GUILTY NH - Abby Hernandez, 14, North Conway, 9 Oct 2013 - #15

[Steleheart]

I agree, sstarr...and also agree with catfancier. we don't know how early on the alleged violence took place.

and my point was in no way trying to sleuth the victim, there's nothing to sleuth anyway...I'm pointing out the inconsistency here. LE saw the same abby that her mother did upon her return july 20th. and perhaps in the past week, as attorneys were retained for the family, the victim has opened up more, to them versus investigators (feeling of safety, as in, knowing what she states is protected by privilege). I'm only saying that I saw the same abby as LE..."unharmed", superficially at the very least.

I still don't understand why a busy road in total darkness is a 'safe place' to 'release' her, but I'm not a local, maybe it's a very teen-friendly drop-off location...you can't have it both ways, so we wait to hear what additional charges are brought forth. I guess that's all I'm trying to say.

In the beginning I said 'wait, 10:30 at night on North South Road in the dark is not a safe place - didn't a young girl get abducted from there last fall in broad daylight?'
(snarky) The point being, in the statute I felt that it was understood a "safe place" would be a hospital, police station, clinic, fire station, even a public shopping center.

Then I started thinking... This is a minor charge in a 9 month horror show. It may be an effort to lessen the charge as a way to entice him to admit his guilt, ask for a plea or plead no-lo to the kidnapping or at least broach the topic before more charges are added. remember that his lawyer declined to enter a plea even though the presumption of innocence is the basis of the law. His strategy was supposedly based on his lack of info, so lack of info, IMO = not guilty - so why delay? To push the issue of disclosure? I do not think so, as he had an excellent argument in favor of releasing the affidavits to the defense only. The judge, at that point, could have entered a not guilty plea on his behalf. He has that right. This was only an arraignment after all.

http://www.wmur.com/news/raw-video-...abby-hernandez-disappearance/27209250#!bEVZgB

No. North South Road is not a safe place at 10:30 in the dark when we are still unsure how a 14 y.o. girl disappeared there Oct 9, last fall between 2:30 and 3:00 in the afternoon.. I've been there and honestly, it's dark at night and busy in the day.

So there is something else and I have a feeling it is part of an excellent strategy in a long process. I also think that the defense atty. understood how far this is likely to go.

This is just my opinion and that is why "the cow says... :cow: "

 

[margarita25]

Another case reminiscent of Abby's, about a woman who was held captive and escaped:
http://www.northkitsapherald.com/news/270930451.html
"Kitsap County Sheriff's Office deputies were able to track the captive woman down after the man moved her to a shed behind his parents' home..."

 

[tlcya]

(I can't pull up boston globe articles as I've reached my limit, i believe this article is based on theirs)

http://www./1411134/abigail-hernandezs-lawyer-she-suffered-unspeakable-violence/

"Coyne, a professor and dean-elect of the Massachusetts School Of Law, according to the school’s website, could not be reached for comment. Nor could Jane Young, New Hampshire Associate Attorney General and lead prosecutor in this case. Keiran Ramsey, assistant special agent in charge of the Boston division that covers New Hampshire, declined comment until a criminal complaint is unsealed."

so that makes two of them, that want documents unsealed. rare, IMO, for two opposing sides, no?

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/07/...rnandez-kidnapping-to-be-arraigned-in-conway/

"The judge denied public defender Jesse Friedman’s request to unseal affidavits, search warrants and other investigative material before the hearing. Friedman argued it was impossible for him to begin to defend Kibby without knowing the facts that led to his arrest."

The BBM portion does not indicate to me that Mr. Ramsey wants the affidavits unsealed. It means he is not commenting on the statement released by Coyne because it would mean commenting on information that would appear to be within the sealed docs.

At least that is how I take the above.

 

[skibaboo]

I agree with bill...river and tlcya, we've not heard abby's version, we've heard her lawyer's version.
I said the same thing bill did two pages ago and got hammered. so i'll rephrase myself:

RSBM

Rabbit, I'm sorry if my response made you feel like you were jumped on. I thought long and hard about posting my response to what the lawyer said. The details in this case, from LE especially have at times been very guarded, verging on cryptic. To hear details, from any verifiable source is hard not to react to, for me personally. I have been strongly invested in this case since day 1 and have my own thoughts and theories about what happened, and continue to do so since AH returned. Call me naive but I took the lawyers statement more as validating my own thoughts than just taking their word for it and I think I may have got a little defensive (I've had a rough week) and for that I apologise.

We all have one goal here, justice for whatever crime has been committed to be served. No hard feelings Rabbit

 

[newguy123]

I know it was interesting to me that the defence lawyer claimed his client was not guilty but did not enter that as a plea. (A world of difference though between saying not guilty and actually entering that as a plea in court). As a sheep among wolves in the legal world, I would have had my lawyer stand up and pronounce "Not Guilty" regardless of what the State has charged me with. If I didn't do it, I would be proclaiming my innocence to the world, esp since I know as an accused I would smeared in the media even before my trial. So Steleheart's musings got me wondering again about that whole business.
As for a release at night on a busy road.......maybe "released safely" is, again, a matter of perspective. If she was in that shipping container and being abused, then a release almost anywhere is a safer place even if not exactly safe.

 

[BillNH]

I agree, sstarr...and also agree with catfancier. we don't know how early on the alleged violence took place.

and my point was in no way trying to sleuth the victim, there's nothing to sleuth anyway...I'm pointing out the inconsistency here. LE saw the same abby that her mother did upon her return july 20th. and perhaps in the past week, as attorneys were retained for the family, the victim has opened up more, to them versus investigators (feeling of safety, as in, knowing what she states is protected by privilege). I'm only saying that I saw the same abby as LE..."unharmed", superficially at the very least.

I still don't understand why a busy road in total darkness is a 'safe place' to 'release' her, but I'm not a local, maybe it's a very teen-friendly drop-off location...

you can't have it both ways, so we wait to hear what additional charges are brought forth. I guess that's all I'm trying to say.

BBM
I suspect that in pertaining to a kidnap victim a "safe place" would be any place free of imminent, obvious or inherent danger. A kidnapper would not qualify for a class B if the victim was released in the middle of the ocean or blindfolded and released on an 8 lane highway during rush hour for example. Where he dropped her off, IMO, would not be considered an inherently unsafe place. A quiet street at that hour, near her home where she walked on a regular basis would be considered safe. Only due to her specific circumstances would it potentially be considered unsafe beyond what one would normally think of a quiet road in a small town at 10pm on a Sunday.

 

[BillNH]

I also think if the only safe places are hospitals, police stations, fire stations, etc. then you would never get a kidnap victim returned and those places would be named specifically in the law. As for shopping centers...just shows the difference in how people think as I believe a public shopping center is where many predators hang out and stalk their prey, and I think many abductions happen in shopping centers and mall parking lots. One of my biggest fears since my kids were young was them going to malls with friends just for that reason. I still worry some about my daughter at 19, but less so since she just became a US Marine.

 

[SStarr33]

I know it was interesting to me that the defence lawyer claimed his client was not guilty but did not enter that as a plea. (A world of difference though between saying not guilty and actually entering that as a plea in court). As a sheep among wolves in the legal world, I would have had my lawyer stand up and pronounce "Not Guilty" regardless of what the State has charged me with. If I didn't do it, I would be proclaiming my innocence to the world, esp since I know as an accused I would smeared in the media even before my trial. So Steleheart's musings got me wondering again about that whole business.
As for a release at night on a busy road.......maybe "released safely" is, again, a matter of perspective. If she was in that shipping container and being abused, then a release almost anywhere is a safer place even if not exactly safe.

He said he was not guilty at the emergency hearing about moving the trailer. You don't enter a plea at that type of hearing.

 

[newguy123]

Yes I remember at the arraignment hearing he did not enter a plea, but later at the other hearing said he was not guilty. But was that entered into the court records as his plea or was that just the lawyer saying his client was not guilty?
Whatever the case, it will play itself out soon enough.

 

[Steleheart]

en

I also think if the only safe places are hospitals, police stations, fire stations, etc. then you would never get a kidnap victim returned and those places would be named specifically in the law. As for shopping centers...just shows the difference in how people think as I believe a public shopping center is where many predators hang out and stalk their prey, and I think many abductions happen in shopping centers and mall parking lots. One of my biggest fears since my kids were young was them going to malls with friends just for that reason. I still worry some about my daughter at 19, but less so since she just became a US Marine.

So let me understand. If Abby were dropped at the mall she would be at greater risk? Greater than on that dark road? If it were your 19 year old daughter, and understand my 2 are 20 and 24 and I worry too, so I get it - But given the law describing a 'safe place' where would you want your child let go?

A dark lonely road? Serious question.

There is a hospital not far from there - push her out and speed away. I cannot imagine how scared she was in those same clothes now in the dark, walking down that same road.

That's not a safe place for my girls, not my girls, no.

So legit question - what is the legal definition of a 'safe place' ?

Just shows the difference in how people think...

:moo: :cow:

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I also think if the only safe places are hospitals, police stations, fire stations, etc. then you would never get a kidnap victim returned and those places would be named specifically in the law. As for shopping centers...just shows the difference in how people think as I believe a public shopping center is where many predators hang out and stalk their prey, and I think many abductions happen in shopping centers and mall parking lots. One of my biggest fears since my kids were young was them going to malls with friends just for that reason. I still worry some about my daughter at 19, but less so since she just became a US Marine.

How often do we hear about those cases? They would definitely be posted here. I can think of a few over a period of 20 years, presumably b/c of how brazen they are, more likely to get attention and stick in our heads years later.

 

[Steleheart]

How often do we hear about those cases? They would definitely be posted here. I can think of a few over a period of 20 years, presumably b/c of how brazen they are, more likely to get attention and stick in our heads years later.

Indeed, when has someone been abducted from the Mall. I missed it.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Indeed, when has someone been abducted from the Mall. I missed it.

Dru Sjodin
Alice Donovan
It is late so one name is slipping my mind right now but one victim was a woman who was abducted from a parking lot in Central Jersey around 1994.

 

[inthedark14]

Dru Sjodin
Alice Donovan
It is late so one name is slipping my mind right now but one victim was a woman who was abducted from a parking lot in Central Jersey around 1994.

The Lyons sisters.

 

[CatFancier]

There are many teen girls from the 70s and 80s in the older threads, went to a mall, movie theatre or strip mall and never came home. But I would still think it would be safer for Abby than that dark road if the mall was open and well lit.

Edited to add a few:

Adam Walsh, 1981
Julie Moseley, Lisa Wilson and Mary Trlica, 1974
Ann Gotlib, 1983
Julie Ferguson, 1995
Nicole Madere, 2000
Amy Mihaljevic, 1989
Chelsea Hopkins, 2013

 

[Steleheart]

Indeed, when has someone been abducted from the Mall. I missed it.

Dru Sjodin
Alice Donovan
It is late so one name is slipping my mind right now but one victim was a woman who was abducted from a parking lot in Central Jersey around 1994.

The Lyons sisters.

There are many teen girls from the 70s and 80s in the older threads, went to a mall, movie theatre or strip mall and never came home. But I would still think it would be safer for Abby than that dark road if the mall was open and well lit.

Edited to add a few:

Dru Sjodin:
Sjodin left the mall and began walking to her 1994 Oldsmobile Cutlass. During this time, Sjodin was speaking with boyfriend, Chris Lang, on her cell phone. Ten minutes into their conversation, Lang reports Sjodin was saying "Okay, okay," before the call abruptly ended.+

PARKING LOT, NOT THE MALL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Dru_Sjodin

Alice Donovan:
"Donovan, 44, of Galivants Ferry, was abducted Nov. 14, 2002, from the Conway Wal-Mart parking lot by two men who escaped from a Kentucky jail."

PARKING LOT, NOT THE MALL.

http://www.scnow.com/news/local/article_757482b0-17ca-5e2d-a013-57c5158e6617.html


The Lyons sisters:
"2:30 to 3:00 PM: A friend sees the girls walking westward down a street near the mall which would have been one of the most direct routes from the mall to their home."

DOWN A STREET, NOT THE MALL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyon_sisters

I love it when anyone disputes what I say, but please pay attention to what I actually say, thanks.

and Cat, Yes they WENT to the mall and never came home. But can anyone tell me my kid would not be better dropped in the food court than the parking lot/ roadway?

SAFE Place is the issue in the statute.

So again, who has been abducted from a Mall, I missed it.

:cow: :moo:

 

[Steleheart]

There are many teen girls from the 70s and 80s in the older threads, went to a mall, movie theatre or strip mall and never came home. But I would still think it would be safer for Abby than that dark road if the mall was open and well lit.

Edited to add a few:

Adam Walsh, 1981
Julie Moseley, Lisa Wilson and Mary Trlica, 1974
Ann Gotlib, 1983
Julie Ferguson, 1995
Nicole Madere, 2000
Amy Mihaljevic, 1989
Chelsea Hopkins, 2013[/QUOTE]


Yer killin me! LOL Ok I will do more work.

My point is still the same . haha

:thinking:

 

[Steleheart]

There are many teen girls from the 70s and 80s in the older threads, went to a mall, movie theatre or strip mall and never came home. But I would still think it would be safer for Abby than that dark road if the mall was open and well lit.

Edited to add a few:

Adam Walsh, 1981
Julie Moseley, Lisa Wilson and Mary Trlica, 1974
Ann Gotlib, 1983
Julie Ferguson, 1995
Nicole Madere, 2000
Amy Mihaljevic, 1989
Chelsea Hopkins, 2013[/QUOTE]


Yer killin me! LOL Ok I will do more work.

My point is still the same . haha

:thinking:

Adam Walsh, 1981
Adam was abducted from inside the mall, yes, but he was a tiny toddler, not a teen, but.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Adam_Walsh


Julie Moseley, Lisa Wilson and Mary Trlica, 1974:
"Authorities believe they returned to the car..."
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/moseley_julie.html


Ann Gotlib, 1983:
"She was visiting Bashford Manor Mall, across the street from the apartment complex where she lived with her family. Her bike was later found outside the Bacon's Department Store at the mall."
Was she abducted FROM there or was her bike dropped there later? Not clear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Gotlib


On and On and I could do some more, but the point was, is a safe place a shopping center or a dark road.

"Safe Place" as in NH RSA 133, Interference with freedom;
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/lxii/633/633-mrg.htm


It is not found in the definitions and leaves open to counsel the very classification of the charge IMO.

ETA: I only use Wiki when I want a quick link - at least I use links, :banghead:

I swear my pig said :cow:

 

[CatFancier]

Adam Walsh, 1981
Adam was abducted from inside the mall, yes, but he was a tiny toddler, not a teen, but.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Adam_Walsh

You are probably right that most we some of think of as abducted from a mall may have been on mall property outside rather than inside. But, Adam Walsh was 6, not a tiny toddler...

And I can't imagine Kibby would have brought Abby inside a mall to drop her off (if he did) but rather to the parking lot. Agreed, the mall parking lot, unless it was midnight and totally dark, is probably safer than the dark road.

 

[Steleheart]

I wish to say this so please indulge me;
I am not an educated person and I realize that some of my posts of late may seem to be snarky / trollish. I am sorry for that. I usually try to be clear and factual in my posts. I think it is important when we endeavor to sleuth, discover, research and otherwise assist in the solving of crimes, especially those of missing persons, and in my case, missing children, to be thorough and precise.
Some posters will understand that many of us, Cat, Bessie, Look, Take, Ski, Clu, Mamaj, Mom, Tlc, Rad, Salem and so many others, have had a large emotional stake in this particular case for any of a variety of reasons. But there is something else.
The compassion that is involved in looking, researching and sleuthing, calling in tips, and actually doing something, rather than just the jibber jabber of a chat box, is for some of us here, more than just an interest or a time filler. It is something we are driven to. I cannot explain it.+

So when some of us insist on keeping with TOS and the Spirit of Websleuths, it is because we understand the goal here. It is that goal that kept me from registering on other sites.

Abby is home.

That was the goal.

I would love, love, love to see her discussion thread closed. not deleted, but closed.

SOLVED.

I would love to see a Kibby thread Where this minor victim is only referred to with initials.

I needed, for many reason, to get that out in type, not just for my own spirit, but for anyone who may be feeling the same.

This has been one very intense case.

:loveyou:

Stele.


:cow: