unbelievably prejudicial. Just look at how many people around here still debate and discuss whether KC was abused and whether George or Lee is Caylee's father. Even though every one of us posting here absolutely positively knows that KC is a serial pathological liar. Everyone here knows that the only source of these stories of abuse comes from KC's lips. And everyone here knows for a 100% fact that no male relative of KC's was Caylee's biological father. proven by DNA. Still the stories continue to generate discussion here. Still people churn it over in their minds and try and put together scenarios in which George or Lee are these heinous abusive molestors. All on the hearsay of the twisted and evil queen of liars. And the people here are a well informed audience who honestly should know better. Once it gets to a jury from the general populace. Just the hint of a suspicion of a rumor of family sexual abuse as a child is enough to pull out the victim card and get at least 1 stupid juror to hold out for murder 2 or take the DP off the table.

This is why the SA wants nothing on this subject to come in, until or unless it comes directly from KC's mouth, under oath, and subject to cross examination.

Well said Faefrost - you've just outlined one of my biggest frustrations with this case. One mistruth or lie continues to roll along until it becomes an absolute rock hard solid fact. Trace it back to it's origin....:banghead:

 

[katydid23]

/e in best JB voice "So Dr. Quack, based on the claims entered into evidence in the jailhouse letters, what would your evaluation be if my client were in fact telling the truth about the sexual abuse of her father? What would the hypothetical behavior of someone who had suffered in such a way be?"

Oh yeah they can attempt to spin this one. And it is powerful and unbelievably prejudicial. Just look at how many people around here still debate and discuss whether KC was abused and whether George or Lee is Caylee's father. Even though every one of us posting here absolutely positively knows that KC is a serial pathological liar. Everyone here knows that the only source of these stories of abuse comes from KC's lips. And everyone here knows for a 100% fact that no male relative of KC's was Caylee's biological father. proven by DNA. Still the stories continue to generate discussion here. Still people churn it over in their minds and try and put together scenarios in which George or Lee are these heinous abusive molestors. All on the hearsay of the twisted and evil queen of liars. And the people here are a well informed audience who honestly should know better. Once it gets to a jury from the general populace. Just the hint of a suspicion of a rumor of family sexual abuse as a child is enough to pull out the victim card and get at least 1 stupid juror to hold out for murder 2 or take the DP off the table.

This is why the SA wants nothing on this subject to come in, until or unless it comes directly from KC's mouth, under oath, and subject to cross examination.

bbm

I totally agree here. A jury will be looking for answers, why or how could this happen. A juror does NOT want to sentence a pretty young woman to death. They want to know what happened to make this tragedy come about. It would be much easier to see George and Lee as the evil ones, the ones who are really to blame. I hope that does not happen.

 

[SoCalSleuth]

[/B]

Okay still scratching head because hasn't LDB just filed to say she wants them unsealed to she can show them to "select third parties" to get some sort of rebuttal to the DT experts musing?

I keep reading this and think we are all going at cross purposes with this.

The State seems to be saying
"Don't let this evidence in for this hearing for this reason. And...
"Don't let this evidence unless we can equally have our own experts to question ICA. And....
Don't let this evidence in before our own experts review these depos, comment on them, and question.
Don't let this evidence in and by the way Dr. Danzinger has withdrawn.
Don't let this evidence in until you unseal the evidence so we can show it to third parties who are our experts and get their comments.
And finally don't allow this evidence in until we have had the opportunity to discuss and argue the various case law which disallows it.

Or at least that's how I am reading what is going on here. Or?:waitasec:
To me this is the SA keeping one step ahead of the DT in a Baez moment of "Curses - foiled again! And Again!"

All IMO of course.

My guess is that she is referring to their own experts as third parties. I think you are absolutely right that the SA office is trying to stay one step ahead of the DT and so far they are succeeding! That said, it's hard when you have a corrupt 48 hours episode and former DT attorney on national television, making national news, in order to taint the jury pool.

 

[logicalgirl]

I think it is very interesting that it is Danziger, the doctor who evaluated KC way, way back in the beginning who is being dropped as a witness. When he was deposed by the State, the defense was there, correct? It is obvious that he made some statements in his deposition that the defense was not happy with at all! I wonder what questions JA and LDB asked the doctor that sent the defense into panic mode - again! Why did Dr. Danziger not even finish his deposition? I think the hearing tomorrow is going to be quite entertaining!

I believe Dr. Danziger "dropped himself". As to why he bowed out - well....you've see pit bull #1 - aka Linda Drane Burdick and pit bull #2 - aka Jeff Ashton in action with a witness on the stand....yes?:rocker:

 

[logicalgirl]

My guess is that she is referring to their own experts as third parties. I think you are absolutely right that the SA office is trying to stay one step ahead of the DT and so far they are succeeding! That said, it's hard when you have a corrupt 48 hours episode and former DT attorney on national television, making national news, in order to taint the jury pool.

Yes, yes, I understand the same thing - she is asking for partial unsealing of the depos/letters (is it both?) to selected third party experts of their choosing. I believe she said something like that in her latest motion.

Yes, I have a feeling Tony Piptone is going to come out with something to add to the comments LBaden made recently re ICA lying. There is a comment on one of the Today's News Articles within that article about "of course ICA lies" that implied we are going to get a "Lies because...." from Tony tonight.

However it the "new evidence" can be sourced back to the shrink on the show, and it is legitimate, I think we will see somebody lose some "real fur" tomorrow. And methinks it is not going to be LDB or JA.....:laugh:

 

[AbbieNormal]

Hold on to your hats, another motion has been filed. WFTV just did a story on the 5 pm news about a new motion, filed today by the defense. Basically it says that if the judge decided to let the State examine KC, the defense is going to withdraw their doctor's reports. so rather than let someone from the state examine KC, the defense has decided they don't want their doctors testifying in the guilt phase of the trial.:banghead::banghead:

So then, apparently the DT has weighed the situation and has decided that whatever 'revelations' the experts came up with that they want to testify to about Caseys mental health, (whether gathered by listening to her statements she made to LE, etc OR by actually interviewing her and using standardized accepted psych evaluation, and getting their opinions from that) will go out the window if it means Casey has to testify first.

No way do they want her testifying. Shes a wild card and they know she will destroy herself if given the chance to open her mouth. Better they just skip whatever their "experts" have uncovered re: Caseys twisted mind. Makes me think whatever their experts came up with is probably not gonna fly, and DT knows it. Either way, its just more crookedness by the DT, which we have come to expect from them anyway.

We might all need a check up from the neck up before this trial is over.

ETA: If Baez is thinking that any type of mental eval, whether done by actual interviews or by drawing their conclusions from what they have read about Casey or seen in the media, is going to ultimately EXCUSE what she did to Caylee, then Baez is basicly admitting shes guilty. "But your honor she was abused by (insert name here) as a child and that's why she harmed (read:killed) her own child...to protect her from the evil abuser (s). Not gonna fly, IF she really was abused (which I don't believe) and was scared for Caylees safety she could have just moved out. I can think of NO EXCUSE that would fly to a jury excusing ICA's actions. Especially if mental health experts cannot come up with something concrete like diminished capacity or insanity. Even under these two diagnosis she would still have to pay for her crime. Just maybe not get death penalty if her diagnosis was something like that. People with low IQ's aren't excused from their crime just because they are profoundly dense. So why would she be? They aren't just gonna let her go cos she had some mental defect, does Jose know that? I doubt it. Her best bet would be to let the chips fall where they may, after the trial get another atty and claim Baez was ineffective counsel. Even though she has been asked about that and wants to continue w/ Baez. Why, I don't know.

 

[ZsaZsa]

I have been discussing the State's Motion in Limine dated August 12th regarding the Testimony of Health Experts which is posted on the WFTV site, and I read yesterday.

I don't know how to bring the link over when the motions are posted at wftv like this but the pdf is http://www.wftv.com/pdf/27528144/detail.html. It is featured in the most recent article posted in the Casey Anthony section.

Do you know how to copy and paste? That's all it takes.

 

[logicalgirl]

Do you know how to copy and paste? That's all it takes.

I tried that but at the wftv website and a pdf - it didn't work for me. But thank you! I can't do a screen cap - but copy and paste is my speed LOL!

 

[Just Jayla]

Never mind. Googled it. Google is your FRIEND!
Oxycontin Addiction: Hillbilly Heroin

Ya beat me to it!!

ETA-Courtesy of my neighbor in Appalachian Kentucky. I bought a piece of land down there and he told us if we were going to build a house, to make sure we oversaw the construction-Because if any valuable materials were in the build, like copper, the locals would steal it to buy their "hillbilly heroin." Bout fell out when he said that, and this southern girl has heard just about everything! He also told us to look out for booby traps on our land, where marijuana growers will sneak in and plant, then leave poisonous snakes in the area, fish hooks hanging from trees, even small bombs, to protect their crop.
Fun times. Haven't been down there for a while to check the land. Might think about doing that sometime soon.....with my big ole .308 in tow just in case!!

 

[ThinkTank]

Hold on to your hats, another motion has been filed. WFTV just did a story on the 5 pm news about a new motion, filed today by the defense. Basically it says that if the judge decided to let the State examine KC, the defense is going to withdraw their doctor's reports. so rather than let someone from the state examine KC, the defense has decided they don't want their doctors testifying in the guilt phase of the trial.:banghead::banghead:

WFTV said the same thing in this article published today.
The Defense did not write this in a Motion they filed though....but the Defense DID withdraw Dr. Danziger (or vice versa).

http://www.wftv.com/news/27554969/detail.html
Hearing Continues In Case Against Casey
Posted: 6:47 am EDT April 15, 2011
excerpt:
"If the judge does order a prosecution doctor to evaluate Casey, defense lawyers indicated they may not call their mental health witnesses at all, nullifying all the testimony."

 

[Intermezzo]

I think it is very interesting that it is Danziger, the doctor who evaluated KC way, way back in the beginning who is being dropped as a witness. When he was deposed by the State, the defense was there, correct? It is obvious that he made some statements in his deposition that the defense was not happy with at all! I wonder what questions JA and LDB asked the doctor that sent the defense into panic mode - again! Why did Dr. Danziger not even finish his deposition? I think the hearing tomorrow is going to be quite entertaining!

bbm
Same here.

 

[logicalgirl]

I hope we actually get to hear the arguments at today's hearings and it isn't all sidebars! I am not surprised Dr.Danziger dropped out - if the SA can get him on the stand there were many many dangerous questions either LDB or JA could ask him to rebut his own testimony, since he would be discussing opinions.

Bill S. has said the Defense would rather withdraw their experts than have the option of the SA questioning them. It appears they were trying to slide these "opinions" into testimony unchallenged.

The only thing I think I will find really annoying is we probably will not hear what diagnosis the Defense and these experts were going to try to float.

And interesting that Tony Piptone's report about the new pic of ICA and Amy on July 4th was described as slanted to information to the Prosecution rather than the defense, and he made a point of saying this was information LE Yuri Melich brought forward. Is the tide beginning to turn in the media?