New Docs Part 2

[shelbar53]

I think it was an IMPLUSIVE act of revenge aganist her mother after that fight. It obvioulsy wasnt planned out and thank goodness for that or she would have gotten away with it. Im wondering if she is rewinding things in her head and thinking "if only" I would have used Amy's money for a ticket to calif instead of food and cloths. "If only" I would have disposed of the body BEFORE it began to decomposr and smell. I do wonder what those night terrors were about, I dont think it was about being caught.....I think she thought she could get away with it.

 

[Hailiejade77]

I think it was an IMPLUSIVE act of revenge aganist her mother after that fight. It obvioulsy wasnt planned out and thank goodness for that or she would have gotten away with it. Im wondering if she is rewinding things in her head and thinking "if only" I would have used Amy's money for a ticket to calif instead of food and cloths. "If only" I would have disposed of the body BEFORE it began to decomposr and smell. I do wonder what those night terrors were about, I dont think it was about being caught.....I think she thought she could get away with it.

bold is mine:
I think she was afraid that she just killed her daughter for a man that doesn't really want to be with her and stay with her. jmo

 

[txsvicki]

I haven't had time to read the whole thread or documents, but noticed that KC claims to have told CA about abuse. I'm confused if Casey claims to have been abused by Lee or someone else for years or if it's the one incident.

 

[chefmom]

yes it seems that way. I don't think anything she was going to say would be truthful though. jmo

Highly doubtful that she would have come clean. She was probably just trying to buy some time, possibly weave some more lies, like she did when she took LE to Universal where she supposedly worked. I still have trouble understanding that one! She must have been lying to CA & GA and getting away with it for so long that she actually thought she could just lie to LE and get away with it? Blows my mind!

 

[LiveLoveLaughLiza]

Throughout these documents I'm seeing references from a number of different people about Cindy threatening to get custody of Caylee. It's been bothering me. I've been thinking and thinking about it, and I've come to the conclusion that these constant threats of taking custody of Caylee are very likely the biggest reason Casey took off, and possibly the biggest reason Casey killed Caylee.

My reasoning:

It's always stated as an absolute. She's going to get custody. Not *try* to get custody. It's always stated definitely as if all she has to do is appear before a judge and custody will be given to her.

There are never reasons given. You can't gain custody of your grandchild unless you have reasons, and those reasons have to be strong ones. Like definite, proven abuse.

I'm not saying by any means that Casey was a good parent. What I'm saying is that I don't think you can get custody of your grandchild because you claim your daughter steals (there are no court records to prove this), your daughter goes out and parties a lot (no evidence of drug use), your daughter doesn't support your granchild (you've been supporting her and never withdrawn that support so no way to say that your daughter wouldn't have supported your grandchild just fine.)

So what you have, in essence, is long-term repeated empty threats of taking custody. And the person Cindy is making these threats to already has an underlying big resentment towards Cindy.

Now recall back to the time when Cindy and George were scheduling visits with Casey in jail and Casey was cancelling them. Cindy said, laughing in a snotty kind of way, that she and Casey had "a little tit-for-tat" going back and forth.

Recall also in that phone call when Casey said "don't bother coming up here for the hearing", and Lee actually got upset, saying something about "you're trying to cut us out". As if it was some privelege to get to go to someone's hearing. Whoa. That's backwards. The family was doing Casey a favor by going to the hearing to support her.

So we have two very volatile personalities, very angry and resentful, and we see how making threats to each other is something they use as a way to try to stay in control/gain control over the other. And those tit-for-tat games are... spiteful.

Now recall Casey saying on 6/15 the reason she wouldn't take Cindy to see Caylee is because "maybe I'm a spiteful ". This said at a voice level that, according to Lee, Cindy would definitely hear.

I can soooo imagine these two in a fight and Cindy calling Casey a spiteful . And I can soooo see Casey with all that anger and resentful building and building, saying to herself "well you want to call me a spiteful ? I'll show you just how much of a spiteful I can be. I'll teach you." The ultimate tit-for-tat game, that once and for all ensures that Casey wins.

I probably haven't laid this out very well, but the psychology behind what happened in those last few months, building and building in the final weeks, and then the final days, until Casey killed Caylee, is becoming more and more clear to me as learn more and more about this family.

Please note that I'm not at all saying that Casey snapped or exploded. It actually makes more sense that she would have thought for a very long time about killing Caylee. She would have relished it. Killing Caylee was game, set, and match.

MOO. Your thoughts?

:clap::clap::clap:You said it very well BeanE. Just wanted to add, Cindy even threatened Child Services when she was on hold during her second 911 call. That poor child was a pawn, she was used by both of the mothers in her life.

Worst part, they used the love Caylee had for each of them against each other. Most families would cherish this priceless gift and Cindy and KC used that child til she couldn't be used anymore. Sick, sick, sick.:furious:

 

[gardenhart]

Throughout these documents I'm seeing references from a number of different people about Cindy threatening to get custody of Caylee. It's been bothering me. I've been thinking and thinking about it, and I've come to the conclusion that these constant threats of taking custody of Caylee are very likely the biggest reason Casey took off, and possibly the biggest reason Casey killed Caylee.

My reasoning:

It's always stated as an absolute. She's going to get custody. Not *try* to get custody. It's always stated definitely as if all she has to do is appear before a judge and custody will be given to her.

There are never reasons given. You can't gain custody of your grandchild unless you have reasons, and those reasons have to be strong ones. Like definite, proven abuse.

I'm not saying by any means that Casey was a good parent. What I'm saying is that I don't think you can get custody of your grandchild because you claim your daughter steals (there are no court records to prove this), your daughter goes out and parties a lot (no evidence of drug use), your daughter doesn't support your granchild (you've been supporting her and never withdrawn that support so no way to say that your daughter wouldn't have supported your grandchild just fine.)

So what you have, in essence, is long-term repeated empty threats of taking custody. And the person Cindy is making these threats to already has an underlying big resentment towards Cindy.

Now recall back to the time when Cindy and George were scheduling visits with Casey in jail and Casey was cancelling them. Cindy said, laughing in a snotty kind of way, that she and Casey had "a little tit-for-tat" going back and forth.

Recall also in that phone call when Casey said "don't bother coming up here for the hearing", and Lee actually got upset, saying something about "you're trying to cut us out". As if it was some privelege to get to go to someone's hearing. Whoa. That's backwards. The family was doing Casey a favor by going to the hearing to support her.

So we have two very volatile personalities, very angry and resentful, and we see how making threats to each other is something they use as a way to try to stay in control/gain control over the other. And those tit-for-tat games are... spiteful.

Now recall Casey saying on 6/15 the reason she wouldn't take Cindy to see Caylee is because "maybe I'm a spiteful ". This said at a voice level that, according to Lee, Cindy would definitely hear.

I can soooo imagine these two in a fight and Cindy calling Casey a spiteful . And I can soooo see Casey with all that anger and resentful building and building, saying to herself "well you want to call me a spiteful ? I'll show you just how much of a spiteful I can be. I'll teach you." The ultimate tit-for-tat game, that once and for all ensures that Casey wins.

I probably haven't laid this out very well, but the psychology behind what happened in those last few months, building and building in the final weeks, and then the final days, until Casey killed Caylee, is becoming more and more clear to me as learn more and more about this family.

Please note that I'm not at all saying that Casey snapped or exploded. It actually makes more sense that she would have thought for a very long time about killing Caylee. She would have relished it. Killing Caylee was game, set, and match.

MOO. Your thoughts?

Yes, yes, yes. Very insightful, BeanE.

It was so incredibly stupid of Cindy to threaten instead of simply acting. I imagine Casey got a lot of threats throughout her life that Cindy never followed through, which is part of the problem. Cindy is also, I think, like Casey a very impulsive person who does and says things without thinking out the best course of action or consequences.

I do disagree on one point to a point. No, she couldn't get custody by claiming her daughter was stealing. But she certainly had the proof to have her daughter convicted of stealing.

She could have put a number of things in motion without saying a word until she was ready to act, including getting proof that her daughter was a neglectful mother, using drugs, etc., that would have helped her make a case for getting custody.

I really don't think she wanted custody.

I can't even convince myself that she only threatened because she didn't realize how bad and dangerous the situation was. If she was glossing over and convincing herself it wasn't that bad she wouldn't have seen a therapist about it.

I sorrowfully can only conclude that poor Caylee had no one who cared enough about her to put aside the destructive emotional games and do what was best for her.

 

[gardenhart]

I think it was an IMPLUSIVE act of revenge aganist her mother after that fight. It obvioulsy wasnt planned out and thank goodness for that or she would have gotten away with it. Im wondering if she is rewinding things in her head and thinking "if only" I would have used Amy's money for a ticket to calif instead of food and cloths. "If only" I would have disposed of the body BEFORE it began to decomposr and smell. I do wonder what those night terrors were about, I dont think it was about being caught.....I think she thought she could get away with it.

Reading backwards so I just saw your post. Impulsivity is a real problem in this family.

 

[gardenhart]

Nuh-uh. I really am a Spud Head - mashed, scalloped, boiled and baked.

But, I do agree entirely with your statements.

Well, I do love taters and I have to add fried to your list. LOL

 

[mitzi]

It aired MARCH 18th...

right around the time of the other searches. hmmmm.:waitasec:

 

[debs]

In CA's fbi interview when asked about if casey had suffered any kind of abuse, she said 'not that i know of'
But she seemed to use 'not that I know of' to answer questions that she did know, but wishes she didnt know.

Yet KC says she told her mom about abuse...

In a family of liars, which lie do you believe?

The other thing thats bugging me is if she told her b/f that *** tried to have sex with her, that would mean she wasnt sexually abused. He tried, she said no, end of story. sick yes, but it would not explain all of her behaviours from one small incident imo. He didnt say that the abuse ever actually occurred, only that he tried.
I hate all these riddles, and i'm giving up on to trying to figure it out. just keep going around in circles.

Just to clear one thing up here for you: In Cindy's FBI interview, when asked the question whether there was any type of abuse (sexual, mental, physical, substance) in the house hold, Cindy's posture in the chair changed, got defensive, and her answer was "No." said very meek and nearly childish. That was it. One word. She never elaborated on this question, unlike every question before and after.

 

[Chilly Willy]

At least we now know the shovel wasn't used to bust into the shed to get the gas cans - AL admitted to using a tire iron.

George should press charges.

 

[Friday]

I think it's hilarious that when Casey was practicing writing her "married" name, she misspelled Tony's last name several ways.

That aside, I thiink she was planning to steal one of his checks and claim to be his new wife when she signed and cashed it. If she'd just been daydreaming how her married name would look, why did she cross out most of her attempts?

Just a thought...

 

[Friday]

Oh yes I saw that check too. It's amazing she got away with these forgeries. MOO I'd have to go back and look at it again to see if it went through or not, but I've forgotten where in the documents it is now.

I noticed she listed Jesse Grund as her spouse on her original Amscot application.

 

[Dutchie Treat]

And another weird thought. If she told TonE about abuse and she was also telling him that caylee was babysat by her family most of the time, why didnt that set off alarm bells to him? I know he's a young guy, but wouldnt most people say' maybe you should find someone else to look after your kid, if you were abused, arent you worried they might abuse her too'?

I don't think KC told TonE (or anyone else for that matter) much "truth" or otherwise about herself and her life.

He seemed very hurt and indignant when he texted her after Caylee had turned up "missing", asking her "why didn't you tell me??? I'm your boyfriend".

He loved KC I think and was hurt to find out that there were so many secrets. There are other "paramours" that are secretly hurting now behind closed doors I believe because of what is coming to light about the object of their affections, Miss KC. There are probably some guys right now thanking their God for what ever reason it was that KC did NOT want a relationship with them (think about Will???).

 

[Friday]

Remember when Cindy told LE that she knows who the father is, they went to a lawyer and some legal papers drawn up to name them custodian of caylee in case anything happened to casey. she couldnt remember Erics last name but had the paperwork at home.

LE looked into that and checked with the lawyer and he knew NOTHING about it, never even heard of an Eric. Another example of cindy lieing to LE. What is wrong with her, didnt she think LE would follow up on that.

Are you saying the lawyer know nothing about drawing up paper re custody, or that he didn't know anything about Eric?

 

[OneLostGrl]

Unless its the secrecy and shame of the abuse that got the victim into the habit of lying.
Perps dont say' feel free to tell anyone about this'...they say 'dont tell, or else'.
And if the victim finds the courage to tell someone they trust, and they are not believed(which happens all too often) this would validate the 'live in silence, and deny deny deny' concept, which then becomes a way of life.

Clearly this doesnt apply to all victims, just the ones that stay victims, instead of evolving into survivors, imo.

Great post!

 

[GingBreade]

I don't think KC told TonE (or anyone else for that matter) much "truth" or otherwise about herself and her life.

He seemed very hurt and indignant when he texted her after Caylee had turned up "missing", asking her "why didn't you tell me??? I'm your boyfriend".

He loved KC I think and was hurt to find out that there were so many secrets. There are other "paramours" that are secretly hurting now behind closed doors I believe because of what is coming to light about the object of their affections, Miss KC. There are probably some guys right now thanking their God for what ever reason it was that KC did NOT want a relationship with them (think about Will???).

I agree, except for the part that TonE loved her...he just felt betrayed and didn't know wtf was going on...as for Will, she came to his house the morning after the nothing but clothes party at 9:30 a.m. and they didn't leave until 11:30 a.m. to go to IKEA for house furnishings...hmm I wonder what they talked about during that time? :waitasec:

Will and all the rest should be thanking their lucky stars that she didn't want much to do with them, as she was too busy working.:bang:

 

[OneLostGrl]

I agree.

I'd extend that thought to also include the many threads and posts that include 'comparative' pyschiatric diagnosis of KC and the A's, based upon personal experiences.

I appreciate reading, and am often moved by the courage many here have displayed in moving forwards, without letting their own personal hurdles to ultimately impact they way they choose to live their lives. Many are deserving of both sympathy and kudos.

That said, each individual is unique. As is each scenario.

I've yet to read a post here from a victim, diagnosed sufferer or anyone else that I would put in the same category as KC. Or even CA.

It's very educational to share and learn, but unfortunately, KC's circumstances are/were unique, too.

I also find myself relating to certain things that are done, said and supposed, but on the other hand, I know that I lived my experiences, not theirs.

Bottom-line is that while many here are wise and have walked the walk, I don't personally believe that anyone here has had the exact circumstances in play emotionally, with the exact same real or imagined abuses, with psych over-lays and whatnot, in play in exactly the same manner.

We have to stand back a bit and use our knowledge to try to understand and to educate, without assuming that our experience IS the same as KC's. Some aspects MAY BE similiar, but just as your own have their own nuances, so to does KC's.

Hope that makes sense.

My heart goes out to each and every one of you have have survived SA, emotional abuse, physical abuse and/or pyschiatric dysfunctions in your lives. BTDT, just remember that YOUR story is YOUR own - and should never be judged, minimized or lumped into a 'like' basket with others, just because they understand. Nor should KC's.

She chose a path NONE of us have. That's the difference that should be remembered when trying to draw like parallels.

While you make some good points I think some others are just not very informed to be honest. In order to be diagnosed with an illness one must meet certain criteria. Everyone must meet approx. 4 of 7 "symptoms" of an illness, otherwise you cannot be given a diagnosis. Everyone has to meet the same criteria, it does not change depending on the person. If you don't have these specific symptoms then you do not have this illness.

So, while of course no one here has had the "exact" experiences as one another or as Casey, many of the actions and behaviors of people with the same illness are lumped into a "like" basket. How on earth do you think studies are done? Where do you think statistics come from?! Why do you think they interview serial killers to try to get into their mind and understand why they do what they do? Why would there be self-help groups and types of therapy that are illness specific? How would psychiatrists and therapists be able to author books that are illness specific and have overwhelming praise for their descriptions of the illness if our symptoms are all that different from each others?

 

[OneLostGrl]

I noticed she listed Jesse Grund as her spouse on her original Amscot application.

huh. no kidding? I didn't even notice that.

 

[Bobbisangel]

I am trying to figure out I can read the new docs that just came out. When I click on the pdf..I think that is right...all I get is a little square on the upper left hand corner of my screen..it is red, white, and blue. Do I need to download something? If so what would that be? Thanks ahead of time.