Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery - #2

[norest4thewicked]

JMO, but after listening to that, I have to say that that guy sounds as biased as most Wisonsinites did 10 years ago. He isn't open-minded about looking at the case from any other point of view than that which he originally embraced.

I don't know which side that radio program slanted, but it sounds like every single person who watched the Netflix drama and then ran over to sign a petition to get him a new trial. Sad...

 

[MysticJynx]

He must be quoting Nancy Grace because she said that too on her show this week. Six places in Avery's car. She said "six places in his car" to be exact. Never heard this before nor read it anywhere. I haven't seen it listed in the 90% more evidence than shown on the documentary either. Anyone?

Teresa's blood was not in his car that I have heard. His planted blood was in six places of her car. The dashboard by the ignition being the most known. Her blood was also in the back of her own Rav4. As for Nancy Grace, god I read an article she was arrested for murder, so it must be true right? Cause that's how her show is. She believes someone is guilty and then cuts off her own guests that disagree with her. Like the two defense lawyers that were on her show, trying to state that Brendan Dassey does seem to have been lead into a confession. So she cuts both off and goes to the sources that will say hes guilty. KEN KRATZ and The Sheriff of Manitowoc now Hermann? I thought Nancy was for victims rights. Ken Kratz is a known sexual addict and guilty of sexual harassing women that were already victims of violent crime. In which he was prosecuting the accused in that case. Then blame it on his drug problems. And still trust he didn't also use his power of a DA on anyone in any of his other cases.

 

[stephsb]

BBM
Maybe because there were 2 or more jurors who made it clear they would not budge on that point? Maybe they also happened to be related to certain county officials. Maybe they intimidated the 7 jurors who initially voted "Not Guilty".
Sorry - I know I'm posting a reply to something written days ago - I had a wedding and I'm trying to catch up with all the comments!

Or maybe the 7 jurors who initially voted not guilty spent the 20+ hours in deliberation considering the evidence and that is what led them to change their vote. Since none of us were there, both scenarios are possible.

 

[stephsb]

It is correct that he is said to be the last person to see her alive. Which in the case I made above would mean that J. Zipperer should never have seen her at all that day. Since she would never leave the Avery lot according to the States Case. The state cant have it both ways, which means if she was indeed at the zipperer residence first, it would have been after 2:30 and 3:00pm not between 2:00-2:30. Between 1:40-2:25pm she was driving 36 miles into Manitowoc. Since that confirmed call from Auto trader from 2:27-2:32 has her not arriving yet where ever she was going for at least ten minutes. That means that there is no way that Bobby could have seen her at 2:30 if Teresa was at the Zipperers residence first. I would put her at the zipperer residence at about 2:40pm or so. This is Before she took the pictures and did her sales thing. before she went to the last known stop at the Avery Salvage.

So Which house was she at at 2:30pm October 31 2005.

Because of the testimony that Bobby says he watches her from a window of his trailer, Because of the only person who could confirm his time was giving conflicting statements from the first statements he made in 2005, than on the stand in 2007. ST, being his only alibi. I really think Teresa was last seen at the Avery Salvage Yard around 3:30-3:45 as the bus driver testified too. I believe that Bobby and Scott had something to do with her disappearance and murder.

It would mean that their claim of going hunting, NOT TOGETHER, at 2:45 more likely 3:45. Would make that hunting trip for both men to be about 1 hour long. Not sure about hunting. but seems to me like it would take longer. And why so late in the day. And why for ST when he was just visiting his sick mom, then goes hunting, then goes back to see her with Barb around 5:30?

Had the state looked into their own timeline they would have noticed such inconsistencies and explored other avenues. Or so I would have hoped. Seems they just didn't care once again when it came to this man. They let the tunnel vision guide their investigation and all possibilities of other suspects go unseen.

Manitowoc needed to back off from the beginning and sadly they did not. The tunnel vision and conflict of interest they presented overwhelmed the justice for poor Teresa Halbach, Her family and her friends.

There are serious problems w. Bobby's testimony and the testimony of other witnesses. Perhaps it is just a harmless error (Bobby isn't as certain about the time as he thinks) or maybe he is deliberately tampering w. the timeline, for whatever reason.

For what it's worth, Joanne Zipperer testified Teresa left her residence at about 3pm. The bus driver, Blaine, and Brendan testify to arriving home around 3:40PM (Blaine and bus driver) and Brendan I believe says 3:45. They all reportedly see Teresa's car in the driveway. Blaine testifies that he and Brendan wake Bobby up at 3:40PM.

You are correct in that this doesn't fit w. the testimony of ST and BD, but it also doesn't fit w. Steven's statement on Nov 9, where he says Teresa is at his property from 2-3PM. Again, maybe Steven was confused about the time, but it is another inconsistency.

Obviously, they can't all be correct. I tend to believe the bus driver and Blaine/Brendan's testimony the most, since Blaine and the bus driver especially would have no reason to lie.

ST and BD's stories are definitely suspicious. BD never mentions Brendan or Blaine waking him up, but Blaine mentions it. ST and BD's mutual alibi of driving down the road and seeing eachother is also suspicious IMO. Perhaps they created their "alibi" because they were concerned they'd be suspects if they didn't have an alibi (although there was clearly no reason to worry, as CA also had no alibi and appears to never have been a serious suspect either) and they weren't involved in the murder at all. In ST's defense, it seems he came back from GB for the purpose of picking up Barb Janda, maybe he decided to hunt to kill some time prior to going back and leaving w. her. I'm not sure I believe this, but it's certainly possible.

My question is, if they were involved, what time and how did it happen? They had a very, very narrow window to work with. We know ST was w. Barb Janda on the way to GB at 5:30, so they had from 3:45-5:30 as the largest window of time. So how did this go down w.o anyone else finding out about it, and ST w. an alibi beginning at 5:30. What were Steven and CA doing during this time period? Supposedly, EA was working when Robert Fabian arrived on the property at 5PM, after that they supposedly hunted rabbits w. the golf cart on the property.

There are a lot of problems w. the timeline, hashing it out is difficult w. all the inconsistencies, unfortunately.

 

[shadowraiths]

At the beginning of episode 8, Kratz states, "reasonable doubts are for innocent people."

Umm... no. From law.com

beyond a reasonable doubt
adj. part of jury instructions in all criminal trials, in which the jurors are told that they can only find the defendant guilty if they are convinced "beyond a reasonable doubt" of his or her guilt. Sometimes referred to as "to a moral certainty," the phrase is fraught with uncertainty as to meaning, but try: "you better be damned sure." By comparison it is meant to be a tougher standard than "preponderance of the evidence," used as a test to give judgment to a plaintiff in a civil (non-criminal) case.​

In other words, even if the person is as guilty as sin, they should be acquitted if the prosecutor is unable to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that they committed the crime. This is exactly why, at this point, I would not be able to return a verdict of guilty.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I thought he just said that Teresa's blood was in Steven Avery's car. Is that true or did I hear it wrong? (Radio program)

Could we please put this false information to sleep, it's not true.

It's all here, what Nancy Grace actually said -


http://www.bustle.com/articles/1344...rderer-is-guilty-and-that-theres-mountains-of

Edit: not that I watch this lady, but we can't blame her for something she never said. The person on the radio misheard obviously.

 

[steveml]

BBM
Maybe because there were 2 or more jurors who made it clear they would not budge on that point? Maybe they also happened to be related to certain county officials. Maybe they intimidated the 7 jurors who initially voted "Not Guilty".
Sorry - I know I'm posting a reply to something written days ago - I had a wedding and I'm trying to catch up with all the comments!

Who knows? You raise a very good point. It naturally gives cause for concern. It doesn't really matter who decided the guilt or innocence of this trial. That doesn't quantify absolute guilt or innocence. The nature of trial by jury is absolutely based on opinion, it has been, and always will be. Let's not kid ourselves into believing that a jury verdict is absolute and cannot be questioned. That would be the biggest injustice we could ever impose on society. If something doesn't appear to be as per normal, we have the right to question and expect 'reasonable' answers. And when I say 'reasonable' I think the bar for reasonability should be a fair bit higher when the consequence could incarcerate somebody for the majority of their time on this planet.

 

[mcwhit]

Here is the thing that has been tumbling over in my thoughts....

THE Time Line for October 31st, 2005.

8:12am Steven Avery's Phone is recorded as the number that called Auto Trader to set up the appointment for his Sister. call was about 3 mins long.
Barb Janda's Van to be photographed. He leaves her number as the call back number.

9:15am Teresa Halbach is contacted by Auto Trader about appointment(s)?

11:45am I read it was about 11:45 or so when she called Barb Janda's Phone number and left the voicemail that she
would be there around 2:00pm MAYBE EVEN LATER

QUESTIONS. Who called Steve to let him know she left a message? Did she have these other appointments preset or were they also called in that morning? The other two appointments being Schmitz and Zipperer. Did she call them to confirm times of her visit? When were these calls made?
Is that why the Maybe Even Later statement was said in the first place. Cause she was also trying to confirm her other appointments and
could not give an exact time to when these other appointments would be.

1:30pm The first appointment Schmitz was in New Holstein Wisconsin, On the outskirts of Calumet County. He said he
would testify that she was there around 1:30 and stayed 10-15 mins. He also used approximates. I suppose this could go
either way with give or take a few minutes. But lets stay on time She left between 1:40 and 1:45pm.

1:52pm she recieves a 1 minute and 9 second call that now has a different LCELL number than earlier that day. Not
exactly sure yet what these ICELL and LCELL mean, so if someone could explain it great. My assumption is this is a cell
tower in which her phone is now pinging off of. Possibly now from a Manitowoc County Tower? However New Holstein is
only moments away from the county line of Manitowoc. Either way I believe that Teresa was on the road driving towards
the Manitowoc Address of the Zipperer's or Avery's. From The new holstien resident to the Zipperer's resident is aproximately 45
mins by car without any traffic.

2:27pm about the time she would be coming up on one of the other two properties in Manitowoc County. She gets a call from
auto trader which lasts until 2:32pm. She is said to have stated she was 10 mins out....... From whose residence I wonder?

Questions... So where did she go first? The Zipperer residence that places her at their home between 2:00 and 2:30. Which can't be right. She
couldn't have been there, she had to drive 36 miles from the 1st customers home. So Teresa arrived at the Zipperer residence between 230 and 3. Making their testimony faulty. Zipperer testimony would be more faulty had Teresa went to the Avery residence first, where
Bobby Dassey claimes to have "WATCHED" her take pictures until she walked back to Avery's trailer between 2:30 and
2:45pm. Had she gone first to the Avery residence when exactly did the Zipperers see Teresa that day? Could they have
been the last residence she visited? Or did Bobby Dassey lie about the time he saw her, and Teresa was as the Zipperer residence during this 2:30-2:45pm time line of his.


How long would an Auto Trader Photography Appointment normally last?


Also on her phone record that is posted around the internet that claim he called her at 2:24 and 2:35. This is confusing. can someone verify the times he made those three calls to Teresa's phone. Cause there was no call at 2:35 on the evidence photo I saw. I see there is 3 calls before the one from auto trader. 2:12pm 1 minute long, 2:13pm 37 seconds long, 2:24pm 8 seconds long. There is also a call at 2:41 that was about a minute long, Who was that from? So far according to what i've heard and read the two im pretty sure about being from Avery's phone is the 2:24 one and one that came in much later at 4:35pm that lasted 13 seconds and has the CFNA feature at the end of that line.

Call me a little confused on these records.

Great post. Call me confused as well. Would Auto Trader have given SA Teresa's cell phone number? If he was trying to reach her, wouldn't he go through Auto Trader like he did to make the appointment? It occurred to me suddenly, why did he have it in the first place? Has that been covered and I missed it?

 

[steveml]

If anybody's really really seriously interested in contentious trials or anything similar, please PLEASE avoid anything that has the name Nancy Grace associated with it. I wouldn't like to make fun of it but Nancy Grace is crap TV - we in the UK have Jeremy Kyle ffs. We deserve more sympathy than anyone who listens to Nancy Grace. Please do yourselves a favour, and think for yourselves. You're all educated people - make it count.

 

[rocket_girl]

Great post. Call me confused as well. Would Auto Trader have given SA Teresa's cell phone number? If he was trying to reach her, wouldn't he go through Auto Trader like he did to make the appointment? It occurred to me suddenly, why did he have it in the first place? Has that been covered and I missed it?

I believe she leaves her cell number on the voicemail on Barb Jandas phone when she calls to confirm she is coming out there.

 

[Sleuther87]

Summary of Bryan Dassey's Interview on 02-27-2006 (exhibit 89) - MUST READ!

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/409ewx/bryan_dassey_interview_02272006_exhibit_89/

Here's a brief snippet:

BRYAN described STEVEN as always having a bad temper and it seemed to him that he was getting more angry about the business and activities in the yard. BRYAN said STEVEN ha... him, "He could kill someone and get away with it."

 

[dexter75]

Of course he did.
Why wouldn't Bryan try and " throw Steve under the bus? "
Just like ST has been doing. It takes any suspicion off of the 2 of them, imo.

Summary of Bryan Dassey's Interview on 02-27-2006 (exhibit 89) - MUST READ!

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/409ewx/bryan_dassey_interview_02272006_exhibit_89/

Here's a brief snippet:

 

[Sleuther87]

Of course he did.
Why wouldn't Bryan try and " throw Steve under the bus? "
Just like ST has been doing. It takes any suspicion off of the 2 of them, imo.

Ummm I think you're thinking of Bobby...

But I guess Bryan must just be another guy who's lying about Steven...

 

[stephsb]

Wow, so glad you posted this! Bryan seems like a more reliable source than most on the Avery property (although that may not be saying much lol) clearly not a suspect, and doesn't seem particularly close with anyone in his family, making it less likely he's lying to protect anyone, IMO

If what he is saying is true and Bobby, Blaine and Brendan were home at 5pm, this would narrow the window for ST and BD to be involved in the murder even further: 3:45-5 at the widest.

What was the conflict going on at the business that was upsetting Steven, that is what I would like to know....Hearing more of the animosity between EA and Steven was also interesting, as was Stevens behavior up north. To be fair, this is a guy who served 18 years for a crime he didn't commit, he has every right to get nervous when hearing about police around his property. However, it's worth taking note of him and CA hauling *advertiser censored** after hearing about the cops. Wonder why CA would care. Also, the urge to run doesn't show a clean conscience (JMO) and Brendan also said Steven was acting strange up north. Again, it could just be fear of police in general, due to past experiences, but definitely worth considering.


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[Sleuther87]

Let's be fair to CA - the transcript indicates that Steven cares, not CA. It just says that CA went with him.

CHARLES had overheard that Marinette County was coming to their property and STEVEN panicked and jumped in his truck and BRYAN said he "hauled *advertiser censored*" to the cabin with CHARLES. BRYAN said when they got back, STEVEN seemed very panicked and that he was going to take off.

 

[stephsb]

No one else went and hauled *advertiser censored** back with him. Wasn't trying to point the finger at him, just thought it was worth noting, especially when considering Brendan's insistence he saw Steve and CA together in the garage the night after the murder (which LE pretty much told him he was wrong about) and indicated at various occasions that CA probably knew about what Steven did. There certainly could be an innocent explanation- CA and Steven were closer than EA and Steven, Steven was upset, so CA went with him. The post-conviction motions certainly don't point to CA and Steven having a rosy relationship, but then again, I feel like all the relationships in this family appear to be extremely complicated and potentially volatile. JMO


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[Sleuther87]

Yeah, it's interesting he went with him, and I know it was a small thing to point out.

But considering how little it takes for so many people to start crafting conspiracies - for ST, EA, ex-bf, sheriffs, and pretty much anyone else not named Steven - I just wanted to make that clear.

 

[missy1974]

Let's be fair to CA - the transcript indicates that Steven cares, not CA. It just says that CA went with him.

and also to be fair.... this is not a transcript, this is a summary made by the officer. This paints SA in a bad light, like lots of other things, but I do think it gives Brendan's alibi of being home and playing video games, getting a call from SA about coming over and helping with garbage/junk (what Bryan maybe overheard)

As for SA acting strange up North... if he is guilty, he would be acting strange, if he is innocent, I don't think it would be out of the realm to believe he would be upset and acting strange. I mean, the guy did spend 18 years in jail for a crime he didn't commit, I doubt he would have much "faith" in the system, if innocent.

 

[stephsb]

Yeah, it's interesting he went with him, and I know it was a small thing to point out.

But considering how little it takes for so many people to start crafting conspiracies - for ST, EA, ex-bf, sheriffs, and pretty much anyone else not named Steven - I just wanted to make that clear.

Fair enough, I do agree people can take the conspiracy theories to a whole new level, I have heard some downright bizarre and crazy theories. Thank you for clarifying for me, I definitely do not want to give fuel to conspiracy theories

Overall I think this statement was a great read because Bryan does appear to have no real reason to lie, and he corroborates some statements that have been brought up by others. It also gives some insight into the family dynamics, like I said earlier, I would love to know what kind of issues were going on with EA at the salvage yard that were supposedly upsetting Steven. Interesting stuff.


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[stephsb]

and also to be fair.... this is not a transcript, this is a summary made by the officer. This paints SA in a bad light, like lots of other things, but I do think it gives Brendan's alibi of being home and playing video games, getting a call from SA about coming over and helping with garbage/junk (what Bryan maybe overheard)

As for SA acting strange up North... if he is guilty, he would be acting strange, if he is innocent, I don't think it would be out of the realm to believe he would be upset and acting strange. I mean, the guy did spend 18 years in jail for a crime he didn't commit, I doubt he would have much "faith" in the system, if innocent.

Agree that the acting strange up north could go either way for sure.


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