Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery - #2

[Sleuther87]

Thanks for the apology. I don't like misinformation.

Another fun fact from Jodi's DUI trial (where her BAC was .285) - according to Griesbach, Steven Avery committed perjury by testifying that he was the one driving.

 

[Safeguard]

Thanks for the apology. I don't like misinformation.

Another fun fact from Jodi's DUI trial (where her BAC was .285) - according to Griesbach, Steven Avery committed perjury by testifying that he was the one driving.

You must be a lot of fun at parties.

 

[Sleuther87]

You must be a lot of fun at parties.

Especially when my BAC is .285

 

[Juan23]

So many of you believe that Colborn's lying about finding the Rav4 based on his reactions in that one scene. Do you realize that some of his reactions in that scene are edited in?https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/4044e7/proof_that_colborns_reaction_is_edited/

I posted early on in the first thread about how fishy it was that he called in to run a plate and that it seemed to me that he was looking right at the car and even asked if it was a 99 rav4. His reactions did not give me that impression, his voice on the tape did.Another thing that has me puzzled about that recording of the call was when he asked for confirmation if it was a 1999. The majority of people (even cops) that are physically looking at a car can not tell the year just by looking at it.

 

[Safeguard]

http://www.thewrap.com/is-making-a-murderer-heroic-journalism-or-a-hack-job-the-experts-weigh-in/
"Is ‘Making a Murderer’ Heroic Journalism or a Hack Job? The Experts Weigh In"

 

[MaxManning]

You know, the way the distanced themselves when Avery was charged? And now, that he has all of these supporters? It's hard for me to believe they're actually doing it for altruistic reasons. Importantly, what about Brendan?

Exactly my thoughts, especially regarding brendan.

I understand that Steve is at the heart of this whole thing, but I think most of us have zero doubt about brendan being coerced into multiple false confessions. There was zero physical evidence linking him to the crime.

So it does make me shake my head when Steve is the primary focus, when I still have some level of doubt about his innocence.

 

[stephsb]

Exactly my thoughts, especially regarding brendan.

I understand that Steve is at the heart of this whole thing, but I think most of us have zero doubt about brendan being coerced into multiple false confessions. There was zero physical evidence linking him to the crime.

So it does make me shake my head when Steve is the primary focus, when I still have some level of doubt about his innocence.

Brendan is represented by Robert Dvorak (his WI attorney for years) and two Chicago based attorneys from Northwestern Univ's Center for Wrongfully Convicted Youth, so he is getting great representation as well.

I see what you are saying about Dassey not being the focus and agree. It is such an absolute tragedy that he remains behind bars.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MaxManning]

Pretty much everything in the Dassey confession is garbage, because he was just repeating information that was fed to him. They had no idea that her throat was cut and if she was sexually assaulted, that was information Brendan offered when pushed. As for the sweat, I believe that may have also been fed to him or he was pushed to give that kind of information, but I'll check his statements and make sure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think this aspect is very clear.

I guess for myself, the question is still whether there is any truth in Brendan's statements to his mom and cousin kayla.

Kayla tells her guidance counselor that brendan is crying and mentions body parts in a fire. she later recants.

Brendan tells his mother upon being questioned about his bleached pants, that he was helping steve clean his garage floor.


So, these are really the only two statements that I regard as potentially true in regards to Brendan. Neither proves he was KNOWINGLY involved in the murder, if steve did kill her.

These statements were not originated via police coercion, so that's why I regard them as potential truth.

Not convinced on the Kayla statement as I think kids gossip and they likely all knew about the case and the burning of the body. So a kid could get attention by saying they know something. I don't think it's crazy to suggest that.


But I personally believe that Brendan did clean steve's garage floor that night with bleach. Doesn't mean it was TH's blood. But I believe it to be truth, that he cleaned something off that floor that night.


Sadly, now that Brendan has given seemingly hundreds of versions of that night, it's hard to know what the truth is about the cleaning of the floor. Was it a deer's blood ? Was it transmission fluid or something else that came from a car ?

either way, I am going to guess that 99% of people who have witnessed transcripts of the dassey interviews and seen information on this thread that he was fed things to say and mentally manipulated, believe 100% that nothing about those interviews can be trusted.


But whether Barb Janda or Kayla's words can be trusted is something that likely is more in contention in the minds of many, not just myself.

 

[Aleph]

Personally I think SA has the traits of a psychopath. Psychopaths will do whatever they feel entitled to do to get even when they feel they have been wronged. Many psychopaths are behavior deceivers because they are devoid of real emotions inside. They can pretend to be whatever they need to be at the time.

I think he did believe he was 10 feet tall and bullet proof after being exonerated and the lawsuit.

But I also think he seethed both in prison and out for being locked away for 18 years. He thought he was entitled to rape a young woman since he already served time for it. I also think he felt the police would be too fearful to arrest him again after what happened previously.

Once he had raped TH he knew he had to murder her in order to keep her mouth shut and that way he could say he was framed/innocent and the young woman he raped and murdered wouldn't ever be able to tell a soul what he did to her.

IMO

Respectfully, what is the evidence for this? What did he do that suggests that he was feeling this way?

 

[TheDuchess]

I think this aspect is very clear.

I guess for myself, the question is still whether there is any truth in Brendan's statements to his mom and cousin kayla.

Kayla tells her guidance counselor that brendan is crying and mentions body parts in a fire. she later recants.

Brendan tells his mother upon being questioned about his bleached pants, that he was helping steve clean his garage floor.


So, these are really the only two statements that I regard as potentially true in regards to Brendan. Neither proves he was KNOWINGLY involved in the murder, if steve did kill her.

These statements were not originated via police coercion, so that's why I regard them as potential truth.

Not convinced on the Kayla statement as I think kids gossip and they likely all knew about the case and the burning of the body. So a kid could get attention by saying they know something. I don't think it's crazy to suggest that.


But I personally believe that Brendan did clean steve's garage floor that night with bleach. Doesn't mean it was TH's blood. But I believe it to be truth, that he cleaned something off that floor that night.


Sadly, now that Brendan has given seemingly hundreds of versions of that night, it's hard to know what the truth is about the cleaning of the floor. Was it a deer's blood ? Was it transmission fluid or something else that came from a car ?

either way, I am going to guess that 99% of people who have witnessed transcripts of the dassey interviews and seen information on this thread that he was fed things to say and mentally manipulated, believe 100% that nothing about those interviews can be trusted.


But whether Barb Janda or Kayla's words can be trusted is something that likely is more in contention in the minds of many, not just myself.

I was thinking about Brendan and his "story" and how and why he came up with what he did and thought about how he may have come up with some of this stuff. Now think about a boy with the mentality of a 4th grader in the body of a 16 year old. I would imagine there to be a lot of angst inside of his mind. Shy, awkward, having just been dumped by his first girlfriend.

Now imagine Brendan's growing up with his uncle Steve in prison his whole life. He never knew his uncle until he was released from prison and moved next door. I am sure he had heard a lot of crazy stuff at school about his uncle. And now here he is with his uncle back in jail for a horrendous crime.

So here you have this kid who spends most of his time playing PS2 and watching TV. I can imagine the thoughts that may have been swirling in his confused mind. Perhaps he had nightmares about it. Perhaps he had imagined what had happened that night and how his uncle may have done such a horrible thing. He had heard about the bones being found in the fire so I am sure he had that in his head. Couple that with his girlfriend dumping him and his sad life and I can see why he was full of angst and depressed.

Now put this boy in a room with the 2 seasoned pros who are hell bent on getting a confession. What chance did this kid ever have?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[stephsb]

I think this aspect is very clear.

I guess for myself, the question is still whether there is any truth in Brendan's statements to his mom and cousin kayla.

Kayla tells her guidance counselor that brendan is crying and mentions body parts in a fire. she later recants.

Brendan tells his mother upon being questioned about his bleached pants, that he was helping steve clean his garage floor.


So, these are really the only two statements that I regard as potentially true in regards to Brendan. Neither proves he was KNOWINGLY involved in the murder, if steve did kill her.

These statements were not originated via police coercion, so that's why I regard them as potential truth.

Not convinced on the Kayla statement as I think kids gossip and they likely all knew about the case and the burning of the body. So a kid could get attention by saying they know something. I don't think it's crazy to suggest that.


But I personally believe that Brendan did clean steve's garage floor that night with bleach. Doesn't mean it was TH's blood. But I believe it to be truth, that he cleaned something off that floor that night.


Sadly, now that Brendan has given seemingly hundreds of versions of that night, it's hard to know what the truth is about the cleaning of the floor. Was it a deer's blood ? Was it transmission fluid or something else that came from a car ?

either way, I am going to guess that 99% of people who have witnessed transcripts of the dassey interviews and seen information on this thread that he was fed things to say and mentally manipulated, believe 100% that nothing about those interviews can be trusted.


But whether Barb Janda or Kayla's words can be trusted is something that likely is more in contention in the minds of many, not just myself.

Until we've seen the context of Barb and Kayla's interviews, we have no idea how they gave the statements. I truly believe Kayla's were exaggerated and downright made up in areas. Like Brendan, she was just a child, in a very adult situation. If we can accept that Brendan would lie about raping and slitting a woman's throat, it shouldn't be a huge leap to believe Kayla could have lied in her statements for whatever reason as well. Personally, I felt for her on the stand, I found her tears to be real, and found her to be distressed. No one likes to admit in open court they made up stories, and I think she felt bad for what she did. She was given the chance to go back and affirm her original statements and continue lying (plenty of witnesses have), but she didn't. JMO

I don't put much weight on Barb's statement, as blood was not cleaned off that garage floor w. Bleach, at least not the bleach that bleached Brendan's pants. Blood cleaned w. Chlorine bleach (the type that bleaches pants) does not prevent luminol hits, because it doesn't remove the hemoglobin. Chlorine bleach can also contaminate crime scenes by having the whole scene glow, making it impossible to identify trace blood. AFAIK, this did not happen in Brendan's case. I agree that the pants were bleached, but I do not believe they were bleached cleaning Steven's garage, or it was a different day and Barb didn't notice until the 31st. Interestingly enough, she fails to mention the blood Brendan claims he cleaned off his pants, and notices none of the other stains that were shown during his trial, which the State of course made no attempt to identify.

As for truth in Brendan's statements, you are completely right, we can never know the truth, as by this point his statements were so contaminated w. Coercion and lies and contradictions everything needs to be called into question. Any statements, however, that he tries to stick to even when cops are leading him in the other direction should be looked at as potentially true, as well as things he gives them repeatedly on his own. I believe the story of playing play station is probably true after he got off the bus is probably true, I think the story of not being able to shoot a gun because his family cat got sick and had to be shot is true, and I think he saw Chuck and Steven in the garage the day after the murder talking and working on his car. These are things he came up with on his own and tries to stick with even when LE attempts to change the subject or downright tell him he's wrong. There are more, but nothing super relevant to the murder, IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MaxManning]

But if you were a cop and you were going to place it there to be suddenly found, would you put it out in the open like that, right on the floor?

It seems possible to me that it fell from somewhere , like from under something else that was moved or something. I just think that if it were planted, it would not have been put right there like that, causing people to wonder why it was overlooked previously.

I believe I read in the dassey trial transcripts that there were books on that piece of furniture they were moving around, and that it's possible the key dropped out of one of the books.

Bottom line for most is that if anyone but Lenk or one of his cohorts finds that key, it becomes infinitely more believable that it's not planted.

I don't think that anything more than theory can be surmised from the way the key was found. We all have to agree that the key could have fallen from a book, that is plausible. It stinks to high hell that Lenk was there, but if you take him out of the equation, we have to admit that in a normal situation, that could be a valid explanation.

I think the fact that it's a valet key, could potentially be important in proving it was planted. For instance if someone could verify that TH did or didn't use her valet key as her main key. A friend or family member or co-worker might possibly know this.

 

[stephsb]

I was thinking about Brendan and his "story" and how and why he came up with what he did and thought about how he may have come up with some of this stuff. Now think about a boy with the mentality of a 4th grader in the body of a 16 year old. I would imagine there to be a lot of angst inside of his mind. Shy, awkward, having just been dumped by his first girlfriend.

Now imagine Brendan's growing up with his uncle Steve in prison his whole life. He never knew his uncle until he was released from prison and moved next door. I am sure he had heard a lot of crazy stuff at school about his uncle. And now here he is with his uncle back in jail for a horrendous crime.

So here you have this kid who spends most of his time playing PS2 and watching TV. I can imagine the thoughts that may have been swirling in his confused mind. Perhaps he had nightmares about it. Perhaps he had imagined what had happened that night and how his uncle may have done such a horrible thing. He had heard about the bones being found in the fire so I am sure he had that in his head. Couple that with his girlfriend dumping him and his sad life and I can see why he was full of angst and depressed.

Now put this boy in a room with the 2 seasoned pros who are hell bent on getting a confession. What chance did this kid ever have?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The simple answer is no chance, that's what is so sad. He clearly had no idea the severity of the situation he was in, or the consequences of what he confessed to. He believed if he told the investigators what they wanted, they would help him, and why wouldn't he, they promised him they would hundreds of times. These practices are so dangerous when used with children- an adult can see through them, a child who has below avg intelligence won't.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MaxManning]

Until we've seen the context of Barb and Kayla's interviews, we have no idea how they gave the statements. I truly believe Kayla's were exaggerated and downright made up in areas. Like Brendan, she was just a child, in a very adult situation. If we can accept that Brendan would lie about raping and slitting a woman's throat, it shouldn't be a huge leap to believe Kayla could have lied in her statements for whatever reason as well. Personally, I felt for her on the stand, I found her tears to be real, and found her to be distressed. No one likes to admit in open court they made up stories, and I think she felt bad for what she did. She was given the chance to go back and affirm her original statements and continue lying (plenty of witnesses have), but she didn't. JMO

I don't put much weight on Barb's statement, as blood was not cleaned off that garage floor w. Bleach, at least not the bleach that bleached Brendan's pants. Blood cleaned w. Chlorine bleach (the type that bleaches pants) does not prevent luminol hits, because it doesn't remove the hemoglobin. Chlorine bleach can also contaminate crime scenes by having the whole scene glow, making it impossible to identify trace blood. AFAIK, this did not happen in Brendan's case. I agree that the pants were bleached, but I do not believe they were bleached cleaning Steven's garage, or it was a different day and Barb didn't notice until the 31st. Interestingly enough, she fails to mention the blood Brendan claims he cleaned off his pants, and notices none of the other stains that were shown during his trial, which the State of course made no attempt to identify.

As for truth in Brendan's statements, you are completely right, we can never know the truth, as by this point his statements were so contaminated w. Coercion and lies and contradictions everything needs to be called into question. Any statements, however, that he tries to stick to even when cops are leading him in the other direction should be looked at as potentially true, as well as things he gives them repeatedly on his own. I believe the story of playing play station is probably true after he got off the bus is probably true, I think the story of not being able to shoot a gun because his family cat got sick and had to be shot is true, and I think he saw Chuck and Steven in the garage the day after the murder talking and working on his car. These are things he came up with on his own and tries to stick with even when LE attempts to change the subject or downright tell him he's wrong. There are more, but nothing super relevant to the murder, IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There was a luminol hit. The dassey trial transcripts state that. So it's consistent with them trying to clean the scene with chlorine.

Strang seems to acknowledge that this hit was there in the Kelly Files interview because he says it was "deer blood". In the dassey trial transcripts that is what the defense clarifies with the expert who applied the luminol. They asked him if the blood had to be human blood, or if it could possibly be deer blood. The expert agreed that it could be deer blood. So my assumption is that strang questioned him the same in the avery trial.

I'll see if I can find the page in the dassey trial transcripts for you to go over.

From what I think I understand, we need to make a distinction between bleach destroying DNA information that can be used for a profile match and bleach eliminating blood from being detected by a luminol test. They are distinctly different topics.

 

[Juan23]

If SA did "hide" the Rav4 on the property, why would he bring the key back with him and hide it in his house? This makes no sense unless he was planning to go back days or weeks later and properly dispose of the car which I doubt. It would be super easy to get rid of the key, or just leave it with the car like they do with most of the cars in a junkyard.

 

[chaleigh26]

I mistakenly called Lenk, Colborn earlier and won't let me edit my post. Sorry I have information overload

 

[MaxManning]

I am going to preface this with the fact that I don't feel confident in my knowledge of luminol and all the chemicals that can be used to remove blood or make them undetectable to a luminol test. I also don't feel I understand what can make blood unusable for DNA testing. I am making assumptions based on what I read in the dassey trial transcripts :

If you have the dassey trial docs go to the 4/17 doc and start on page 160

I am assuming that this same guy testified in Avery trial, because Dean Strang made a comment on Kelly Files that is related to this testimony, in regards to deer blood.

I do understand that there are two different types of bleach, and my assumption is that chlorine bleach was used because brendan's pants were dyed.

The other kind of bleach, I know doesn't dye clothing. Does that bleach make DNA unusable ? Does that bleach eliminate a potential luminol hit ? I don't know, but not sure it matters as it seems to be accepted by the defense that there was a luminol hit. It also seems to be accepted that chlorine bleach would dye brendan's pants.

In the avery trial, maybe this other type of bleach comes up, but in the dassey trial, I didn't see mention of it. They don't even make a distinction between types of bleach in this document, which is why I assume it is irrelevant.


But, am open to hearing why it would be relevant to a positive luminol hit.

 

[MaxManning]

On the topic of luminol. Would it react to transmission fluid ? Oil ?

I think the defense seemed to only care that it could react to deer blood. But given that it's a garage and cleaning up something coming from a car would seem common, it's worth asking that question.

They mention a penny would illuminate. So it's clear that things I wouldn't expect to illuminate given my limited understanding, would illuminate much the same as blood.

 

[stephsb]

There was a luminol hit. The dassey trial transcripts state that. So it's consistent with them trying to clean the scene with chlorine.

Strang seems to acknowledge that this hit was there in the Kelly Files interview because he says it was "deer blood". In the dassey trial transcripts that is what the defense clarifies with the expert who applied the luminol. They asked him if the blood had to be human blood, or if it could possibly be deer blood. The expert agreed that it could be deer blood. So my assumption is that strang questioned him the same in the avery trial.

I'll see if I can find the page in the dassey trial transcripts for you to go over.

From what I think I understand, we need to make a distinction between bleach destroying DNA information that can be used for a profile match and bleach eliminating blood from being detected by a luminol test. They are distinctly different topics.

If chlorine bleach was used, they should have still been able to get a positive result from the hemoglobin- not a DNA match but as I understand it, it could have been identified as human blood. In addition, if chlorine bleach was dumped on a crime scene to the extent that it splashed up and stained his clothes, that should have been enough to cause the whole area to glow. Chlorine bleach is known to contaminate crime scenes. If it had been used, there should have been arcs of wiping that would have glowed, and indicated the use of bleach, since luminol reacts w. Chlorine bleach

Also, Avery's garage was concrete, and cleaning blood out of concrete is different than cleaning blood out of a shirt or carpet. I read an article about this on gsa.gov, I can try and link when I get home. bleach is not one of the agents used to get blood out of concrete, and certainly gasoline and paint thinner wouldn't be, which Brendan also alleges were used. These chemicals should have been tested for, and as far as I've seen, they weren't, or weren't detected.

Like I said, I don't dispute Brendan's pants had bleach on them, but it could have come from anywhere, on any day.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[stephsb]

On the topic of luminol. Would it react to transmission fluid ? Oil ?

I think the defense seemed to only care that it could react to deer blood. But given that it's a garage and cleaning up something coming from a car would seem common, it's worth asking that question.

They mention a penny would illuminate. So it's clear that things I wouldn't expect to illuminate given my limited understanding, would illuminate much the same as blood.

No, I do not believe these would react, but I'll double check.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk