Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery - #3

[Tawny]

There is a body in his yard in pieces and burned. He is the last person to see her. She went to his yard and is never seen again. There is blood in her car that is his that I believe came from him. Not from a tube in an evidence locker.
He had a fire the night she was there and never seen again.
Her car is found on his lot hidden away.
Even without the key or the bullet that is enough for most people on any other case. I would love to see another case where a body is found burned on the property and people try and explain it has to be someone else.

The DNA points to him. The body is found there, the car is found there. The key does not matter that much to me. I think it was there but even if it was never found, that does not matter that much to me.

This is a mountain. I have seen many many people claim to be innocent. Even to the innocence project and they process dna and wham it was them.

I feel horrible for Dassey because his atty put him in prison. And he should be out. There is no evidence against him at all. Nothing. Just his word and they can not even prove what he said because it was fed to him and nothing was there to corroborate it. HE got shafted and I hope someone steps in and saves him.

By the way.. Your siggy kills me!! It is good to debate with you..

Thanks! I adore the Winchester brothers.

As to the evidence... Nearly everything is circumstantial... (btw I chose wiki because it breaks it down barney style for me )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence

"Circumstantial evidence is evidence that relies on an inference to connect it to a conclusion of fact—like a fingerprint at the scene of a crime. By contrast, direct evidence supports the truth of an assertion directly—i.e., without need for any additional evidence or inference.

On its own, circumstantial evidence allows for more than one explanation. Different pieces of circumstantial evidence may be required, so that each corroborates the conclusions drawn from the others. Together, they may more strongly support one particular inference over another. An explanation involving circumstantial evidence becomes more likely once alternative explanations have been ruled out.

Circumstantial evidence allows a trier of fact to infer that a fact exists.[1] In criminal law, the inference is made by the trier of fact in order to support the truth of an assertion (of guilt or absence of guilt).

Testimony can be direct evidence or it can be circumstantial. For instance, a witness saying that she saw a defendant stab a victim is providing direct evidence. By contrast, a witness who says that she saw the defendant enter a house, that she heard screaming, and that she saw the defendant leave with a bloody knife gives circumstantial evidence. It is the necessity for inference, and not the obviousness of a conclusion, that determines whether evidence is circumstantial.

Forensic evidence supplied by an expert witness is usually treated as circumstantial evidence. For instance, a forensic scientist may provide results of ballistic tests proving that the defendant’s firearm fired the bullets that killed the victim.

Circumstantial evidence is especially important in civil and criminal cases where direct evidence is lacking."

 

[Jaiddie]

http://wgnradio.com/2016/01/18/maki...t-the-infamous-case-this-stuff-drives-me-nuts

Strang is not quite as reserved as he usually is, and gets a bit more animated in this one. I also like the fact that he explains his thoughts on the new testimony of Jodi in the media that is being bombarded at the public at this time.

 

[MysticJynx]

And Did they every find out why her car was damaged or when it happened?

 

[Sustained]

.....

1. He thought he had more time to do this ???? Really ???? How did SA know that Teresa hadn't told someone where she was going to be and what time she would be back. Hiding Teresa's car would have been a HUGE priority.

2. So SA assumed that Brendan wouldn't talk to his brothers or his mom ? How would he know that for sure ? Do you think Barb was afraid of Steven ?

3. Dasseys lived right next door - IMO, if they heard gunshots in the garage, they could've distinguished between a deer hunter a good distance away and shots within a few yards of their home.

4. I'd be willing to bet Barb, Tadych, any of the Dassey boys, Chuck, etc stopped by Steven's on various occasions without calling. None of them seem like the formal type. And no one was working at the yard on 10/31, a Monday ? Yard was open to 5 PM and TH supposedly arrived around 2:30 or so according to Bobby.

 

[bessie]

I've moved some posts to a new thread. Good topic.

Blood Spatter on the RAV 4 Door

 

[bessie]

A post has been moved here:

[h=1]Kayla's Statement[/h]

 

[payperfilm]

WHY MANITOWOC LAW ENFORCEMENT MAY HAVE KILLED TERESA HALBACH - MY THEORY


Here is a partial timeline of events that occurred October 31st 2005.


(1) Halbach’s employer Auto Trader calls her cell phone 2:27 p.m.. Haibach tells them she “is ten minutes away” from Avery’s residence.
2) Bobby Dassey testified that he saw Halbach arrive between 2:30 and 2:45, before taking a shower. Bobby then said he left the house between 2:45 and 3:00, to go bow-hunting. He claimed to see Halbach’s SUV, but not Teresa.
(3) Brendan Dassey’s schoolbus driver, Lisa Buchner, testified to seeing Halbach taking pictures of Scott’s van when she dropped Brendan and his brother Blaine off at 3:30.
(4) A truck driver, Jon Leurquin, testified that he saw Teresa Halbach’s SUV leaving the Avery property between approximately 3:30 and 4:00 while he was filling his vehicle at a nearby propane repository. He did not see who was driving the vehicle.


First, one would believe the testimony of Auto Trader and the school bus driver to be the most reliable and accurate as there
are phone records for Auto Trader and an exact schedule for the school bus driver. Plus they would not be vested in the case
and would have no reason to fabricate they stories.


If Bobby Dassey’s testimony is to be believed, then Teresa Haibach was at the Avery residence, alive, well, and in plain sight,
for 45 minutes to upwards of 60 minutes. This begs the question of why a ten to twenty minute job took so long? How many
photos do you need of the van? This is never answered in the trial and needs an explanation. In addition, why does Katz
introduce this testimony when it raises this big question? What difference does it make when Haibach arrives there? The
reliable school bus driver saw Halbach anyway.


However, if you subtract Booby Dassey’s testimony and add Steven Avery’s testimony, you have a bigger question to answer.
Haibach arrives at Avery’s residence as late as 3:20-3:25 PM. Where was Teresa Haibach from 2:27 PM to 3:25 PM when she was only ten minutes away? There’s no evidence she stopped to have lunch, get gas, had car troubles or anything that would delay her. She shouldn’t have gotten lost. It even sounds like she picked up the phone call from Auto Trader as she was en route in her RAV4.


I theorize she pulled off the main road and interacted with someone. The only two groups she would do this for are people she
knew and LAW ENFORCEMENT. Imagine that a Manitowoc County Deputy pulls the beautiful Teresa Haibach over and they
park out of sight from the main road. He sexually assaults her? Perhaps she was speeding and the Deputy demanded sexual favors for letting her go? Remember Officer Daniel Holtzclaw in Oklahoma who sexually assaulted several women? It was something that could destroy his family and ruin his career. She eventually is allowed to leave because she had mentioned she was going to Steven Avery's residence. Perhaps he fears her further delay will immediately raise suspicions.


Halbach goes to the Avery residence, takes the pictures, and departs. She gets pulled over again not far from the Avery salvage yard. The Deputy is in a panic and kills Halbach fearing whatever he did will be made known. The murder takes place outside of the car thus little DNA evidence.The Deputy drives the RAV4 with Halbach’s body to the Avery salvage yard. Not to frame Avery but as a place where it wouldn’t stick out like a sore thumb. But once the RAV4 was there, Steven Avery became a convenient fall guy. It could have been one of the known characters of MAM or an unknown Deputy who had just enough access to plant keys and fish out bloody bandages from Avery’s waste baskets. Or the Sheriff’s Department knows the truth and wants to hide it. They may not have known with certainty that a Deputy did it, but had enough of an inkling that they needed to close ranks fast.


Thoughts anyone?

 

[MysticJynx]

I think the time line is off. i think her appointments were likely 15 mins to 20. I have posted about the time lines. I find the states time line to pressed together to all fit in there, and I find the defenses time line to long to be accurate. Going by the testimony that her first appointment that day was at around 1:30pm 35.5 miles out from the supposed second customer being GZ. and its about 45.4 miles from the first appointment to Averys. Google maps from the addresses state 40 min drive to do the 35.5 miles to the GZ and Google maps states its about a 50 minute drive to the Avery lot from that first address. If we go by what auto trader says about her being 10 minutes out from Averys place between 2:27 and 2:32pm while she talked to them. where would you most likely be.

1:30-1:45 pm at the first place in New Holstein.
1:45- 2:25pm To GZ residence
or
1:45 -2:35pm to Junk Yard.
2:27-2:32 fits that she is out from one but which? if she was out from the Avery that would me in my findings that she went to GZ afterwards.

She seems to have made it to all three spots I just wonder which order she went. Maybe the bus driver was wrong. Or had she been 10 mins from the GZ residence and spent about 15 mins there. leaving at 2:40 and arriving at the junk yard around 2:55pm. she still would have been gone before the bus driver saw her taking pictures. 3:10 or so.

Yeah still lots of questions.

 

[Jaiddie]

http://www.livehangama.com/2016/dr-phil-january-18-2016-full-episode/

Dr.Phil/Part 2 with Dean Strang, Sheriff Peterson ("easier to kill him, than frame him"), and SA ex fiancee Sandra Greenman (spelling?).

 

[Deeptoad]

So give me another suspect who knew Teresa was going there, Killed her there, and then hid her car and burned her in the pit?

Keeping in mind that Strang and Buting were not permitted to float alternatives at trial, I'll give you my take only.

Anyone could have gotten to her. The property is quite large and easily accessible. I think his other family members are suspect. I think her ex is suspect. The reason SA isn't as viable a suspect to me is that he would, reasonably, have expected either 1. Jodi's return home or 2. news media at his place to discuss passage of the 'Avery Act' that day/evening. He wouldn't have the opportunity to even entertain doing such a thing at that particular time.

Someone who knew his comings and goings certainly would have - such as his brothers and cousins who also lived at the property.

You've previously focused on the burn pit. I don't believe she was burned there. I think she was moved there by someone who knew SA had a rubbish fire that night. The time it would take to reduce a human body to cremains simply doesn't fit into the timeline. The heat required wouldn't have left behind items like screwdrivers with plastic handles and the like - all things found in SA's burn pit. And, since the family was kept from the property for a number of days, there was ample opportunity for cremains to be placed there.

So, as far as other suspects are concerned, I would say anyone and everyone who lived at that property SHOULD have been treated by LE as suspects. They were not.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Keeping in mind that Strang and Buting were not permitted to float alternatives at trial, I'll give you my take only.

Anyone could have gotten to her. The property is quite large and easily accessible. I think his other family members are suspect. I think her ex is suspect. The reason SA isn't as viable a suspect to me is that he would, reasonably, have expected either 1. Jodi's return home or 2. news media at his place to discuss passage of the 'Avery Act' that day/evening. He wouldn't have the opportunity to even entertain doing such a thing at that particular time.

Someone who knew his comings and goings certainly would have - such as his brothers and cousins who also lived at the property.

You've previously focused on the burn pit. I don't believe she was burned there. I think she was moved there by someone who knew SA had a rubbish fire that night. The time it would take to reduce a human body to cremains simply doesn't fit into the timeline. The heat required wouldn't have left behind items like screwdrivers with plastic handles and the like - all things found in SA's burn pit. And, since the family was kept from the property for a number of days, there was ample opportunity for cremains to be placed there.

So, as far as other suspects are concerned, I would say anyone and everyone who lived at that property SHOULD have been treated by LE as suspects. They were not.

No Not anyone could have gotten to her.. That infers that there was a whole lot of killers out on the lot. Someone elses property just waiting for a lonely woman to drive in.
SA was there that day. He was there mostly alone.

It is not like she was wandering around the lot. She went to meet him and take pics for him.

She is found burned on his property.

No one else who would have been there ( stranger) would have felt the need to burn her. When people kill people away from their personal space they leave the bodies.. Maybe bury them to delay finding her but that is not was done here. She was burned to hide her being there still. That only leads to one person.

If it was a stranger, they would not have moved her car, They would not have cared. They could have left her body in any of the cars on the lot.

Everything in this case points to one person. One.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Thanks! I adore the Winchester brothers.

As to the evidence... Nearly everything is circumstantial... (btw I chose wiki because it breaks it down barney style for me )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence

"Circumstantial evidence is evidence that relies on an inference to connect it to a conclusion of fact—like a fingerprint at the scene of a crime. By contrast, direct evidence supports the truth of an assertion directly—i.e., without need for any additional evidence or inference.

On its own, circumstantial evidence allows for more than one explanation. Different pieces of circumstantial evidence may be required, so that each corroborates the conclusions drawn from the others. Together, they may more strongly support one particular inference over another. An explanation involving circumstantial evidence becomes more likely once alternative explanations have been ruled out.

Circumstantial evidence allows a trier of fact to infer that a fact exists.[1] In criminal law, the inference is made by the trier of fact in order to support the truth of an assertion (of guilt or absence of guilt).

Testimony can be direct evidence or it can be circumstantial. For instance, a witness saying that she saw a defendant stab a victim is providing direct evidence. By contrast, a witness who says that she saw the defendant enter a house, that she heard screaming, and that she saw the defendant leave with a bloody knife gives circumstantial evidence. It is the necessity for inference, and not the obviousness of a conclusion, that determines whether evidence is circumstantial.

Forensic evidence supplied by an expert witness is usually treated as circumstantial evidence. For instance, a forensic scientist may provide results of ballistic tests proving that the defendant’s firearm fired the bullets that killed the victim.

Circumstantial evidence is especially important in civil and criminal cases where direct evidence is lacking."

I have stopped looking at circumstantial evidence as less than direct evidence since watching Cold Justice. I have seen them put together cases on CE alone and it hold water better than I could have imagined.
In this case it is overwhelming for me. I don't believe that LE framed him or that they killed TH. I believe that SA did this.
His finger was cut that day and there is blood right where he would put the key in.
IF he had no cuts that day, I would totally be second guessing it but you can see the cut on his finger that his defense team admits to him having.

 

[Sustained]

I have stopped looking at circumstantial evidence as less than direct evidence since watching Cold Justice. I have seen them put together cases on CE alone and it hold water better than I could have imagined.
In this case it is overwhelming for me. I don't believe that LE framed him or that they killed TH. I believe that SA did this.
His finger was cut that day and there is blood right where he would put the key in.
IF he had no cuts that day, I would totally be second guessing it but you can see the cut on his finger that his defense team admits to him having.

If Steven moved the car and bled by the ignition, why were there no fingerprints on the steering wheel from him driving the car or anyplace else in the car ? Was there any blood found on the branches/wood/car hood found covering the SUV ?

The man works in a salvage yard - pretty easy to see how he might get cut from time to time.

I do see your point though ... no one believes LE was outside the Avery property waiting for TH to come out. It is possible however that Bobby Dassey/Tadych killed TH, moved the car off property and burned her body out by the gravel pit. It is also possible that LE then found the car off property somewhere, cordoned off the Avery property, and then did their thing by returning the car to the junkyard and planted evidence to frame SA. Possible - yes ... probable - no.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

If Steven moved the car and bled by the ignition, why were there no fingerprints on the steering wheel from him driving the car or anyplace else in the car ? Was there any blood found on the branches/wood/car hood found covering the SUV ?

The man works in a salvage yard - pretty easy to see how he might get cut from time to time.

He could have worn gloves and he could have wiped it off.. the blood smudge on the dash to me is consistent with having blood soaking in a glove and smeared but not dripping blood so that fits.

I don't know why people are surprised when there are not fingerprints anymore. We all know that the police look for them so wearing gloves or wiping things down or cleaning things make sense.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

1. He thought he had more time to do this ???? Really ???? How did SA know that Teresa hadn't told someone where she was going to be and what time she would be back. Hiding Teresa's car would have been a HUGE priority.I don't think the location of where the car was found was it's original location. Additionally, he did not have to let LE on his property without a search warrant. I don't think he was worried about LE finding the car---he was going to claim he was framed in his mind from day 1.

2. So SA assumed that Brendan wouldn't talk to his brothers or his mom ? How would he know that for sure ? Do you think Barb was afraid of Steven ? He was a slow learner. I once saw a sociopath convince a whole room he did not rape his daughter and that his daughter was mentally ill.

3. Dasseys lived right next door - IMO, if they heard gunshots in the garage, they could've distinguished between a deer hunter a good distance away and shots within a few yards of their home. ...and you've never heard of "sighting a gun"?

4. I'd be willing to bet Barb, Tadych, any of the Dassey boys, Chuck, etc stopped by Steven's on various occasions without calling. None of them seem like the formal type. And no one was working at the yard on 10/31, a Monday ? Yard was open to 5 PM and TH supposedly arrived around 2:30 or so according to Bobby.

​...and you do not think with his sister buying the shackles they wouldn't have thought that he and TH were into S&M?

 

[Sustained]

He could have worn gloves and he could have wiped it off.. the blood smudge on the dash to me is consistent with having blood soaking in a glove and smeared but not dripping blood so that fits.

I don't know why people are surprised when there are not fingerprints anymore. We all know that the police look for them so wearing gloves or wiping things down or cleaning things make sense.

So he wears gloves to avoid leaving prints, but doesn't see and clean any of the blood drops left that supposedly dripped through the gloves. Not only that, he leaves the car in the salvage yard when it could be have been disposed of off property in many locations ? Makes no sense ...

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

So he wears gloves to avoid leaving prints, but doesn't see and clean any of the blood drops left that supposedly dripped through the gloves. Not only that, he leaves the car in the salvage yard when it could be have been disposed of off property in many locations ? Makes no sense ...

If he moved the car off the lot he is most likely going to be seen. Hiding the car there is the best way to hide it in plain sight.

He most likely thought the gloves protected him from bleeding on anything and did not notice. It was probably the last time he was in the car.

 

[Sustained]

​...and you do not think with his sister buying the shackles they wouldn't have thought that he and TH were into S&M?

They might have thought that, but there no DNA from Teresa on the shackles nor was any found in the trailer. Maybe someone ought to ask Jodi how Steven was using the shackles ?

 

[Sustained]

If he moved the car off the lot he is most likely going to be seen. Hiding the car there is the best way to hide it in plain sight.

He most likely thought the gloves protected him from bleeding on anything and did not notice. It was probably the last time he was in the car.

Disagree - sunset was at 4:45 PM on 10/31. Avery lives in a rural area - chances of him being seen would have been negligible. He could have dumped the car at 2 am off property and no one would have seen him.

A couple of other things don't sit well either ...

1) Why was none of TH's DNA found on the Toyota key ? Why wasn't TH's DNA/blood found in the garage ? Suspicious that Steven would go to great lengths to cleanup the garage, but leave blood in the RAV4 ?

2) What kind of idiot would burn a body in a fire pit right behind his house with folks coming and going for Halloween ? Especially when he had a smelter on the property ?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Disagree - sunset was at 4:45 PM on 10/31. Avery lives in a rural area - chances of him being seen would have been negligible. He could have dumped the car at 2 am off property and no one would have seen him.

A couple of other things don't sit well either ...

1) Why was none of TH's DNA found on the Toyota key ? Why wasn't TH's DNA/blood found in the garage ? Suspicious that Steven would go to great lengths to cleanup the garage, but leave blood in the RAV4 ?

2) What kind of idiot would burn a body in a fire pit right behind his house with folks coming and going for Halloween ? Especially when he had a smelter on the property ?

No way.. Those kind of places everyone knows everyone car. Someone would have noticed her car driving at some time. It is dinner time. People coming home people know who lives on the roads. He lives on AVERY road for goodness sake. Someone would have noticed.
She was shot. I don't know if he tarped it off and then burned that too, But I believe he shot her. I don't necessarily believe she was shot in the garage. I think she could have been shot somewhere else.

We all know fire destroys. With the mess of stuff in there with the body I bet he just put her in covered her up with stuff and then burned it and kept it hot until nothing was left.

I don't think this guy is a rocket scientist. I really believe his plan was to claim he was getting set up and that he staged things against himself and police to get back at them. I believe his plan all along was to claim set up.