NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female & 3 Children, found Nov'85 & May'00

[KaylaraOwl]

There has been a lot of discussion in the Lyle Stevik thread about attached earlobes and Native Americans. The unrelated child clearly has attached earlobes. Is that just an artist's interpretation in this case?

Yes. Her remains were skeletal when found.

 

[carbuff]

In the forensics class I took a couple of years ago, they told us that some facial features leave marks on the skull that can indicate where that feature was placed. So for instance when they can tell whether someone's eyes had a downward tilt at the outer corner because of the way the muscles attach to the side of the eye socket. I don't recall that they mentioned ears, but it seems rather strange that they would show attached earlobes if she didn't have them when the vast majority of the population has unattached earlobes.

 

[Roselvr]

There has been a lot of discussion in the Lyle Stevik thread about attached earlobes and Native Americans. The unrelated child clearly has attached earlobes. Is that just an artist's interpretation in this case?

Artists interpretation. They were skeletal so no ears on remains

I agree. Unless he was really lazy and stupid, or just plain cocky, no killer would dump bodies so close to where they lived and risk the bodies being discovered. Plus, from what else I've read, people/kids walked through the pathway near where they were found, to go to the store, and someone who lived in that trailer park would know that, too. That's why I think it was a dump job, someone who knew the area but didn't live
nearby. I also think it was done in winter or else the bodies would be buried, but that's my conclusion, it has no basis in fact.
If you have the time, you should watch the raw press coverage video released last November. It's fascinating and has a lot of information in it. But, to answer your question, they have limited DNA profiles on each of them, but they did compare the DNA of all four of them. The results were: the woman, the oldest child and the youngest child are maternally related, but the second child is not known to be related at this time. That doesn't mean they aren't, just that the DNA associations that they have available don't match so they don't know. They explain it better in the video. Here's a link to it- it is long but worth the watch, IMHO:

I think cold weather is logical, possible he was going to go back to grab the drums when it got warmer but he moved or was in jail.

Bodies are seldom buried in New England because there aren't many places where the topsoil is more than a couple of feet thick. Cemeteries often have to blast to make room for the vaults. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the person planned to bury them but then used barrels that were already lying around when he found out he couldn't dig deep enough. Not saying it happened that way, just that it wouldn't surprise me.

In the forensics class I took a couple of years ago, they told us that some facial features leave marks on the skull that can indicate where that feature was placed. So for instance when they can tell whether someone's eyes had a downward tilt at the outer corner because of the way the muscles attach to the side of the eye socket. I don't recall that they mentioned ears, but it seems rather strange that they would show attached earlobes if she didn't have them when the vast majority of the population has unattached earlobes.

Your input is very much appreciated!

 

[Aleph]

Not all of the remains were skeletal because we know about the double-pierced ears. Or was it only the bodies that were found later that were completely skeletal?


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[Owutatangledweb]

What does everybody think about Nicole Bryner. I think there is a very strong resemblence.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...&dq=mary+ann+verdecchia&pg=5341,4798500&hl=en

I know the following the following article says there was an alleged confession but there could have been lies there too. They could have given her away or the confession could have been False, or the LE could have been hot for a suspect. I think there is enough of a resemblance to ignore it. The timing, age, and geography is right too. Just need to look at the isotopes map. Haven't done that yet.

http://patch.com/pennsylvania/north...icole-lynn-bryner-s-body-never-found-f254e743

 

[Roselvr]

Not all of the remains were skeletal because we know about the double-pierced ears. Or was it only the bodies that were found later that were completely skeletal?


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I guess ears could have been left

 

[KaylaraOwl]

Not all of the remains were skeletal because we know about the double-pierced ears. Or was it only the bodies that were found later that were completely skeletal?


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My understanding was. That the first two who were found had some tissue left, the the second two were completely skeletonized.

 

[Alleykins]

Does anyone else find it odd that the perpetrator put the two largest victims together in one barrel, instead of the adult/one toddler and the oldest child/the other toddler? Didn't they say those two in the first barrel were dismembered? If so, it was probably done to make them fit into the barrel. Why go through all the trouble when the killer could have just put them in differently?
All I can think of is this was either a hasty dump job with very little thought put into or the person wasn't very smart.

 

[Alleykins]

the the second two were completely skeletonized.

That was probably due to the 15 year difference between discovering the barrels.
The victims in the second barrel probably would have been in the same stage of decomposition as the first two victims if they had been found together.

 

[KaylaraOwl]

That was probably due to the 15 year difference between discovering the barrels.
The victims in the second barrel probably would have been in the same stage of decomposition as the first two victims if they had been found together.

That was my thought as well.

 

[Roselvr]

Does anyone else find it odd that the perpetrator put the two largest victims together in one barrel, instead of the adult/one toddler and the oldest child/the other toddler? Didn't they say those two in the first barrel were dismembered? If so, it was probably done to make them fit into the barrel. Why go through all the trouble when the killer could have just put them in differently?
All I can think of is this was either a hasty dump job with very little thought put into or the person wasn't very smart.

I think just the opposite. I think a lot of thought was given to put the mom with her 1st child then the 2 little ones which are most likely 1/2 sisters that share a father. It makes me think he cared about his 2 daughters being together. I wonder if he regretted killing the 2 little ones after it was over.

 

[Alleykins]

I think just the opposite. I think a lot of thought was given to put the mom with her 1st child then the 2 little ones which are most likely 1/2 sisters that share a father. It makes me think he cared about his 2 daughters being together. I wonder if he regretted killing the 2 little ones after it was over.

I was looking for an explanation as to the placement, so that fits. It just seemed like a lot of trouble to go through without some sort of reasoning behind it, but I couldn't think of one. Yours makes sense.

 

[Alleykins]

At about :42 of the Crime Watch video they show footage of a body of water.
Does anyone know how close it was to where the victims were found or is it just some sort of stock video and has nothing to do with the crime scene?

 

[Owutatangledweb]

Been trying to trace the unrelated child a bit and came across this unidentified deceased Native American woman. I really wish DNA was easier to do.

http://www.nativetimes.com/index.php/news/crime/7496-help-solve-this-31-year-old-crime

 

[Springrain]

I wonder if the unrelated child could have been Abenaki. In VT, they have a lot of Abenaki people. I know the DNA tests said that she was probably raised further West, but it's a thought. I bet her mother is still alive, in a different part of the country, and under the impression, perhaps, that the girl's father (i.e. possibly the four's killer) has custody of her.

What I imagine could be a scenario is that the unrelated girl is listed as a missing person, but the woman and her two children aren't. I imagine that the woman's husband was the father of the youngest child (as well as the middle child), and was the typical abuser that isolated them from society, and they had no one else to report them missing. I'm betting that the woman was a teen mother and may have fallen into drugs, and then she took up with a man who turned out to be an abuser.

 

[Alleykins]

What I imagine could be a scenario is that the unrelated girl is listed as a missing person

I'm leaning in that direction as well. Where the middle child has no known relationship to the others at this time, I think it's safe to conclude that she has a family out there, wholly unconnected to the other 3, that may be looking for her.

 

[carbuff]

At about :42 of the Crime Watch video they show footage of a body of water.
Does anyone know how close it was to where the victims were found or is it just some sort of stock video and has nothing to do with the crime scene?

There are several ponds and small lakes nearby. I'm not sure exactly which one that one is; maybe one of the WS'ers who is more familiar with the area can identify it for sure.

 

[Roselvr]

I was looking for an explanation as to the placement, so that fits. It just seemed like a lot of trouble to go through without some sort of reasoning behind it, but I couldn't think of one. Yours makes sense.

I agree, why dismember the lady (was the oldest girl dismembered too?) when she would fit with the youngest girl and the oldest with middle should have been able to fit.

I wonder if the unrelated child could have been Abenaki. In VT, they have a lot of Abenaki people. I know the DNA tests said that she was probably raised further West, but it's a thought. I bet her mother is still alive, in a different part of the country, and under the impression, perhaps, that the girl's father (i.e. possibly the four's killer) has custody of her.

What I imagine could be a scenario is that the unrelated girl is listed as a missing person, but the woman and her two children aren't. I imagine that the woman's husband was the father of the youngest child (as well as the middle child), and was the typical abuser that isolated them from society, and they had no one else to report them missing. I'm betting that the woman was a teen mother and may have fallen into drugs, and then she took up with a man who turned out to be an abuser.

She has a mother out there unless he killed her too.
I've always figured she was 14 or 15 when she gave birth.

 

[Alleykins]

There are several ponds and small lakes nearby. I'm not sure exactly which one that one is; maybe one of the WS'ers who is more familiar with the area can identify it for sure.

Thanks, Carbuff.
I was curious to know if it were within spitting distance. Our one serial killer in Maine (James Hicks) dismembered his victims, tossed the parts into a nearby body of water and buried his victims in dry wall buckets, except for the last one, who he placed up north in the Maine woods. I'm thinking he disposed of his third victim that way because he no longer had access to the property where he buried the first two. He was the first person I thought of as a potential suspect when I read about this case. He was in construction and not arrested until 1982, which means he could have been anywhere. He strangled his victims, though, and they were all adult females, no children, so that part doesn't fit his MO, but the rest of the similarities gives me chills.

 

[carbuff]

Thanks, Carbuff.
I was curious to know if it were within spitting distance. Our one serial killer in Maine (James Hicks) dismembered his victims, tossed the parts into a nearby body of water and buried his victims in dry wall buckets, except for the last one, who he placed up north in the Maine woods. I'm thinking he disposed of his third victim that way because he no longer had access to the property where he buried the first two. He was the first person I thought of as a potential suspect when I read about this case. He was in construction and not arrested until 1982, which means he could have been anywhere. He strangled his victims, though, and they were all adult females, no children, so that part doesn't fit his MO, but the rest of the similarities gives me chills.

I had not heard of this guy before. That is just plain creepy.