GUILTY MT - Sherry Arnold, 43, Sidney, 7 Jan 2012 - #3

[Indy Anna]

I am new to this forum. I live in NE Montana and have been following your discussion. I have a couple of things to weigh in on. 1st, the male body found on Friday probably does not have anything to do with the two men in custody for Sherry Arnold's disappearance. A LE friend said he was confirmed alive on Jan 13th in a town over 100 miles away from where he was found. Both Waters and Spells were in custody by then.

The 2nd thing I have been wondering about is the timeline. The judge in CO gave Spells permission to go to Texas on Jan 5th, but didn't one of his relatives state earlier that he had been gone for a couple of weeks?

Welcome to Websleuths, LostinMT!

:welcome4:

 

[Jacie Estes]

I think it comes down to whether we believe Spell's family and also whether we believe that Spell would have actually waited for the judge's permission to leave CO or would he have just left when he wanted to leave. We know Spell lied about going to Texas so it's not a stretch that he might have left CO before January 5th. On the other hand, Spell's family in my opinion is trying to defend him in the press so maybe they exaggerated the story about when Spell left CO to make it look like he was actually looking for work or doing some work.

Spell may have called his family and they convinced him to turn himself in; if he told them he was involved in something where Waters murdered someone and threatened him, that would account for LE knowing she was dead from the get go.

 

[GrainneDhu]

This is the case I was referring to if anyone else is interested in reading about it.

"By helicopter, by all-terrain vehicle and on foot, over the past year-and-a-half, Cornwell had searched the wilderness of North Georgia and nearby North Carolina for any remains of his sister Kristi Cornwell...They sold their lake-front vacation home to fund the search, paying for airplane and helicopter flights and mailing 80,000 fliers with information throughout Georgia, North Carolina and Tennessee...Working with the GBI and using every lead they gave him, Richard Cornwell searched in every spare moment, using a meticulous system...He had a set process where he had to walk every foot of the area he was looking in," GBI spokesman John Bankhead said Monday. "He walked every square foot of an area."

http://www.ajc.com/news/brother-finds-cornwells-remains-794176.html

Interesting article, thank you for posting it.

As your quote points out, searching is an incredibly expensive endeavour. Well beyond the means of the average USAn family, sadly.

It is absolutely necessary that searches be coordinated otherwise they are little better than random luck (hiker or hunter) in finding human remains. If searches are not conducted in a way that is respectful to property owners that give permission to searchers, they can actually harm the effort by alienating people.

Not only does a search coordinator need to be able to juggle millions of details, for a search like this, they need the ultimate in people skills. The people they would be dealing with would be volunteers and cannot be treated like employees.

IF the Arnold family cares to find a search coordinator, another idea would be to coordinate with LE to categorise search areas into low probability to high probability areas. And then contact all the SAR/HRD organisations in the 5 state area to ask them to consider running the high probabiity areas as training assignments.

HRD dogs need ongoing training and if someone could offer to reimburse for travel expenses or even just gasoline, I know many HRD handlers would be willing to donate a day trip to the cause.

 

[CBTampa]

http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...cle_249fac91-b7c1-57c1-9312-9d1da0c2561f.html

Extradition hearing is set.

 

[LostinMT]

http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...cle_249fac91-b7c1-57c1-9312-9d1da0c2561f.html

Extradition hearing is set.

This article answers my question about timeline. It states that according to court records the two men left Western CO two days before Arnold disappeared.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I read that and went "huh?"

I'm a farm woman and I can tell the difference between young trees, mature trees, old growth trees and dead standing trees, winter or summer. Most mature deciduous trees in my area, I can identify in the winter based on bark, the way they branch and their location. Saplings are a little more difficult but with a little thought, I can usually ID them. Trees are like dogs or cattle, each type has identifying characteristics.

I'm also an expert at screaming "BE CAREFUL WITH THAT CHAINSAW!!!!"

I don't doubt that there are a lot of city people who could do the same. I've never had a formal course or apprenticeship, I just learned it by living in the country and learning what is good for my land.

Was the agent saying that the FBI would not accept a witness's account of the type and condition of trees? Because that just seems crazy to me.

No. They were discussing what evidence LE might have and how they have obtained the evidence as there is a lot of interest in how much the suspect(s) have told LE about what they did with Sherry.

 

[Janeumayer]

I have a question: has it been said if Sherry was put in the ground or did they just left her out in the elements? TIA

 

[liltexans]

We don't really know. The FBI statement asks landoweners to look for disturbed soil and states that Sherry "may be buried in a shelter belt". However, locals have said that the ground is frozen and and has been for a while and it's unlikely that anyone could dig a hole very effectively this time of year.

Here's the FBI statement:

http://www.fbi.gov/saltlakecity/pre...ce-from-property-owners-in-sherry-arnold-case

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Just a couple thoughts I've had...

In the beginning of I think that I had the feeling that Waters was more of the instigator, although I have always believed that instigator or not both are equally responsible. That feeling has steadily decreased the more we learn about Spell and certainly as the days pass and we see no indication that either of the suspects are giving LE any information about where Sherry is.

I think I was basing it on the appearance in the beginning that Spell was more likely to be the one to have admitted his involvement to LE. That was somewhat supported when we learned that he had told his family that Waters threatened Spell's wife and child. But if that is all he has said, I see no remorse in that.

I think I was looking at Spell as less of the "hardened" criminal, even less intelligent than Waters. Wouldn't it be criminal common sense not to implicate yourself in anyway as being involved in a crime? I was also looking at Waters' record and physical appearance, but the more I think about it while Spell doesn't have a very long record he has been involved in crime since he was eighteen. Waters was a late bloomer compared to Spell. Who knows what Spell's record will look like when he is forty-seven if he is not found guilty and incarcerated for what he has done to Sherry.

I don't know why Spell implicated himself and Waters, maybe stupidity but stupidity doesn't equal easily influenced when it comes to something like this. He is half Waters' age and is more fearful of spending the rest of his life in prison. Who knows. Whatever the case may be, I am glad that he did implicate himself because without knowing what LE has on the two, Spells' words could help to get them convicted.

And ditto when it comes to Waters' looking more like a hardcore addict. Spell is still young and based on what we've learned of him he doesn't have a history of "just" using drugs, he has a history of selling them as well.

I don't know what it will be like for them if they are extradited to Sidney. I know child molesters are given "special" treatment by other inmates, perhaps it will be the same in a small town where so many of their fellow prisoners knew Sherry. I don't know if that kind of thing could lead to one or both of them helping LE find Sherry if they have information that could assist with that, but at this point I'm clinging to any hope that they will do just that so Sherry can be brought home.

 

[liltexans]

I don't think Spell has ever been held accountable for anything (all of his previous charges were dropped) and now he thinks he can just deflect and blame the other guy and play the victim himself. He reminds me of Casey Anthony and she's diabolical in my opinion.

I actually don't think that Spell gave anything up, but I believe he did implicate himself while trying to play the victim of Waters. Also, based on both of their criminal records, I think Spell is just as likely as Waters to have sexually assaulted Sherry (speculating--we obviously don't know if Sherry was sexually assaulted).

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I don't think Spell has ever been held accountable for anything (all of his previous charges were dropped) and now he thinks he can just deflect and blame the other guy and play the victim himself. He reminds me of Casey Anthony and she's diabolical in my opinion.

I actually don't think that Spell gave anything up, but I believe he did implicate himself while trying to play the victim of Waters. Also, based on both of their criminal records, I think Spell is just as likely as Waters to have sexually assaulted Sherry (speculating--we obviously don't know if Sherry was sexually assaulted).

I agree. Based on what we have seen so far, I think there is more to indicate that Spell is capable of sexual violence than Waters.

And I agree about Spell being a lot like Casey Anthony. It looks like he fell through the cracks and I think that only makes these kinds of people more deadly.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Not directly on topic but odd...

I was just googling shelterbelt information and when I went to look at the associated images there was a pic of a very young Bob Dylan :waitasec:

 

[GrainneDhu]

We don't really know. The FBI statement asks landoweners to look for disturbed soil and states that Sherry "may be buried in a shelter belt". However, locals have said that the ground is frozen and and has been for a while and it's unlikely that anyone could dig a hole very effectively this time of year.

Here's the FBI statement:

http://www.fbi.gov/saltlakecity/pre...ce-from-property-owners-in-sherry-arnold-case

For now, I'm going with the FBI statement that strongly implies she was buried.

This reminds me a bit of the Kyron Horman case, where people argue endlessly that he could not have left the school unobserved. The facts, so far as are publicly known, are that he was not observed leaving the school. Therefore, no matter how impossible it seems, obviously it was possible because no one recalls seeing him leave the school.

I'm aware the ground is frozen and that digging a deep hole would probably be impossible for two men without access to power equipment. I'm also aware that until the last few weeks, temps were swinging quite a bit and I know from my own gardening experience that ground temperatures can vary quite a lot near treelines. In a place that catches the sun and shelters it from the wind, the ground can be up to 20 F warmer than a spot just 25 feet away.

I would hope that no one in the area thinks "oh, the ground is frozen, no way she could be buried on my property" and decides not to check based on that rationale.

 

[liltexans]

I agree that they may have buried Sherry. I kind of doubt the hole would be very deep since the ground is pretty hard. I think the main thing that would deter landowners from searching right now would be snow on the ground. I have no idea if there's any snow on the ground in those counties right now, but I could picture a landowner not bothering to look until the snow melts.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I think I was looking at Spell as less of the "hardened" criminal, even less intelligent than Waters.

SBM

I looked at Water's record, particularly all the driving without a license charges, and started wondering just how intelligent he is.

At least in my part of the country, the police don't routinely set up checkpoints to catch those driving without licenses. Almost always, someone charged with driving without a license was speeding or driving erratically, doing something that got them pulled over and then the officer discovers they don't have a valid license.

How difficult is it to drive in such a way as not to draw attention to one's self? Particularly for a white guy who wouldn't be at risk for the crime of "driving while black" (statistics show that this is still a problem even today). I would have thought that the first time he was pulled over and then charged for driving without a license would have been the last time he sped, drove erratically or whatever.

Clearly, he never learned that. Says to me he's not particularly bright.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

SBM

I looked at Water's record, particularly all the driving without a license charges, and started wondering just how intelligent he is.

At least in my part of the country, the police don't routinely set up checkpoints to catch those driving without licenses. Almost always, someone charged with driving without a license was speeding or driving erratically, doing something that got them pulled over and then the officer discovers they don't have a valid license.

How difficult is it to drive in such a way as not to draw attention to one's self? Particularly for a white guy who wouldn't be at risk for the crime of "driving while black" (statistics show that this is still a problem even today). I would have thought that the first time he was pulled over and then charged for driving without a license would have been the last time he sped, drove erratically or whatever.

Clearly, he never learned that. Says to me he's not particularly bright.

I agree, Waters isn't the bulb in the box. Maybe I should have said that I had considered the possibility that Spell was especially challenged... more so than your average criminal, perhaps clinically stupid.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I actually don't think that Spell gave anything up, but I believe he did implicate himself while trying to play the victim of Waters. Also, based on both of their criminal records, I think Spell is just as likely as Waters to have sexually assaulted Sherry (speculating--we obviously don't know if Sherry was sexually assaulted).

SBM

The fact that Spell's sex charge was dropped after it was ascertained that he was under 18 suggests to me that it was probably statutory rape.

Colorado has a sort of stepped system for consent.

According to wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#Colorado

The age of consent in Colorado is 17; however, there exists in the legislation close-in-age exceptions, which allow those aged 15 and 16 to engage in acts with those less than ten years older and those less than 15 to engage in acts with those less than four years older. However a 17-year-old can not legally consent to a person that is in position of trust.

18-3-402(1) Any actor who knowingly inflicts sexual intrusion or sexual penetration on a victim commits sexual assault if: (d) At the time of the commission of the act, the victim is less than fifteen years of age and the actor is at least four years older than the victim and is not the spouse of the victim; or (e) At the time of the commission of the act, the victim is at least fifteen years of age but less than seventeen years of age and the actor is at least ten years older than the victim and is not the spouse of the victim

So I'm not sure that Spell "fits" as a sexual predator.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I agree that they may have buried Sherry. I kind of doubt the hole would be very deep since the ground is pretty hard. I think the main thing that would deter landowners from searching right now would be snow on the ground. I have no idea if there's any snow on the ground in those counties right now, but I could picture a landowner not bothering to look until the snow melts.

I think so too. But I was just wondering, when you're digging in that climate does it become easier or harder to do so as you get deeper?

I'd think they wouldn't want to spend that much time laboring in those conditions, but it just occurred to me that we don't know how long they spent digging. ETA: If they were on a deserted property and were confident they were out in the middle of nowhere as they say.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Looking at The Weather Channel it doesn't look like there has been much snow. I can't look at the counties though. When I type in a county it gives me a city within the county

It is very cold though. The highs aren't aren't that horribly horrible, but the lows........ eek!

 

[maggieo]

I agree, Waters isn't the bulb in the box. Maybe I should have said that I had considered the possibility that Spell was especially challenged... more so than your average criminal, perhaps clinically stupid.

I think they're both really stupid. I think this is a stupid, stupid, pointless crime -- apart from the fact that it's evil and cruel and devastating to the family. Put coldly: exactly how much did they expect to gain from this, for the risk? If they were serial killers, you know, pure evil driven by mysterious drives, then maybe it would make sense. But these were a couple of stupid losers who couldn't see two minutes into the future -- they turned on each other, and gained what? Not freaking much.

There is no way, imho, that either of them had a shovel in the car or even, I think, had the wherewithal to find one. If they actually buried her, they might have bought a shovel from a store. I hope WalMart is checking tapes. But I bet they just threw her out somewhere, maybe covered her with debris. These guys couldn't plan their own breakfast.