MS - Jessica Chambers, 19, found burned near her car, Panola County, 6 Dec 2014 - #11

[rbarber17]

A couple of recent posts started me thinking. One mentioned Fahrenheit 451, the 1950's science fiction book by Ray Bradbury in which firemen of the future drove around on firetrucks, locating and burning any and all books, which had been totally banned by the government. The cryptic title refers to the ignition temperature of paper. The second post was the one with a link to an article in which LD stated that Jessica would have kept anything of a personal nature locked safely away in her car trunk, since she knew Mom would be snooping around her room, trying to figure out what was frightening her so badly.

My thoughts are this:

(1) If there was a diary, or maybe the beginnings of a book, kept in the trunk and it was there the evening of December 6th, could it have survived the fire, or at least significant portions of it?
(2) The temperature inside the trunk would have had to reach 451°F – about the temperature of a pretty hot oven – before the pages would have spontaneously ignited.
(3) But even then, the amount of oxygen for that burning to continue would have been limited to the oxygen contained inside the airspace of the sealed trunk cavity, so would have eventually burned itself out. Or at least, up until the rubber seals melted and allowed a limited amount of fresh air to be sucked in around the edges of the trunk lid.
(4) Furthermore, a compact object like a book or diary might be very hard to burn completely. Probably at most a few of the pages nearest the front and back covers, and of course the edges of all of the pages, would have been lost to ash. Forgive my saying this, but a significant portion of Jessica survived the fire, and she was out in the open with tons of oxygen. Three things required for combustion: fuel, heat, and oxygen. Remove any one of the three, no combustion.​

Do you think LE has some valuable evidence they salvaged from the trunk? They were certainly very focused on gaining access early on, at least judging from the prying of the trunk lid evident in the photos taken in the impound lot.

JMO
:lookingitup:

 

[wfgodot]

The autoignition point of paper -- frequently give as 451°F because of the Ray Bradbury novel -- actually can range from 424-475°F, depending on the type of study being conducted, and the type of paper used -- its thickness, density, composition, etc. -- in the study.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoignition_temperature

 

[rbarber17]

The autoignition point of paper -- frequently give as 451°F because of the Ray Bradbury novel -- actually can range from 424-475°F, depending on the type of study being conducted, and the type of paper used -- its thickness, density, composition, etc. -- in the study.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoignition_temperature

Speaking of ignition points, did you happen to notice the number of your post, wfgodot? Thanks for the info, though.

 

[Steleheart]

A couple of recent posts started me thinking. One mentioned Fahrenheit 451, the 1950's science fiction book by Ray Bradbury in which firemen of the future drove around on firetrucks, locating and burning any and all books, which had been totally banned by the government. The cryptic title refers to the ignition temperature of paper. The second post was the one with a link to an article in which LD stated that Jessica would have kept anything of a personal nature locked safely away in her car trunk, since she knew Mom would be snooping around her room, trying to figure out what was frightening her so badly.

My thoughts are this:

(1) If there was a diary, or maybe the beginnings of a book, kept in the trunk and it was there the evening of December 6th, could it have survived the fire, or at least significant portions of it?
(2) The temperature inside the trunk would have had to reach 451°F – about the temperature of a pretty hot oven – before the pages would have spontaneously ignited.
(3) But even then, the amount of oxygen for that burning to continue would have been limited to the oxygen contained inside the airspace of the sealed trunk cavity, so would have eventually burned itself out. Or at least, up until the rubber seals melted and allowed a limited amount of fresh air to be sucked in around the edges of the trunk lid.
(4) Furthermore, a compact object like a book or diary might be very hard to burn completely. Probably at most a few of the pages nearest the front and back covers, and of course the edges of all of the pages, would have been lost to ash. Forgive my saying this, but a significant portion of Jessica survived the fire, and she was out in the open with tons of oxygen. Three things required for combustion: fuel, heat, and oxygen. Remove any one of the three, no combustion.​

Do you think LE has some valuable evidence they salvaged from the trunk? They were certainly very focused on gaining access early on, at least judging from the prying of the trunk lid evident in the photos taken in the impound lot.

JMO
:lookingitup:

Good points but my first thought is that I don't think the trunk lacks oxygen at all. I don't think it is as sealed as you say. It has been my experience that the back seats, if removed, open at least partly into the trunk. I have only had SUVs and Mini Vans in the last couple decades so I don't know about Jessica's car specifically, but I do not think the trunk is protected by a firewall.
In any case the fire was H O T. like 1500 degrees or more.

"Fires can cause fatal or debilitating burn
injuries. A vehicle fire can generate heat
upward of 1,500 degrees Fahrenheit. Keep
in mind that water boils at 212 degrees
Fahrenheit and that most foods are cooked
at temperatures of less than 500 degrees
Fahrenheit. Flames from burning vehicles
can often shoot out distances of 10 feet
or more.
Parts of the vehicle can burst because
of heat."
https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/fa-243.pdf

RE Jessica surviving relatively whole. In men anyway, A body is 55-75% water by weight. "Adipose tissue contains about 10% of water, while muscle tissue contains about 75%." "In humans - By weight, the average human adult male is approximately 55%-75% ."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_water

But I think Jessica, if she had a gash on her head and had been knocked out, woke up and exited the vehicle - ie; she was "found near her vehicle". I think it would take an extended amount of time to burn a body @ 1500 deg. But a book is less than toast IMO.

I just don't think the trunk is that protected. My guess is that all that was in there was the jack and part of a unicycle

MOO

 

[Steleheart]

Speaking of ignition points, did you happen to notice the number of your post, wfgodot? Thanks for the info, though.

:scared:

 

[rbarber17]

<snip>
I just don't think the trunk is that protected. My guess is that all that was in there was the jack and part of a unicycle
<snip>

MOO

Good one, Steleheart...

 

[gngr~snap]

I can't find the link I'm looking for. If any evidence was found in her trunk it might not be able to be used in a trial due to the car not being secured as evidence. However, if there was any portion of a diary or the like that was still able to be read, it could be used during the investigation I would think. There could have been something in her room or in the computer as well.
Just a thought.
Moo

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk

 

[Steleheart]

I can't find the link I'm looking for. If any evidence was found in her trunk it might not be able to be used in a trial due to the car not being secured as evidence. However, if there was any portion of a diary or the like that was still able to be read, it could be used during the investigation I would think. There could have been something in her room or in the computer as well.
Just a thought.
Moo

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk

I only seeing the post on this thread where he is watching them prying it open. If he thought the car was damaged then I don't trust his observations, JMO. It was evident to most people in the beginning that the car had not been rammed or forced off the road but rather that the trunk had, necessarily been pried open.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...la-County-Dec-2014-11&p=12086354#post12086354

FWIW any car fire I have watched it is the FD that has the tools to pry the trunk and it is always done on scene in order to assess if the fire is completely out. It is, after all sitting on the gas tank. :gaah:

 

[Classito]

No I posted it here. I said it.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12083967

I am referring to some "stuff" people reportedly found at the scene of the wreck. A small liquor bottle, a melted blue plastic jug, a wind shield wiper... The media was at the scene Sunday afternoon and none of that stuff was there. The area was clean.
People are claiming it was never secured. It was secured. Until Sunday afternoon after the wreck. Jessica's uncle Mike was there when they left. People were trying to say LE came by picking stuff up later.
They may have, but that was after they had taken what they needed for the case.
Imo
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After the wreck? What wreck?

Classito

 

[gngr~snap]

After the wreck? What wreck?

Classito

You are right. That should say murder not wreck.
A little confusion there. I think it was set up initially to look like a wreck, until it was determined it was a murder.

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[gngr~snap]

I only seeing the post on this thread where he is watching them prying it open. If he thought the car was damaged then I don't trust his observations, JMO. It was evident to most people in the beginning that the car had not been rammed or forced off the road but rather that the trunk had, necessarily been pried open.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...la-County-Dec-2014-11&p=12086354#post12086354

FWIW any car fire I have watched it is the FD that has the tools to pry the trunk and it is always done on scene in order to assess if the fire is completely out. It is, after all sitting on the gas tank. :gaah:

Perhaps fire fighters could see through the burned out backseat that there was no body in the trunk?
Moo

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk

 

[rbarber17]

Good points but my first thought is that I don't think the trunk lacks oxygen at all. I don't think it is as sealed as you say. It has been my experience that the back seats, if removed, open at least partly into the trunk. I have only had SUVs and Mini Vans in the last couple decades so I don't know about Jessica's car specifically, but I do not think the trunk is protected by a firewall.

<snip>

I found a photo of a trunk interior for a 2003 Kia Rio Sedan, which I think is only one year older than Jessica's? Anyway, it shows a solid partition between the trunk and cockpit with no hole through it, although it is covered with carpet material, so you can't really tell if it is a solid steel partition, or one with holes in it once all the cloth is removed:

http://www.motorauthority.com/image/100299617_2003-kia-rio-4-door-sedan-auto-trunk

There's another thing I'm wondering about, too. If the trunk was wide open via the car's interior after the fire consumed all the flammable backseat material, then why go to all the trouble of prying the trunk lid open from the outside? Somebody probably had a doozy of a backache the next day.

JMO

 

[Steleheart]

I found a photo of a trunk interior for a 2003 Kia Rio Sedan, which I think is only one year older than Jessica's? Anyway, it shows a solid partition between the trunk and cockpit with no hole through it, although it is covered with carpet material, so you can't really tell if it is a solid steel partition, or one with holes in it once all the cloth is removed:

http://www.motorauthority.com/image/100299617_2003-kia-rio-4-door-sedan-auto-trunk

There's another thing I'm wondering about, too. If the trunk was wide open via the car's interior after the fire consumed all the flammable backseat material, then why go to all the trouble of prying the trunk lid open from the outside? Somebody probably had a doozy of a backache the next day.

JMO

Well this gets curiouser and curiouser and I freely admit that I do not know, as I said I was going by my experience. But that is in old timey times with old timey cars.

Jessica's car was a 2005, I believe, but no matter. What we have is a question as to whether the trunk was an oven or a furnace. I don't think it matters regarding paper. Harking back to my early (early, early) lab training regarding paper filters, weighing, and consuming in a lab furnace to obtain results, the paper and ash is consumed at a particular time and temperature. But no matter. My impression is that whatever books, stack of books or piles of papers (I remember my child's trunk during college) Whatever might be left would be, at best, charcoal.
The point being, I agree something was in there that was needed to be retrieved.
Opening the trunk would reveal a mess. The mess would include, to some degree, (possibly) rubber residues from a tire let's say. Metal fragments or residues, carpet, synthetics or other residues from Mfg. standards, insulation ash and residues, and whatever foreign elements there might be. Let's say a pool of plastic residue, drugs or minerals - What those foreign substances were, would be a forensic chore involving a gas chromatograph and other such elemental analyses.
I don't know, I am only a disabled janitor, LOL

My theory goes back to some early speculations as well as lately revealed facts that are difficult to link here and I am still developing it. But it does include general information gleaned from local sources.

At this point I will concede that something was in the trunk and although I am not certain what it was, I have some ideas.

My Cow Only. :moo:

 

[rbarber17]

<snip>
Jessica's car was a 2005, I believe, but no matter. What we have is a question as to whether the trunk was an oven or a furnace. I don't think it matters regarding paper. Harking back to my early (early, early) lab training regarding paper filters, weighing, and consyuming in a lab furnace to obtain results, the paper and ash is consumed at a particular time and temperature. But no matter. My impression is that whatever books, stack of books or piles of papers (I remember my child's trunk during college) Whatever might be left would be, at best, charcoal.
<snip>

I agree there is a difference in degrees (sorry, couldn't resist) between an oven and a furnace. I would not recommend baking an apple pie at 1500 deg-F, nor would I recommend heat treating a bar of steel at 450 deg-F.

So there is definitely an element of temperature, but also an element of time. We are venturing into the realm of transient heat transfer analysis. For example, toss a book into a roaring fire and knock it out a few seconds later and you will still be able to read it. Wait an hour or two, not so much. If there was a solid mass in the trunk like a book, journal, diary, whatever it would have taken a certain amount of time for the temperature of the air inside to increase from the flames outside. At some point, it would have reached auto ignition temperature as pointed out by wfgodot. But the surface temperature of the combusting object would be much greater than its internal or core temperature, due to heat transfer and such things as thermal conductivity, specific heat, surface heat transfer coefficient, Biot number, etc.

It would have taken some finite amount of time for a solid object like a book to turn completely into ash. Although we are not doing much steel making in the USA, consider the old coke ovens used to make coke out of coal, to then be used when charging the blast furnaces. It was not completely consumed either, at least not during the making of the coke. The same holds true for the making of charcoal out of wood.

BAA, I mean MOO

 

[wfgodot]

300 days now.

 

[PeterThomasFan]

Still lurking myself. Not much to add.

Been busy and sick and sick of being too busy.

 

[Classito]

I'm going to go with it is standard procedure to open the trunk with a car fire...Like mentioned above..the gas tank is below it....as well as possible other flammable/explosive material inside...



Classito

 

[Steleheart]

I agree there is a difference in degrees (sorry, couldn't resist) between an oven and a furnace. I would not recommend baking an apple pie at 1500 deg-F, nor would I recommend heat treating a bar of steel at 450 deg-F.

So there is definitely an element of temperature, but also an element of time. We are venturing into the realm of transient heat transfer analysis. For example, toss a book into a roaring fire and knock it out a few seconds later and you will still be able to read it. Wait an hour or two, not so much. If there was a solid mass in the trunk like a book, journal, diary, whatever it would have taken a certain amount of time for the temperature of the air inside to increase from the flames outside. At some point, it would have reached auto ignition temperature as pointed out by wfgodot. But the surface temperature of the combusting object would be much greater than its internal or core temperature, due to heat transfer and such things as thermal conductivity, specific heat, surface heat transfer coefficient, Biot number, etc.

It would have taken some finite amount of time for a solid object like a book to turn completely into ash. Although we are not doing much steel making in the USA, consider the old coke ovens used to make coke out of coal, to then be used when charging the blast furnaces. It was not completely consumed either, at least not during the making of the coke. The same holds true for the making of charcoal out of wood.

BAA, I mean MOO

YES it is the timing I was getting to. And the time line is so very tight. Almost exact. They were not after the books.

MOO

 

[Ms. Shagwell]

For anyone who is keeping track, it looks like Roger Hentz was released from the Grenada jail today under his own recognizance. Let's see how long it takes before he lands back in another county jail.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

The trunk is easily explained. There was only one reason they opened it the way they did. They had a girl burned alive already. They had to make sure there wasn't another person in the trunk. There was an urgency in ripping it open instead of waiting to get in through the backseat after knocking the fire down.