Names of Jurors just Released

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True..

The government has successfully requested anonymous juries in past cases involving terrorism and organized crime...and.....Defense lawyers, meanwhile, have contended.. that such measures lead jurors to believe that a defendant must be dangerous, undermining the presumption of innocence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/27/nyregion/27hashmi.html

BBM.

Hm. That hadn't occurred to me, but it's a good point. I think it would depend on how it was done. I don't think most people know, going in to jury duty, that their names will be available to the public. I think it's one thing if the court simply goes about its normal activities, and seals the record of their names. It's entirely another to make a big announcement at the start of the trial that they will be completely anonymous due to danger. The character and past crimes of a defendant rarely are able to come in as evidence during a trial because of its prejudicial nature. Basically telling jurors they are at risk would be prejudicial, now that I think about it.
 
I'll admit, I still get Google alerts on the case. I read the headlines and promptly delete them. I have had any number of chances to see the names and I really don't care enough to look. I just think of them as the "Pinellas 12" and move on to something that interests me.
 
I have to agree to a point with thedevilsadvocate as to why the jury found NG.

I followed this case from the beginning, but I only read the doc dumps, I did not watch all of the interviews with JB, etc regarding the case. I was aware that the sentiment on here was that he was totally full of it and sleazy, but I had not seen much of him at all until the trial.

During the trial, I felt that JB did a good job of covering up his sleaze and seeming friendly and genuine and not like a complete moron like he seems to appear in his media appearances. The jury had no reason not to trust him, like we did.

Also I feel that the state made a HUGE deal about the lying and the defense said, "Yeah, she lied, so what, she lies about everything." I think it helped their credibility with the jury. In reality, we had months and months and MONTHS of the defense saying "no, she's not lying, it's the truth, it happened just like she said...er, no, it happened THIS way, like she said the next time." IMO, this was one of the keys to the defense winning this case, because the jury didn't see all of the interviews that went on and on and on of the As and the defense lying.

That and the fact the defense made GA look like a total liar on the stand. The arguing over the gas cans was so nerve wracking! I was sitting there thinking "Just answer the question George!" It made him completely unlikeable, and seem completely unreasonable.

After 3 years, the defense team still didn't have well....a defense. So, they had to "make one". They studied EVERY video, newspaper article, message board, blog, etc.....and they put one together they "thought" would work. They used CA's "The latest rumor is Caylee drowned". Then, they added to it, the jail tapes were released, Casey's little "secrets" supposedly revealed about her brother & if her memory serves her right, maybe even her Dad. Add that to the supposed affair of GA, his suicide attempt saying all those things they used to spin & a little help from LA so his name wouldn't be used, add CA's perjury & hey, by darn, they've got a defense.....Baez throws it out there in his OS and that's it.

It's like when a football team has 2 really great quarterbacks (like LSU), you've got a big game coming up but one of the qb's has had some sort of illness. He's gonna play in the game along with the other one but you aren't gonna let the media or the other team know this.....because then they'd have time to prepare for both qb's.....the element of surprise. It worked for him.....go figure!:banghead:
 
In the evidence and document threads here on WS, there were many spirited, sometimes heated debates over what certain evidence would prove or disprove during the trial. Most of these debates were triggered by research done by WS'ers, not by what the media had reported. As a participant in many of these spirited debates, there was a lot of evidence in the docs that could have been interpreted as exculpatory, but could also have been interpreted on not being exculpatory. That is why the debates became circular. The majority usually interpreted the evidence to either be inculpatory, or basically irrelevant.

One piece of evidence in the docs was the adipocere like substance found on the tissues/napkins in the white trash bag from the trunk of the Pontiac. The media usually called it adipocere, stating it as fact, although occasionally some reported it was an adipocere like substance. Basically, the media was saying, because adipocere was found on these napkins/tissues, and adipocere comes from a decomposing body, Caylee was in the trunk, and KC was therefore guilty. The general public heard and read this for 3 years. In court however, things were different. In court the jurors heard that this was an adipocere like substance, and were told what this adipocere like substance consisted of. The defense then showed that cheese consisted of the same substances that this adipocere like substance consisted of. The arguments in court were much more technical, but basically, the prosecution could have had done further testing on the adipocere like substance to remove any doubt as to whether it was indeed adipocere, or if it was just a substance that was like adipocere. The prosecution did not have the further testing done, and so, in the courtroom, the defense was able to raise reasonable doubt to that part of the prosecutions case. In the eyes of the jurors, maybe it was adipocere, and maybe it wasn't, and in case of a tie, they are instructed lean towards the defendant, which they did.

The smell of death, the chloroform levels, the hair with apparent decomp, the heart shaped sticker, etc. etc. were all in the docs released via the Sunshine Law. The way an individual interpreted whether this evidence was inculpatory or exculpatory was basically a matter of opinion. The way the media interpreted nearly all of the evidence, in their opinions, was presented as inculpatory.

The jurors heard the defense experts rebutt the prosecutions experts. The media reported that the defense experts were turned into prosecution witnesses by JA. That was the opinion of the media, but that obviously was not the opinion of the jurors. The jurors, by finding a not guilty verdict on the first three counts, showed their opinion was the prosecution did not prove KC's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

These jurors looked only at what was presented, and the media watched these jurors, and reported on what the media thought the jury was thinking. The media thought wrong in their assessment of what the jurors were thinking. Now the jurors have had their names released, so if they chose to speak, I hope it is live, so the media doesn't have the chance to edit and shape what the jurors have to say.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.


sniped & bolded by me!!

The jurors didn't appear to be thinking about anything. They seemed uninterested through the entire thing. Of course, maybe they felt like CA did, just a shell & what were we gonna do with it anyway?? Sorry, but I sooooo disagree with you.
 
I do not forget these things. I just think its possible for a person to be mature and answer questions directly when they dislike greatly the person posing the question. I think you are right though...he was trying not to contradict his earlier statements and it showed...to us. To the jury it looked like he was overly cautious in his speech, looking suspicious. Mainly, though, he kept saying he didnt understand what was being asked, or saying he was answering a question when he was not. He kept making JB repeat himself and I believe he even said that JB was trying to trick him or something to that effect that came across as suspicious as well. It was very clear what questions JB was asking and GA kept acting like he could not understand. It was ridiculous and childish.

I think the DT played GA masterfully. Easily provoked, easily implicated. The DT said GA knew what happened and covered it up (just like kc) and GA gave the jury no reason to think otherwise.

No, GA was not on trial. But the defense did a decent job of saying it was possibly him. He had no motive...according to what the state presented at trial, neither did KC. KC lied and lied,, and so did GA. The state attempted to paint the other As as normal people, and this probably did not help their cause either because they all looked crazy during the trial. If GA knew about Caylee's death, how did he go to work afterwards all normal?? The same can be said about KC renting movies with TL.

I personally hate the decision the jury made, and I think they could have found her guilty. But they did not. I personally wish she had gotten the DP. I felt the entire trial that the state was presenting one case, the DT was presenting another, and the state just kind of ignored what the DT threw out there, which I feel was a mistake.

I've often wondered how I'd react if I were George, my grandaughter killed by my daughter, her Attorney is grilling me about absolute lies that were coming from probably her (to save her own skin). And, being married to CA who was the main reason behind creating this monster to begin with, who would never allow me to disipline, let alone speak to KC about the suspicians I had. A daughter who not only was accusing me of the worst possible thing she could even though all the other stories she'd told had been about Lee...but, he wasn't even being questioned of the possibility. A daughter who hired this lawyer out of nowhere & was allowing all this to happen...a daughter who KNEW the truth about my grandaughter but refused to share that info with her family who had supported her & her daughter...rarely asking for anything in return. Being grilled by someone that I loathe....and all of this on Primetime, National television with what, millions of people watching & listening to the horrid things they were saying about me......I can't promise I would have done anything differently than George...except, whomever coached him did a good job because it would have been very hard not to punch him as I was leaving the stand if he gave me that smirk! :furious:
 
After 3 years, the defense team still didn't have well....a defense. So, they had to "make one". They studied EVERY video, newspaper article, message board, blog, etc.....and they put one together they "thought" would work. They used CA's "The latest rumor is Caylee drowned". Then, they added to it, the jail tapes were released, Casey's little "secrets" supposedly revealed about her brother & if her memory serves her right, maybe even her Dad. Add that to the supposed affair of GA, his suicide attempt saying all those things they used to spin & a little help from LA so his name wouldn't be used, add CA's perjury & hey, by darn, they've got a defense.....Baez throws it out there in his OS and that's it.
It's like when a football team has 2 really great quarterbacks (like LSU), you've got a big game coming up but one of the qb's has had some sort of illness. He's gonna play in the game along with the other one but you aren't gonna let the media or the other team know this.....because then they'd have time to prepare for both qb's.....the element of surprise. It worked for him.....go figure!:banghead:

BBM

I agree totally about the "defense" and I use the term loosley. First and foremost Jose Baez seems VERY dependant on a client that is willing to lie all the way to the final hour. The drowning idea was first put forth by Yuri Mellich when he was interviewing Casey. He was trying to give her a way to admit that indeed there was a terrible accident. Then the jailhouse visit where CA said "They said Caylee drowned in the pool". Hmmm. Let's jot that one down as a possible theory." Then the jailhouse letters to "Cookie" where Casey went about building her own case. Whether this was at the direction of Baez, who knows? So now we have the other part of the OS. Casey was molested by male family members. Hmmmmm jot that down. Then he put GA on the hotseat about the affair and the gas cans and George denied it, making him look like a liar to the jury. Then put CA on the stand to perjure herself to top off the huge heap of lies already put forth.

It took three years, but Jose concocted his opening statement - all built on lies. The entire family lied. Now we are supposed to be shocked and amazed that Casey is such a liar. The apple truly did not fall far from the tree. It was so glaringly apparent that her parents lied on the stand, and her attorney very dramatically, yet amateurishly lied in his opening statement. That is not a record to be proud of in any respect. "Oh she died in the early morning hours, er... no afternoon hours, make that the early morning hours." A class of sixth graders would have been able to see through that. Maybe the jurors were napping during that display. Or planning a vacation. Or both.
 
I feel that jurors hearing any case in our country should have the absolute right to remain anonymous. We are all potential jurors. Sometimes it is a dangerous job even though it is a civic duty.

If a juror decides to go before the media, that is his/her right. However any individual juror should not have the right to release the names of the other jurors serving with him/her.

I have big issues with the Pinellas jury. They did not spend enough time reviewing evidence or request to see anything except the heart sticker. It concerns me that they may have based part of their decision on that sticker alone, and didn't request to examine more evidence. It appears from the outside looking in that they simply wanted out of there ASAP. It feels and appears all wrong considering the scope of the witnesses called and the evidence presented in this case. But their names should be irrelevant. What possible good would come from knowing their names? They are one unit to me "The Pinellas 12". I don't care to know what their individual names are.


If I were a juror, I would want the choice of whether my name was released. Also concerning the A trial jurors, I believe there was a good reason why a jury had not been sequester in almost 20 years. Some people just don't have a strong enough constitution to be taken away from their support system...jmo
 
If I were a juror, I would want the choice of whether my name was released. Also concerning the A trial jurors, I believe there was a good reason why a jury had not been sequester in almost 20 years. Some people just don't have a strong enough constitution to be taken away from their support system...jmo

Could explain why it did not take them long. There was no resistance. "All for one and one for all" type of thinking. jmo
 
You know, I for one, really appreciate the lively debate on pro/con anonymous juries. Both sides have profoundly good arguments. However, I am left with the belief that we should not have anonymous juries for all the prior arguments. What I do believe should be the case is this: Every person should have the RIGHT to refuse to sit on a jury. No reason, nada. It should be their right, knowing full well the public scrutiny that MAY follow, to choose to serve. I don't buy the argument that we would never sit a jury, trust me - there are MANY that want to sit on a jury. I despised the way HHJP cajoled and pushed those potential jurors to sit when it was clear to many of us they DID NOT WANT TO...
 
You know, I for one, really appreciate the lively debate on pro/con anonymous juries. Both sides have profoundly good arguments. However, I am left with the belief that we should not have anonymous juries for all the prior arguments. What I do believe should be the case is this: Every person should have the RIGHT to refuse to sit on a jury. No reason, nada. It should be their right, knowing full well the public scrutiny that MAY follow, to choose to serve. I don't buy the argument that we would never sit a jury, trust me - there are MANY that want to sit on a jury. I despised the way HHJP cajoled and pushed those potential jurors to sit when it was clear to many of us they DID NOT WANT TO...

and while I'm on my soap box, I think the same is true for a DP case, if someone expresses ANY concern over sitting on a DP that should be sufficient.....:maddening: We are talking about justice here, it's what sets us apart from barbarians, would you want a doctor to operate on you if he didn't "want to"??? Not me!
 
You know, I for one, really appreciate the lively debate on pro/con anonymous juries. Both sides have profoundly good arguments. However, I am left with the belief that we should not have anonymous juries for all the prior arguments. What I do believe should be the case is this: Every person should have the RIGHT to refuse to sit on a jury. No reason, nada. It should be their right, knowing full well the public scrutiny that MAY follow, to choose to serve. I don't buy the argument that we would never sit a jury, trust me - there are MANY that want to sit on a jury. I despised the way HHJP cajoled and pushed those potential jurors to sit when it was clear to many of us they DID NOT WANT TO...

In some ways I agree with you regarding the way the jurors were chosen in Pinellas - and that there were many individuals who did want to sit on the jury.

The problem with chosing those who did wilingly jump at the chance of being on the jury is determining why and did they have alternative motives - and how would one discern that?

HHJP, because of all of Baez media talk, looking for jury members who knew very little or had not followed this case at all. Quite a difficult job considering the very broad US and world exposure and interest.
 
In some ways I agree with you regarding the way the jurors were chosen in Pinellas - and that there were many individuals who did want to sit on the jury.

The problem with chosing those who did wilingly jump at the chance of being on the jury is determining why and did they have alternative motives - and how would one discern that?

HHJP, because of all of Baez media talk, looking for jury members who knew very little or had not followed this case at all. Quite a difficult job considering the very broad US and world exposure and interest.

Exactly. JB knew what he was doing when he was spewing every five minutes to the media. It didn't matter what he said, but the point was that it would wildly impact the ability to seat a proper jury when it came time to seating one. And as such the defense was able to hand pick a jury to their liking.
 
You know, I for one, really appreciate the lively debate on pro/con anonymous juries. Both sides have profoundly good arguments. However, I am left with the belief that we should not have anonymous juries for all the prior arguments. What I do believe should be the case is this: Every person should have the RIGHT to refuse to sit on a jury. No reason, nada. It should be their right, knowing full well the public scrutiny that MAY follow, to choose to serve. I don't buy the argument that we would never sit a jury, trust me - there are MANY that want to sit on a jury. I despised the way HHJP cajoled and pushed those potential jurors to sit when it was clear to many of us they DID NOT WANT TO...

The problem with what you propose is that the very people you want on that jury are those who are not interested in serving because they are truly the ones with the least bias. Those who are over eager to serve usually have formed opinions already and want a chance to "do the right thing" which could be something personal for them and not objective which is the purpose of the jury. The juror who is perfect is the one who does not want to serve but if picked will do a good job because they know it is their civil duty. Freedom does have a price but it is little to pay for what we have. Only in America would KC have been set free. Many people do not serve, ever, even though they are repeatedly called.

On death penalty cases you are given a choice. If you tell the judge you do not agree with DP and would never vote for it you will be disqualified. Or that you were 100% sure of person's guilt. That is how many potential jurors get out of being picked. And they went through a lot of people during selection. Obviously those few jurors who came forward to speak after the trial were against the DP so they were not exactly truthful when they said they would have no problem.

Maybe one way to get information about potential jurors is to send out a form 6 months prior to them being called to serve and ask them generic questions about all trials, including DP's. They're more likely to answer questions honestly if they don't know what trial's are coming up in the future.

I guess you have to do what you can afford to do at the time. A week or two off of work is doable for most. Hardship for another. Most cases that go to trial are interesting and they are a learning experience. Not all cases are like KC's and not all cases publish the names of the jurors. jmo
 
Just reading up on the twitter thread that Bob Kealing is in the ethics seminar where LDB and JA and evidently CM sans JB are keynote speakers. Very interesting in that they ALL agree that the Sunshine Laws need to be tweaked so that discovery is still accessible to the public, but AFTER the trial. It serves no purpose going out to the public and is a huge hinderance to seating a jury.
 
My question is this...For the past 3 months we have only known the names of 2 jurors and one alternate. Now the jurors names have been made public. Have we learned anything new from this action?

The debate going on is whether their names should have been released. If Judge P had choosen to keep their identities sealed would it really make any difference to the public? I can see their names, occupation, family structure. I can guess at somes age. I might be able to draw some broad opinion as to their mindset or who they might have been sympathetic towards but I get no useful information from their names.

The state and the defense both participated in choosing the jury. I remember it being reported that the student nurse changed some of her answers during jury selection in order to be accepted. If that were true wouldn't that have been an obvious reason to exclude her?

JB seems to be swimming upstream from where I sit. He wants a TH career but makes a fool out of himself everytime he opens his mouth in front of a camera. I find it VERY hard to believe reports he has a speaking engagement at Harvard. It obvious to most he has no respect for the law or the court system and very little if any knowledge of the law itself. Was this an announcement that JB made himself? If so we know we can't believe anything that comes from his mouth and why is he not still in Aruba? Does the media ever verify what he claims to be true. From what I've seen of JB, he fabricates his own reality much like someone else we know to get attention. He's a bit of a con artist..Jack of all trades...master of none. Maybe JB would do better to choose only one direction and then persue it....jmo
 
LambChop said:
--The problem with what you propose is that the very people you want on that jury are those who are not interested in serving because they are truly the ones with the least bias. Those who are over eager to serve usually have formed opinions already and want a chance to "do the right thing" which could be something personal for them and not objective which is the purpose of the jury.

I know I'm in the minority, but I'm always thrilled when a receive a jury summons, and always disappointed when I'm not chosen. I get the same warm and fuzzies for jury service as I do for voting, maybe because I consider both as opportunites to participate in our democracy.

Also, I'm sure that if I lived in Florida there would be no way I could've missed pre-trial OCA and Caylee coverage, but many states away, I sure did. I'm a news junkie and read multiple papers online daily but I typically steer clear of child-related crimes because they're just too painful.

I haven't read enough about the P-12 to know if they were willfully and uniformly uninformed about the world around them, but just saying that not being immersed in OCA pre-trial didn't make them idiots.
 
LambChop--The problem with what you propose is that the very people you want on that jury are those who are not interested in serving because they are truly the ones with the least bias. Those who are over eager to serve usually have formed opinions already and want a chance to "do the right thing" which could be something personal for them and not objective which is the purpose of the jury.

I know I'm in the minority, but I'm always thrilled when a receive a jury summons, and always disappointed when I'm not chosen. I get the same warm and fuzzies for jury service as I do for voting, maybe because I consider both as opportunites to participate in our democracy.

Also, I'm sure that if I lived in Florida there would be no way I could've missed pre-trial OCA and Caylee coverage, but many states away, I sure did. I'm a news junkie and read multiple papers online daily but I typically steer clear of child-related crimes because they're just too painful.

I haven't read enough about the P-12 to know if they were willfully and uniformly uninformed about the world around them, but just saying that not being immersed in OCA pre-trial didn't make them idiots.

Hope4More - many of us were able to watch jury selection and it was amazing how many people did not watch anything other than their local news and did not read the news on their computers and several did not even own computers....:waitasec: - definitely had the feeling we had stepped way back in time...
 
Adults under age 80 and didn't own computers?? Wow. That's highly unusual.*** Under age 60 and it's almost bizarre, and actually, I think many-most of the over- 60 crowd own computers, if nothing else to stay in touch with their families.

*** just googled- as of 2010, approx. 80% of US households own computers
 
Have been researching jury-related stuff, including the impact of jury sequestering. From a Canadian site..

"The original purpose of sequestering juries was to compel jurors to reach a verdict quickly by denying them water and food." No need to use drastic measures to rush the P-12, eh?
 
Adults under age 80 and didn't own computers?? Wow. That's highly unusual.*** Under age 60 and it's almost bizarre, and actually, I think many-most of the over- 60 crowd own computers, if nothing else to stay in touch with their families.

*** just googled- as of 2010, approx. 80% of US households own computers

And a couple of the younger people who were technical said they had no interest at all in the news or newspapers - never read them. Went on to Facebook or their particular interest sites or to play games but that was it. Really quite mind boggling to a nosey parker like me who has to read about everything...:innocent:
 
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