NC NC - Faith Hedgepeth, 19, UNC student, Chapel Hill, 7 Sept 2012 #1

[Boodles]

I was in college decades ago, and even back then it was drilled into our heads "lock your doors," even if just going down the hall to another dorm room. When moving on to apartment living, we kept the doors locked. For KR to remember that she left the door unlocked at around 4am with a sleeping roommate inside is clearly making an excuse to support the "someone must have came in" theory. Which, to me, likely means that no one (unexpectedly) came in.

I have listened to the 911 call many times, including again recently after rewatching 20/20 (or was it Dateline or 48 Hours? I forget). While KR and MR both have the shaky distressed little girl wobble in their voices, the pitch of MR's voice is significantly lower, so I don't have any doubt that KR's voice is that of the 911 caller. And MR was very open, candid and seemed sincerely emotional. KR hasn't spoken publicly to anyone AFAIK. Why? Fear of being caught being complicit? Fear for her own wellbeing? Idk.

KR's 911 call was, as I've said so often in this thread, bizarre. IMO, she sounds only concerned with herself, and not seemingly about her "friend" Faith, who's (quoting KR) "unresponsive." Does she call screaming? No. She calls and says (paraphrasing here) "hi, I just got home and my roommate is....unresponsive..." Which I find weird, and then her excuses, delays, etc., play out. It's just not genuine surprise and shock IMO - it seems pre-planned. I won't dissect the call and all it's hinkiness here, the transcript and recording are available from links in some of the prior posts.

As for explaining the DNA found "on Faith" and at the scene, it seems investigators have omitted a lot of information (rightly so I'm sure to protect their investigation). And it seems like there were many men/boys with whom one or both of them crossed paths. I think LE flat out said they believe Karena may not have told them everything she knows and may or may not have been telling the truth with what she has told them.

The "phenotyping" profile really throws a wrench into the logical theories. I'm just not sure I buy into that profile, or whether the profile, if valid, is that of the killer or just one of the many people with whom one or both of them may have crossed paths.

I wish somebody who knows more would spill what they know to LE.

 

[Simplestarz86]

Has anyone ever linked the involvement of the Judge sealing the case and his connection to a POI only mentioned by alphabets in case files? Also that judge wasnt even the judge in that district. There is mention of law school students. And someone in this thread mentioned the "how to get away with murder" theory. What was KR relationship with these high profile (lawyers,athletes)? No one's story adds up and LE dragged on investigating these ppl. Why? Did someone intentionally give them time to lawyer up, get rid of evidence, or better yet..plant it.

This is very intriguing. I have often wondered if the CI referred to in the 20/20 segment, also is the cousin of ETJ, would be protected in some way. Especially if he had extensive knowledge of criminal activity going on with drugs or guns. Or the lawyers being protected. They were to graduate 2013, IIRC. They would have probably been interning at some law firm and would've known a few well connected people.

The 4 or 5 NCCU men referred to in the unsealed documents were law students were in attendance at Thrill. They took two cars to Thrill . One of those men had met Faith the weekend before. He at first denies a DNA test saying he touched her that night, he eventually does. He is seen walking out of the club with Faith at 2:06AM. He also has a strange reaction to Faith's photo when an officer shows him we. ( I do not know if this was a graphic picture or not) To my knowledge Karena and Faith didn't really know the other men or at least well. I don't know how well Karena knew him or knew of him either considering Faith had met him the weekend prior. The athlete had some sort of a relationship with Karena.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Boodles]

Has anyone ever linked the involvement of the Judge sealing the case and his connection to a POI only mentioned by alphabets in case files? Also that judge wasnt even the judge in that district. There is mention of law school students. And someone in this thread mentioned the "how to get away with murder" theory. What was KR relationship with these high profile (lawyers,athletes)? No one's story adds up and LE dragged on investigating these ppl. Why? Did someone intentionally give them time to lawyer up, get rid of evidence, or better yet..plant it.

Who are you referring to? (How else would we know if the judge and said POI are linked?). As to districts, are you referring to Orange County vs Durham county? This case involves both. Chapel Hill PD (Orange county) is the investigating agency. I believe the apartment is in Durham county however. Not sure why both counties are involved.

I don't think there's any funny business going on between judges/ LE and persons of interest. I just think LE can't arrest anyone yet because they don't have enough evidence to meet the "beyond a reasonable doubt" threshold.

 

[WebWoman]

Who are you referring to? (How else would we know if the judge and said POI are linked?). As to districts, are you referring to Orange County vs Durham county? This case involves both. Chapel Hill PD (Orange county) is the investigating agency. I believe the apartment is in Durham county however. Not sure why both counties are involved.

I don't think there's any funny business going on between judges/ LE and persons of interest. I just think LE can't arrest anyone yet because they don't have enough evidence to meet the "beyond a reasonable doubt" threshold.

There sure does seem to be funny business going on. And they don't need r meet a beyond a reasonable doubt threshold to arrest. There are many cases tried when the (assumed to be) deceased body isn't even found yet. That's for a jury to determine.

As as far as I've read Karina didn't have a habit of leaving the door unlocked and when that happens how would she have remembered beforehand that she had left it unlocked if it was accidental? Plus a stranger wouldn't write a personal note about jealousy let alone a guy that's girl stuff.

Doesn't Faith belong to an Indian tribe? What's their take on it and how involved have they been in trying to solve this? Usually they're all over something high profile about a member.

 

[CADwrest]

And they don't need r meet a beyond a reasonable doubt threshold to arrest. There are many cases tried when the (assumed to be) deceased body isn't even found yet. That's for a jury to determine.

That’s technically true, but police can only hold a person for a short time without charging them with something. A prosecutor has to decide if there’s enough evidence against that suspect to get an indictment and win a trial. And a judge actually can prevent a decision from going to the jury if they think certain thresholds weren’t met during the trial.


In cases without a body, there’s usually plenty of evidence that 1) the victim is dead and 2) that the suspect killed them. In this case, it’s the opposite: We have a body, but there's no incontrovertible evidence pointing to any known suspect.


In this case, if the DNA in the bedroom matched one of the suspects, and there was blood all over the bedroom, but Faith’s body was missing and couldn’t be found, I think you’d be right: Someone would have gone to jail years ago.

 

[Boodles]

What funny business is going on? Between judges and POI's? I really don't know what you're talking about.

Sure you only need probable cause to arrest, but without proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it would be a mistake to take it to court. The DA wouldn't even take the case, at least at this point in this case. Plus, to arrest someone prematurely (i.e., you don't yet have enough to prove your case to a jury), you tip your hand to suspects/POI/.

While it seems obvious, I don't necessarily assume that DNA found on the note is that of the killer, although it probably is. What if, for example, the note was written before and was then put at the scene when she was killed? What if it's a red herring? I'm still open to such possibilities, because things don't make sense in my mind as they appear.

 

[Skigirl]

What funny business is going on? Between judges and POI's? I really don't know what you're talking about.

Sure you only need probable cause to arrest, but without proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it would be a mistake to take it to court. The DA wouldn't even take the case, at least at this point in this case. Plus, to arrest someone prematurely (i.e., you don't yet have enough to prove your case to a jury), you tip your hand to suspects/POI/.

While it seems obvious, I don't necessarily assume that DNA found on the note is that of the killer, although it probably is. What if, for example, the note was written before and was then put at the scene when she was killed? What if it's a red herring? I'm still open to such possibilities, because things don't make sense in my mind as they appear.

To your point, I have wondered if someone from Time-Out was the killer, or maybe wasn't the killer but was the source of the semen and the DNA on the bag? Maybe someone who worked there who she used to chat with when she went in for food? Someone who might look like the DNA "composite drawing"?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[CADwrest]

To your point, I have wondered if someone from Time-Out was the killer, or maybe wasn't the killer but was the source of the semen and the DNA on the bag? Maybe someone who worked there who she used to chat with when she went in for food? Someone who might look like the DNA "composite drawing"?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OK, so, question on that. Most of the time, I’ve seen the semen described as "on Faith" but occasionally seen it as "in" her. Do we know which it is? If the correct answer is "on", I really can’t see how it would still be there from any time earlier.

 

[WebWoman]

OK, so, question on that. Most of the time, I’ve seen the semen described as "on Faith" but occasionally seen it as "in" her. Do we know which it is? If the correct answer is "on", I really can’t see how it would still be there from any time earlier.

That's what I asked several pages ago. If it was inside of her, semen can survive up to a week or longer in some cases and it could have nothing to do with this case. Also what if she wasn't on birth control and was pregnant. Did they test for that? If it was on her, where exactly? It could have been taken from a used condom for all we know and planted on her. KR could have had a quickie at the nightclub or found a used condom in the bathroom and spread it on her as a red herring for all we know. Not so far fetched - many women take used condoms to impregnate themselves and using it in a way to make her look as a *advertiser censored* in revenge as her parting last memory could be a possibility to destroy her image considering she was burning with jealousy of her, on top of throwing a wrench in the investigation, all imo. And for the record I don't think she was a s- but just throwing an idea of a motive.

On another note, once a case goes cold I think it should be mandatory for LE to release any info they have the public isn't privy to in an effort to help solve the case vs nothing else moving forward. This case remaining unsolved is extremely disturbing to me.

 

[Simplestarz86]

OK, so, question on that. Most of the time, I’ve seen the semen described as "on Faith" but occasionally seen it as "in" her. Do we know which it is? If the correct answer is "on", I really can’t see how it would still be there from any time earlier.

I cannot confirm the placement of semen. It took a long time for law enforcement to even acknowledge a sexual assault...even now they answer that question with, "more likely than not she was raped," there hasn't been a definitive answer. The autopsy doesn't specify if semen was found on or in her. It only says swabs were taken as part of a rape kit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[WebWoman]

I cannot confirm the placement of semen. It took a long time for law enforcement to even acknowledge a sexual assault...even now they answer that question with, "more likely than not she was raped," there hasn't been a definitive answer. The autopsy doesn't specify if semen was found on or in her. It only says swabs were taken as part of a rape kit.

That's another example of funny business imo. It's like they refuse to believe it wasn't done by a man who raped her for sexual reasons like a serial killer or typical reason a college girl gets murdered and are trying to conform it into that idea even when there's no semen, even giving the false impression that there might be semen when maybe there isn't since we don't know imo all the while ignoring the elephant in the room aka the roommate, imo.

 

[Skigirl]

So, if we set aside the idea that Karena is responsible, which is the end node of one part of the decision tree, and we focus on other branches for a little while, there are a couple things that have been niggling at me.

1) Some of the little notes left by customers at Faith's workplace that Faith posted on her social media accounts. Could one of those people be an admirer who might try to connect with Faith?
2) We have heard almost nothing about co-workers at Red Robin. I worked at a place like that, and most of those friendships were contained within the restaurant, but you do tend to spend a lot of time with those folks/the job can be intense/there is lots of chatting and occasional romance and there is usually some interpersonal drama in the mix. We have heard very little about the people she worked with. Did LE look there at all? I don't remember much, if anything, from the released documents. Most of the focus seems to have been on The Thrill and ETJ and friends.
3) On the TV episode that I posted about earlier, the LE officer whom they interviewed seemed to be *very* carefully choosing her words when she spoke of Faith's location in the apartment when Rosario left. To paraphrase, she said that Faith was believed to be in the bedroom, in bed. Is there something she could have been trying to avoid disclosing? That there was another individual? That they aren't sure she was there? I'm coming up blank other than those two possibilities.
4) Another thing the same LE officer said was that she thought that Karena might not be disclosing everything she knows. I think she even went as far as to say that Karena was not a person of interest (I need to rewatch that segment... I linked to it upthread but it's been some time since I've watched it). So, if we set aside the idea that what she knows is that she murdered Faith, what else might she know that she's not disclosing? Could it be something as simple as that Karena at first didn't disclose something that she knew about Faith that she knew Faith wouldn't want people to know (e.g., that Faith had been sleeping with someone that Karena knew Faith wouldn't want someone to know about, or that Karena knew someone in their circle would be upset about?) Is it possible that she told a little bit of a fib or withheld information, almost reflexively early on...and then did not want her story to be inconsistent, so she just kept with her original story, even realizing that fibbing at first was a mistake? One thing we know from the literature on memory and eyewitness testimony is that people do strive for consistency in their story-telling.

Just some thoughts on a Wednesday morning.

 

[CADwrest]

So, if we set aside the idea that Karena is responsible, which is the end node of one part of the decision tree, and we focus on other branches for a little while, there are a couple things that have been niggling at me

-Snipped-

4) Another thing the same LE officer said was that she thought that Karena might not be disclosing everything she knows. I think she even went as far as to say that Karena was not a person of interest (I need to rewatch that segment... I linked to it upthread but it's been some time since I've watched it). So, if we set aside the idea that what she knows is that she murdered Faith, what else might she know that she's not disclosing? Could it be something as simple as that Karena at first didn't disclose something that she knew about Faith that she knew Faith wouldn't want people to know (e.g., that Faith had been sleeping with someone that Karena knew Faith wouldn't want someone to know about, or that Karena knew someone in their circle would be upset about?) Is it possible that she told a little bit of a fib or withheld information, almost reflexively early on...and then did not want her story to be inconsistent, so she just kept with her original story, even realizing that fibbing at first was a mistake? One thing we know from the literature on memory and eyewitness testimony is that people do strive for consistency in their story-telling.

Just some thoughts on a Wednesday morning.

I watched that 20/20 segment just the other day. If I remember correctly, that was the part when the investigator disclosed that they’d talked to Rosario 10 times during the investigation, and the reporter asked if they believed what she’d told them. I think at that point the investigator responded "We’re continuing to investigate that."
As is typical, one can read that as anything from "There’s no part of this case we’re taking for granted" to "No, we don’t believe her".

 

[Webthrush]

a few things re: Karena…
1) I’ve long felt this case was ‘botched’ in the first 48-72 hrs. when police focused almost exclusively on Karena’s ex-bf Eriq… because there was such damning circumstantial evidence against him… seemed like an open/closed case. But when that fell apart, they may have already missed some other information and other leads. (jmo)

2) I don’t buy into the circumstantial points people use to tie KR to the crime scene — but simply agree with LE that the perp is a MALE (or males) who left plenty of DNA at the scene. Police have interviewed KR at least 10 times and say she cooperated (while admitting she may know more than what she’s told them). My one concern about her is that the 20/20 episode pinpoints the male perp as Latino and KR likely had a large circle of Latino friends (…could she be uninvolved in the crime but covering/protecting one of them? I don’t know).

3) on a sidenote, I too have always found the law student angle interesting… though probably just coincidence that so many students of the law from same school are involved in this very stymied case. They just all happen to party at the Thrill.
Also, I believe police DID investigate quite widely (as much as they could) the employees & customers who Faith had contact with at the Red Robin… and came up empty (as well as males at her apt. complex and at UNC -- her entire circle of male acquaintances seem to have been checked out pretty thoroughly).

I’ll be very anxious to see what if anything LE has to say about the whole Latino male angle come this September anniversary.

 

[CADwrest]

3) On the TV episode that I posted about earlier, the LE officer whom they interviewed seemed to be *very* carefully choosing her words when she spoke of Faith's location in the apartment when Rosario left. To paraphrase, she said that Faith was believed to be in the bedroom, in bed. Is there something she could have been trying to avoid disclosing? That there was another individual? That they aren't sure she was there? I'm coming up blank other than those two possibilities.

The police seem incredibly cautious whenever they say anything about this case. They very seldom make unequivocal statements about it. Just MOO, but I think they’re embarrassed it hasn’t been solved, don’t have a clear idea of how to proceed, and so don’t want to make it worse by putting something out there that’s later shown to be wrong.


I think couching it in this way probably means that Karena last interacted with Faith when she went into the bedroom and closed the door, but perhaps Karena went into the bathroom to freshen up before her ride got there and wasn’t observing the apartment. That leaves a small possibility that either Faith left and Karena didn’t know about it, or that someone entered the apartment and the bedroom without her knowledge. That probably means that Karena did not say goodbye when she left, or at least didn’t hear a response.


I don’t think it means that Karena had knowledge that someone was in the bedroom with Faith. For one thing, taking the 911 call at face value, Karena has to bring herself around to the possibility that someone else was there, which she wouldn’t if she knew Faith had company when she left. For another, even if Karena didn’t know who he was, that person would have been suspect #1 when Faith was found dead, not ETJ and the men from the Thrill.

 

[Skigirl]

The police seem incredibly cautious whenever they say anything about this case. They very seldom make unequivocal statements about it. Just MOO, but I think they’re embarrassed it hasn’t been solved, don’t have a clear idea of how to proceed, and so don’t want to make it worse by putting something out there that’s later shown to be wrong.


I think couching it in this way probably means that Karena last interacted with Faith when she went into the bedroom and closed the door, but perhaps Karena went into the bathroom to freshen up before her ride got there and wasn’t observing the apartment. That leaves a small possibility that either Faith left and Karena didn’t know about it, or that someone entered the apartment and the bedroom without her knowledge. That probably means that Karena did not say goodbye when she left, or at least didn’t hear a response.


I don’t think it means that Karena had knowledge that someone was in the bedroom with Faith. For one thing, taking the 911 call at face value, Karena has to bring herself around to the possibility that someone else was there, which she wouldn’t if she knew Faith had company when she left. For another, even if Karena didn’t know who he was, that person would have been suspect #1 when Faith was found dead, not ETJ and the men from the Thrill.

A sort of unrelated observation, but your post about the 911 call reminded me of KR's statement, "She's not like this." Such an unusual thing to say. I wonder what the thought process behind that phrase was.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[CADwrest]

A sort of unrelated observation, but your post about the 911 call reminded me of KR's statement, "She's not like this." Such an unusual thing to say. I wonder what the thought process behind that phrase was.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My take on that is that she just noticed that Faith is almost naked, and is saying she doesn’t know her to sleep that way.

 

[thref23]

Randomly chiming in...

There seem to be a number of puzzle pieces here. Unfortunately, until the bigger picture starts to show, pieces to the puzzle can be every bit as misleading as they can be insightful. I think it's beneficial to go back to the beginning of the investigation, and assume nothing is known about what may have happened.

I don't know if this rule applies here since Faith had a roommate, but when a woman who lives alone, is killed inside her residence and the body is left inside her residence, it seems the perp is usually a neighbor (often someone with a line of sight view), someone who has recently spent time at a neighbor's residence, a neighborhood peep, or a contractor who has recently worked at the residence. It's usually a crime of convenience (at least to some effect) with the perp's opportunity centering around the victim's residence. The one constant seems to be that the victim usually does not know the perp beyond in passing. It isn't common - but also isn't uncommon - for the perp to break into the residence while no one is home, and hide. It would be uncommon for there to be more than one perp, unless perhaps robbery was a primary motive. I have no source for this but it starts becoming obvious if you watch Forensic Files or what not.

Again, Faith had a roommate, but the perp still probably had to have a means of knowing that she was alone. The perp was careless about leaving behind evidence - even though it would seem he had time to clean up. Either he was not aware that he had time to clean up, he had to be somewhere, or he just didn't care about cleaning up, perhaps because he did not expect to come under suspicion.

If you ask me to guess what happened - I'd say the perp was hiding in KR's room before KR left the apartment, had been in the apartment before they returned from The Thrill. KR leaves, he thinks he can leave his hiding spot, Faith hears something and enters KR's bedroom to check it out. That is why her body is found in KR's bedroom.

This scenario fits with the note, too, IMO. I don't know if it was supposed to say "I'm not stupid, ***** you jealous" or "I'm not stupid jealous *****" or something else. I presume it was left to taunt KR, because that what makes sense, unless it was left to throw off the investigation, in which case why not go into more detail. The perp wouldn't have to know her, in fact if he did know her well he probably wouldn't want to risk giving away his identity by leaving such a note, he would have simply have had to overhear some things while hidden in a closet or under a bed.

Also, KR had gotten out of an abusive relationship, may have habitually felt guilty for no reason, gradually realized that her roommate/friend had been brutally murdered after realizing that her bedroom had been wrecked, and it may have even occurred to her that the perp might have meant harm to her as well or instead. It would be suspicious if she sounded like she had her wits about her. You know how you would react to that situation? You probably don't.

 

[Indigi]

The judge that sealed it was from neither of the connected counties but did have a professional relationship with one if the law school students.

On another note MR doesn't seem believable on the 20/20 episode as she tries to downplay herself. Anyone can see from her SM that she applies much more attention to her outward appearance. IMO her and KR know much more about the murder. It is also obvious that KR is jealous or maybe even obsessed with Faith. She tried to dress like her and do her hair the same in many photos and the video from Thrill. She was jealous over boys and possibly even the fact that Faith had so many other friends because she had attended a sorority rush event earlier that evening. KR needs a DNA test compared to the DNA found in the crime scene.

 

[Whiskers16]

I went back and read the 100+ pages of released (redacted) documents. What stood out to me is that there are fishy details surrounding almost everyone mentioned in those pages.

ETJ texted and tweeted about forgiving him for what he's about to do, and posted a phrase about the women who will wish him dead.

JB's phone pinged off the tower around the time KR left the apartment. And I believe he refused to give DNA although I can't recall if he was ordered to.

Another person reacted strangely to being shown FH's picture, and parts of his story relating to Thrill conflicted with others.

A Red Robin coworker was mentioned and it stated he had just been released from jail when officers were trying to locate him.

Another person drove off when he saw the detective at his door. He had scheduled a meeting with him, then refused to be interviewed.

Another person refused to give DNA willingly because he thinks he touched her that night.

At one point I got real neurotic about this case and made a spreadsheet listing out all the redactions I had figured out, timeline, SWs, etc. But I haven't looked at it lately so I'm drawing some blanks.