Found Deceased MT - Amy Harding-Permann, 34, Great Falls, 26 Jan 2020

[The Night Watchman]

If that was the case why has her body not surfaced

IMO, the river may be too cold for decomposition to set in. In continual very cold water, bodies will never surface. In this case, the river will warm up but don't know when that starts.

Not sure she is in the river. But I don't know what to think after hearing about the 911 call. Was Amy actually heard on the call? I have to assume so.

 

[CluelessWonder]

Has anyone explained why they were fighting in the first place? Was that mentioned in the 911 call? I mean, if she ripped his shirt, she must have been angry about something. The only thing that would make sense is an affair. Was he having one?

 

[The Night Watchman]

Has anyone explained why they were fighting in the first place? Was that mentioned in the 911 call? I mean, if she ripped his shirt, she must have been angry about something. The only thing that would make sense is an affair. Was he having one?

Lots of options for a fight, many of them are minor and escalate based on repressed anger for other things. Drinking doesn't help.

We don't know a lot about what happened here.

 

[mickey2942]

Body found in Missouri River

No, it is not Amy. But I saw the headline and hoped that she had been found.

Male body. Not sure who he is...

 

[MrsCTeach]

Body found in Missouri River

No, it is not Amy. But I saw the headline and hoped that she had been found.

Male body. Not sure who he is...

Victor Struss is missing from Great Falls. May be him. GFPD asking for public's help in locating missing man

I do want to make a point that it can take some time for a body to surface in a river. We have a number of dams, as well, so that may play into it.

For example, a coworker of mine unfortunately committed suicide by jumping in the river due to a terminal illness. We knew he was in the river, but his body wasn't discovered and removed from the dam until approximately 2.5 weeks passed. He jumped in significantly closer to the dam than Amy could have entered the river. His situation was also in the summer.

I feel morbid mentioning this, so I would like to not mention my former co-worker's name.

 

[catch_22]

MOO:

Statistically speaking, there is a 96% chance that the good doctor is responsible for her disappearance. JMO. Now, if she was heard on the 911 call, or seen by police, then it seems obvious to me that he isn't involved.

How could she have not been heard on the 911 call? I picture a lot more screaming than beating. And really, if nothing else.......lock yourself in the bathroom until the police arrive.

If she was heard or seen by LE, it seems very strange that they haven't at least released that information. To me, it seems like they are being very tight-lipped and treating this like an "unofficial" criminal investigation.

Oh, his shirt was ripped? And he had defensive wounds that he declined medical attention for? Yeah, I'm sure he didn't want them looking too closely at those.

And she left on foot (without her phone and purse) but he had plenty of names and addresses of friends and family where she might be (presumably miles away). Deflect, distract......

The police call log is kind of hard to translate, but there is no mention of hearing or seeing her.

And then the calls to jackie: I can imagine she was sound asleep and woken up by her phone ringing at midnight with a strange number. Doesn't recognize the voice.....click. (un-cooperative?) Then they call back and she talks to them (probably half asleep and confused) and they determine that she is not alarmed.....ok.

One more thing that stood out to me was the phrase in the call log "he asked if we can press her". This was referring to the call with jackie I believe. Am I interpreting this right? Was the doctor asking LE to put pressure on jackie? Because the doctor "just knows she knows something". Distract, deflect.....

I've read that this case is strangely quiet. No public pleas, no reward money, etc. I think everyone knows what happened here. I think LE probably asked friends and family to not speak out online or to the media. It is just a matter if they can find enough evidence to bring charges.

Obviously, it is important to establish her last known contact (seeing or hearing. no text / email) that she had with anyone (besides the dr.) and then focus on that timeframe up until the 911 call. He's probably smart enough to leave their phones home, and drive a vehicle without gps. Without cctv or a sighting, LE might not have much to go on. They could maybe determine a likely time-window of phone inactivity? She could be about anywhere. Did he commit the perfect crime?

The sad truth is that she was probably long-dead and miles away from that house when the 911 call was made.

I hope I am wrong.

Maybe she'd just had enough and decided to go jump in the river. If this is the case, it is unfortunate for people to get their names dragged through the mud by people like me. This is just an unfortunate side-effect of cases like this that, to me, seems inevitable. I just hope that she is found, preferably alive, and that the truth comes out.

MOO

 

[iluvmua]

MOO:

Statistically speaking, there is a 96% chance that the good doctor is responsible for her disappearance. JMO. Now, if she was heard on the 911 call, or seen by police, then it seems obvious to me that he isn't involved.

How could she have not been heard on the 911 call? I picture a lot more screaming than beating. And really, if nothing else.......lock yourself in the bathroom until the police arrive.

If she was heard or seen by LE, it seems very strange that they haven't at least released that information. To me, it seems like they are being very tight-lipped and treating this like an "unofficial" criminal investigation.

Oh, his shirt was ripped? And he had defensive wounds that he declined medical attention for? Yeah, I'm sure he didn't want them looking too closely at those.

And she left on foot (without her phone and purse) but he had plenty of names and addresses of friends and family where she might be (presumably miles away). Deflect, distract......

The police call log is kind of hard to translate, but there is no mention of hearing or seeing her.

And then the calls to jackie: I can imagine she was sound asleep and woken up by her phone ringing at midnight with a strange number. Doesn't recognize the voice.....click. (un-cooperative?) Then they call back and she talks to them (probably half asleep and confused) and they determine that she is not alarmed.....ok.

One more thing that stood out to me was the phrase in the call log "he asked if we can press her". This was referring to the call with jackie I believe. Am I interpreting this right? Was the doctor asking LE to put pressure on jackie? Because the doctor "just knows she knows something". Distract, deflect.....

I've read that this case is strangely quiet. No public pleas, no reward money, etc. I think everyone knows what happened here. I think LE probably asked friends and family to not speak out online or to the media. It is just a matter if they can find enough evidence to bring charges.

Obviously, it is important to establish her last known contact (seeing or hearing. no text / email) that she had with anyone (besides the dr.) and then focus on that timeframe up until the 911 call. He's probably smart enough to leave their phones home, and drive a vehicle without gps. Without cctv or a sighting, LE might not have much to go on. They could maybe determine a likely time-window of phone inactivity? She could be about anywhere. Did he commit the perfect crime?

The sad truth is that she was probably long-dead and miles away from that house when the 911 call was made.

I hope I am wrong.

Maybe she'd just had enough and decided to go jump in the river. If this is the case, it is unfortunate for people to get their names dragged through the mud by people like me. This is just an unfortunate side-effect of cases like this that, to me, seems inevitable. I just hope that she is found, preferably alive, and that the truth comes out.

MOO

They have multiple POI.

If he did anything, with all of the electronic data they have, I would think he would have been charged with something by now.

Jmo



I am sure they looked all through out his house for evidence of a crime.

 

[The Night Watchman]

They have multiple POI.

If he did anything, with all of the electronic data they have, I would think he would have been charged with something by now.

Jmo

I am sure they looked all through out his house for evidence of a crime.

I don't think LE has any POIs. LE commented early about multiple POIs, but I understood it to be a generic comment not particularly related to Amy's case, IIRC. For LE to announce a POI, it suggests they are investigating a crime, and they have not acknowledged that here.

The 911 call transcript suggests to me that the Dr. is a victim here, and not a potential POI. Unless there is more to the story.

 

[Occam's Zebra]

Wondering where you get a "96% chance" that JV is involved. That seems quite precise. How did you calculate it?

Isn't it just as possible that he's telling the truth?

Thing is, we don't know.

Maybe they have a history of long, contentious fights and this one got out of hand. Maybe he's been threatening to call the police on her for weeks because she's been physically abusing him. Maybe she has an alcohol problem and refused to get help. Maybe maybe maybe.

We just don't know. If we had the full story, the answers would be much clearer, but we don't. So how you can decide JV is guilty is confusing to me. 96% certainty - that's solid to me. I'm not seeing how you can be so sure.

 

[Alethea]

I don't think LE has any POIs. LE commented early about multiple POIs, but I understood it to be a generic comment not particularly related to Amy's case, IIRC. For LE to announce a POI, it suggests they are investigating a crime, and they have not acknowledged that here.

The 911 call transcript suggests to me that the Dr. is a victim here, and not a potential POI. Unless there is more to the story.

LE arrived while this call was going on. They would have seen if the state of the house matched what was described on the call. Both Amy and the Dr have children so there may have been other people in the house that could verify what happened or didn't happen.

If the 911 call transcript is accurate and LE has evidence to prove it wasn't staged, they likely would not release that information to avoid tarnishing the victim's reputation.

So I think either the 911 call transcript is an accurate depiction of what happened in the house that was corroborated by LE or LE knows it was staged and they are testing evidence and preparing a case against a known party for murder. I lean towards the former myself.

 

[Steph8angels]

All MOO
Best scenario: She is in a high guarded rehab for this drama stress related relationship and her career as a life saving nurse. Maybe she was intoxicating to decompress. Life on hold for help in recovery. JMO

Or worst she was so upset and succumb to a tragic accident making this case even more senseless and sad.
MOO

Not seeing evidence of any kind of foul play as of yet.
all JMO
THE STUGGLE IS REAL IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE.

 

[The Night Watchman]

LE arrived while this call was going on. They would have seen if the state of the house matched what was described on the call. Both Amy and the Dr have children so there may have been other people in the house that could verify what happened or didn't happen.

If the 911 call transcript is accurate and LE has evidence to prove it wasn't staged, they likely would not release that information to avoid tarnishing the victim's reputation.

So I think either the 911 call transcript is an accurate depiction of what happened in the house that was corroborated by LE or LE knows it was staged and they are testing evidence and preparing a case against a known party for murder. I lean towards the former myself.

Agree completely.

 

[Dave F.]

Victor Struss is missing from Great Falls. May be him. GFPD asking for public's help in locating missing man

I do want to make a point that it can take some time for a body to surface in a river. We have a number of dams, as well, so that may play into it.

For example, a coworker of mine unfortunately committed suicide by jumping in the river due to a terminal illness. We knew he was in the river, but his body wasn't discovered and removed from the dam until approximately 2.5 weeks passed. He jumped in significantly closer to the dam than Amy could have entered the river. His situation was also in the summer.

I feel morbid mentioning this, so I would like to not mention my former co-worker's name.

There is over seventeen miles of river between where she was last seen, and the most likely place (of many likely places) that a body would turn up. This the the still water area behind the Black Eagle Dam. Beyond that, there is eight more miles of river and five more dams. There are seven dams total, in Great Falls, all downstream. In theory, a body could pass any of the seven dams, but to pass completely through Great Falls is the least likely scenario. IMO
The map is a Google Earth aerial view, with the location where she was last seen and the dam locations marked by pins.

 

[123coldren]

LE arrived while this call was going on. They would have seen if the state of the house matched what was described on the call. Both Amy and the Dr have children so there may have been other people in the house that could verify what happened or didn't happen.

If the 911 call transcript is accurate and LE has evidence to prove it wasn't staged, they likely would not release that information to avoid tarnishing the victim's reputation.

So I think either the 911 call transcript is an accurate depiction of what happened in the house that was corroborated by LE or LE knows it was staged and they are testing evidence and preparing a case against a known party for murder. I lean towards the former myself.

One thing people keep saying points to his guilt is him not making a public plea r speaking to the media or offering a reward for information to me all that points to is he has a good lawyer who has advised him that he should keep silent as he could be a POI . What speaks volumes to me is that with the speed LEOS arrived and his abrupt change from she's attacking me to she just ran out side if she did why did they not see her even if she hid but for no trace to be found seams sketchy .

 

[iluvmua]

One thing people keep saying points to his guilt is him not making a public plea r speaking to the media or offering a reward for information to me all that points to is he has a good lawyer who has advised him that he should keep silent as he could be a POI . What speaks volumes to me is that with the speed LEOS arrived and his abrupt change from she's attacking me to she just ran out side if she did why did they not see her even if she hid but for no trace to be found seams sketchy .

It was dark outside when they arrived and if she hid, they probably would not have seen her.

 

[catch_22]

LE arrived while this call was going on. They would have seen if the state of the house matched what was described on the call. Both Amy and the Dr have children so there may have been other people in the house that could verify what happened or didn't happen.

If the 911 call transcript is accurate and LE has evidence to prove it wasn't staged, they likely would not release that information to avoid tarnishing the victim's reputation.

So I think either the 911 call transcript is an accurate depiction of what happened in the house that was corroborated by LE or LE knows it was staged and they are testing evidence and preparing a case against a known party for murder. I lean towards the former myself.

I think her image was already tarnished from day one when it was reported that she was intoxicated and assaulting him. I don't think LE confirming if they saw or heard her would tarnish her any additional amount.

 

[catch_22]

Wondering where you get a "96% chance" that JV is involved. That seems quite precise. How did you calculate it?

Isn't it just as possible that he's telling the truth?

Thing is, we don't know.

Maybe they have a history of long, contentious fights and this one got out of hand. Maybe he's been threatening to call the police on her for weeks because she's been physically abusing him. Maybe she has an alcohol problem and refused to get help. Maybe maybe maybe.

We just don't know. If we had the full story, the answers would be much clearer, but we don't. So how you can decide JV is guilty is confusing to me. 96% certainty - that's solid to me. I'm not seeing how you can be so sure.

I just pulled 96% out of the air. I want to stay somewhat open-minded. I just think the story sounds awfully suspicious. But, we only have a limited amount of the facts. Maybe LE did see or hear her. Maybe there were others in the house to back up his story.

 

[Strangeworld]

One thing people keep saying points to his guilt is him not making a public plea r speaking to the media or offering a reward for information to me all that points to is he has a good lawyer who has advised him that he should keep silent as he could be a POI . What speaks volumes to me is that with the speed LEOS arrived and his abrupt change from she's attacking me to she just ran out side if she did why did they not see her even if she hid but for no trace to be found seams sketchy .

Family or friends choosing not to speak out publicly is often nothing to do with guilt. How would those people then explain the guilty parties that speak out, get involved in searches, etc. It's just unfounded to use this as a guide to guilt.

I know there are members of my family that suffer/have suffered anxiety and other mental health issues that would mean they would NEVER get in front of a camera and plead for help for other family members, yet they would walk across fire for them in private.

Generalisations of human behaviour comes from our own experiences in life, how we think we would act, how we think others who love us would act. This is often not the reality. For some people, it takes an ENORMOUS amount of strength to go public in these situations. And not always because of mental health issues, some people are just more private and more willing to leave it to the authorities to do their jobs. All IMO of course

 

[LOST_IN_TRANSLATION]

MOO:

Statistically speaking, there is a 96% chance that the good doctor is responsible for her disappearance. JMO. Now, if she was heard on the 911 call, or seen by police, then it seems obvious to me that he isn't involved.

How could she have not been heard on the 911 call? I picture a lot more screaming than beating. And really, if nothing else.......lock yourself in the bathroom until the police arrive.

If she was heard or seen by LE, it seems very strange that they haven't at least released that information. To me, it seems like they are being very tight-lipped and treating this like an "unofficial" criminal investigation.

Oh, his shirt was ripped? And he had defensive wounds that he declined medical attention for? Yeah, I'm sure he didn't want them looking too closely at those.

And she left on foot (without her phone and purse) but he had plenty of names and addresses of friends and family where she might be (presumably miles away). Deflect, distract......

The police call log is kind of hard to translate, but there is no mention of hearing or seeing her.

And then the calls to jackie: I can imagine she was sound asleep and woken up by her phone ringing at midnight with a strange number. Doesn't recognize the voice.....click. (un-cooperative?) Then they call back and she talks to them (probably half asleep and confused) and they determine that she is not alarmed.....ok.

One more thing that stood out to me was the phrase in the call log "he asked if we can press her". This was referring to the call with jackie I believe. Am I interpreting this right? Was the doctor asking LE to put pressure on jackie? Because the doctor "just knows she knows something". Distract, deflect.....

I've read that this case is strangely quiet. No public pleas, no reward money, etc. I think everyone knows what happened here. I think LE probably asked friends and family to not speak out online or to the media. It is just a matter if they can find enough evidence to bring charges.

Obviously, it is important to establish her last known contact (seeing or hearing. no text / email) that she had with anyone (besides the dr.) and then focus on that timeframe up until the 911 call. He's probably smart enough to leave their phones home, and drive a vehicle without gps. Without cctv or a sighting, LE might not have much to go on. They could maybe determine a likely time-window of phone inactivity? She could be about anywhere. Did he commit the perfect crime?

The sad truth is that she was probably long-dead and miles away from that house when the 911 call was made.

I hope I am wrong.

Maybe she'd just had enough and decided to go jump in the river. If this is the case, it is unfortunate for people to get their names dragged through the mud by people like me. This is just an unfortunate side-effect of cases like this that, to me, seems inevitable. I just hope that she is found, preferably alive, and that the truth comes out.

MOO

Yes, the Dr's story just doesn't add up. From the time he's on the 911, saying Amy is assaulting him, call until LE show up, it's less than a minute. And she simply vanishes into thin air?!?

The 911 transcript doesn't note hearing Amy yell or any kind of a scuffle.

MOO

 

[Dave F.]

Here is a Google Earth aerial shot in which the dams are in pink lettering, the waterfalls light blue, and submerged features lime green. Google Earth has labeled the major islands with white letters. Where AHP was last seen is in the lower left corner, in red. The distance from there to Sulphur Spring, on the upper right, is approximately 26 river miles. In 1804, it took the Lewis and Clark Expedition seven fulls days to traverse this distance, an anecdote which may give some idea of the immensity of the search task.
The photograph is a stock civic photo from Wikipedia (linked) taken from a point just above the "G" in Great Falls on the Google Earth shot. It clearly shows the volume of water that the river is moving, at the speed of a human jogger.
There are a lot of places to get lost. JMO
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Mo_River_Courthouse,_GF_Montana_2.jpg